DEV 136 About the rework of the armor problem: Greneer armor like corpus shield

[Chewarette]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

In my opinion, the best solution is to hard cap armor at around 50% damage reduction, and instead scale enemies HP. This way, you get far more consistent effective HP pools and majority of weapon damage types and weapons become viable. Some damage types will still have advantages against specific enemies (as they should), but when enemies have 80% damage reduction from armor, instead of 90%, that is not exactly fixing the issue. 

Currently, Armor is everything, so Corrosive and CP are here to save the day, yet you're saying Viral+Slash are the way to go.

And you propose to ... reduce Armor reduction and increase the HP, so that it would somehow solve the problem ? In my book, this will only make Viral mandatory.

[(PSN)thegarada]

59 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Currently, Armor is everything, so Corrosive and CP are here to save the day, yet you're saying Viral+Slash are the way to go.

And you propose to ... reduce Armor reduction and increase the HP, so that it would somehow solve the problem ? In my book, this will only make Viral mandatory.

Corrosive is one of the better procs, and recommended on most guns, but viral+slash on a melee weapon is the main way to go. Why bother with removing armor when you can bypass it? Nothing comes remotely close at the current level of melee weapons power. When I say I need 2 sec tops to kill a level 150 bombard, I was not exaggerating. All I need is 4-5 hits. 

I do think that viral should be weaker than it currently is, but reducing enemies armor would do S#&$ to change anything. In the stream DE used an example of high level high armor mob saying the armor decreases from ~7,500 to like ~5,500 under the armor redesign. Does that even remotely matter?!

Edited January 20, 2020 by (PS4)thegarada

[Chewarette]

14 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Corrosive is one of the better procs, and recommended on most guns, but viral+slash on a melee weapon is the main way to go. Why bother with removing armor when you can bypass it? Nothing comes remotely close at the current level of melee weapons power. When I say I need 2 sec tops to kill a level 150 bombard, I was not exaggerating. All I need is 4-5 hits. 

 

Do you know elements are not only statuses ?

If you're only thinking with "Status proc", then why do you even need Slash if you kill the enemy in 2 seconds ?

And on which starchart node does the enemy army only consist of Bombards ? 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Chewarette

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-01-19 at 1:49 PM, Corvid said:

You will in Proxima nodes.

Apart from the Gokstad Officers and Assassination targets, Grineer troops in Empyrean have base 200 Armour -- it's no more than normal Grineer units' Armour.

They are tankier than regular Grineer of the same level, it's true, but that's from having many hit-points, so it's not relevent to a thread about Armour.

(Also, there's no requirement to kill those ones to complete the missions. Only necessary to use damage-buffing frame if the player is determined to kill them, but that's the player's choice. The only Grineer footsoldier that must be killed to complete a mission is the Assassination target, which is a mini-boss, so it's supposed to be quite tough.)

[Tsukinoki]

On 2020-01-19 at 12:32 PM, Annnoth said:

Armor was always a thing. Grineer heavies did have shields ON TOP of ho and armor though.

In fact armor used tk be way worse than what we have now. The ONLY saving grace was 20% of the weapons in the game just ignored it.

Ahh, the "good old days" of serrated blade damage.
Double damage to light infested, and ignores armor.  Made the flux rifle one hell of a weapon that could actually hold its own.

Though there was armor piercing damage that came in Mod form so that any weapon can have some damage that ignores damage.

On 2020-01-19 at 4:29 AM, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

So whats the difference with shield? What armor means to players then? If we have both armor and shield as value, then which 1 will get hit first if damaged? If armor takes the hit and depleted, will it regenerate? If not that means a HUGE nerf to armored enemies, but if its regenerate, then its no different with shield. Have you take into account the damage type that can bypass armor like slash? If increased level only increased armor value and not hp, then most high level enemies will die in an instant, and we already powerful enough without this "NERF" 

Also brings up a few other questions:
How will this impact Frost?  His snowglobe depends on his armor for its health calculation so what happens if his armor get depleted?
How huge of a nerf will this have to players in long survival runs if armor doesn't regenerate?  Especially for frames like Inaros or Nidus that don't have shields sitting ontop of their armor?  Even Valkyr would be hit extra hard since she has low shields and high armor so she can be an "in your face" type frame and yet her armor would just be stripped away, and fairly quickly at that.
I mean a Valkyr has around 2300 armor for a lot of builds and that wouldn't take that long for it to be stripped away and leave her rather defenseless.  Further how would it work with Warcry?  That grants 50% bonus armor for a duration (unless you have eternal war) so how would that work?  And it would actually make eternal war a direct detriment to you since you lose the ability to recast warcry while its active...
How would it work with scarab swarm which grants 100% bonus armor?  Would that just tick down as well?

On 2020-01-19 at 3:41 AM, (XB1)Nerf Napalm said:

What do you think?

I think that you need to sit down and seriously think of how this will impact players and what it means for the different frames.

I mean you have to consider what this means for frames who specialize in stripping armor...now that armor is kinda pointless with your idea and can be stripped by anything rather quickly and for free.  I mean why bring a frame with an augment to strip armor when you can just do that far faster, and without a cost to your frame build or energy, with a gun?
You also have to consider what this means for abilities that are based on armor, and general player survivability.

Plus its a good thing IMO that armor and shields work differently.  If they didn't why bother having both when its just redundant?  Why not just have shields and shields?

[Annnoth]

1 minute ago, Tsukinoki said:

Ahh, the "good old days" of serrated blade damage.
Double damage to light infested, and ignores armor.  Made the flux rifle one hell of a weapon that could actually hold its own.

Though there was armor piercing damage that came in Mod form so that any weapon can have some damage that ignores damage.

Tripple damage actually. But dont get serrated blade confused the blade damage, one ignores armor and thats the only difference! For... some reason. 

Damage 1.0 was magical. I still dont know how people figured out the names for these damage types. 

[Tsukinoki]

Just now, Annnoth said:

Tripple damage actually. But dont get serrated blade confused the blade damage, one ignores armor and thats the only difference! For... some reason. 

Damage 1.0 was magical. I still dont know how people figured out the names for these damage types. 

Ahh yes, slight mistake on my part..though TBF crawlers took only 1.5x damage which muddied the waters a bit since crawlers weren't "light infested" units back in the day, which is actually another difference with Bladed damage: Bladed damage dealt 3x damage to walkers and crawlers as well!  But not chargers, while serrated blade dealt 3x damage to walkers and chargers but not crawlers.
And remember that Physics Impact damage ignored armor unless the target was a Seeker, Commander, or Roller which just further confused things on the damage you were going to do!

Damage 1.0 was so hard to keep track of and I'm surprised that we were able to adapt to the system so well back in the day and actually complain about the damage changes when they made the great switch.
I'm glad the system was simplified the way it was otherwise this game would be so much harder to figure out.

[(PSN)thegarada]

7 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Do you know elements are not only statuses ?

If you're only thinking with "Status proc", then why do you even need Slash if you kill the enemy in 2 seconds ?

And on which starchart node does the enemy army only consist of Bombards ? 

It helps to know what you are talking about.

 Slash damage's status effect is Bleed, lacerating the enemy with a damage over time effect that deals damage equal to Base Damage × Bleed Multiplier per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds as  True damage.

Assuming your damage is primarily slash and viral and have 100% stats, the 1-2 bleed ticks from the first slash proc will deal significant damage to enemy, with already halfed HP. With berserker, you can hit 2-3 hits per sec. Which means you can easily stack ~2 bleed procs in one sec, for 4-5 ticks. That deals more damage than your actual damage, unless enemy is robotic or a boss (they are more resistant to bleeds).

And who gives a flying #*!% what is on the star chart. This is not a question of how fast you can kill level 40 mobs (1 hit from anything well modded). Also, where the #*!% did I say that the enemy consist only of bombards?! I used them as an example, and whenever they show up they are priority due to their high AOE damage and CC. 

 

[Chewarette]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Assuming your damage is primarily slash and viral and have 100% stats, the 1-2 bleed ticks from the first slash proc will deal significant damage to enemy, with already halfed HP. With berserker, you can hit 2-3 hits per sec. Which means you can easily stack ~2 bleed procs in one sec, for 4-5 ticks. That deals more damage than your actual damage, unless enemy is robotic or a boss (they are more resistant to bleeds).

Assuming. And assuming your 100% status chance doesn't decide to only apply Viral procs, unless you have a weapon with specific combo force-applying Slash, then you spammed for not much benefit, while a weapon with correct damage bonus (+75%) will have killed your Bombard Army in 1 or 2 hits, instead of 4-5.

Whatever floats your boat anyway, that's not as if that will make a huge difference. At least in Grineer levels.

[KnightCole]

SOoo, armor is just becoming shields in a different color?  Then why not just remove armor and give us all shields?

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

DE is killing its own game 😂, its funny because i jumped from another game that the own devs killed it (planetside2).

 

we have tons of options to bypass armor, a cheap modded dread can kill any armored mob with 2-3 hits starting from lvl200.

 

Endgame its totaly boring for vets. Instead of nerfing mobs u shud buff they, give corpus they own armor type for every mob, like proto armor that get reduced by magnetic, like ferrite with corrosive. And fossilized for every infested that get reduced by blast procs, like corro for ferrite. Let corrosive only reduce ferrite, and buff rad dmg even more to alloy.

 

Each faction with its own armor, that get reduced by it own counter proc. Much better than the slash/corro riot we have today thats totaly boring.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by ShiruBiru

[KnightCole]

45 minutes ago, ShiruBiru said:

DE is killing its own game 😂, its funny because i jumped from another game that the own devs killed it (planetside2).

 

we have tons of options to bypass armor, a cheap modded dread can kill any armored mob with 2-3 hits starting from lvl200.

 

Endgame its totaly boring for vets. Instead of nerfing mobs u shud buff they, give corpus they own armor type for every mob, like proto armor that get reduced by magnetic, like ferrite with corrosive. And fossilized for every infested that get reduced by blast procs, like corro for ferrite. Let corrosive only reduce ferrite, and buff rad dmg even more to alloy.

 

Each faction with its own armor, that get reduced by it own counter proc. Much better than the slash/corro riot we have today thats totaly boring.

 

 

 

That and quit power creeping everything to where only the super tip top tier meta is the way to play...

[SocialFox]

On 2020-01-19 at 6:55 PM, Corvid said:

The point was to refute this:

Which it did.

Saying this:

is moving the goalposts.

You do realize you lost the argument and refuted nothing the moment you chose to ignore the fact that "Proxima" nodes are not "Normal" missions, precicely after he mentioned " You won't meet those beefy eat every bullet boys normaly " Which implies, that if you plan on doing missions where you're going to find them, you come prepared for the situation, not doing so, is completely on you.

[DoomFruit]

Honestly, this was done wrong. The solution is much simpler - eliminate all armour scaling, full stop. If an enemy has X armour at level 5, they should also have X armour at level 50 and level 500. Keep HP, shield and damage scaling, but don't scale damage resistances.

Basically, a fight between L5 corpus and grineer should turn out exactly the same as if it were done between L50 corpus and grineer, or L500 combatants. This isn't even about player vs. enemy balance, it's about enemy vs. enemy balance.

The way things are now, the grineer should have conquered the entire solar system simply by deploying a few L150 troops. You can already see this in kuva floods in corpus maps, where one single ordinary kuva soldier will kill 5-10x their number in corpus. More so if it's a cat lady with those nuclear molotov cocktails.

[Marvelous_A]

I think it can be a great change and a good chance to balance shield and armor, it's just that enemy's EHP has to be adjusted (increase for Corpus and decrease for Grineer) correspondingly. 

Perhaps we will see more use of gas and magnetic soon.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Marvelous_A

[PR1D3]

On 2020-01-19 at 5:29 AM, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

So whats the difference with shield? What armor means to players then? If we have both armor and shield as value, then which 1 will get hit first if damaged? If armor takes the hit and depleted, will it regenerate? If not that means a HUGE nerf to armored enemies, but if its regenerate, then its no different with shield. Have you take into account the damage type that can bypass armor like slash? If increased level only increased armor value and not hp, then most high level enemies will die in an instant, and we already powerful enough without this "NERF" 

Was about to post the "difference" but Avienas said it.

On 2020-01-19 at 3:06 PM, Avienas said:

An easy way of the whole Shields are Corpus Armor as Armor is Grineer Shields is easy to setup in a simple manner:

1. Grineer `Shield` Armor would not be able to regenerate but would be much more bulkie, this would also do a rather good job of making corrosive such a less priority element and allow other elements to be more beloved.
2. Corpus `Armor` Shields could regenerate if they are not given any attention but would be alot less bulkie, ultimately it turns into a simple idea of wearing huge armor to protect you from initial gun-fire Vs. a more portable light-weight system to last long enough to get some shots in but not as long as armor so `enemies` would be forced to run to cover and such if they get low on shields or lose them while they try to pot shot you as they run away to regenerate the shields.

 

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

On 2020-01-25 at 12:02 AM, PR1D3 said:

Was about to post the "difference" but Avienas said it.

Quote :

On 2020-01-25 at 12:02 AM, PR1D3 said:

An easy way of the whole Shields are Corpus Armor as Armor is Grineer Shields is easy to setup in a simple manner:

1. Grineer `Shield` Armor would not be able to regenerate but would be much more bulkie, this would also do a rather good job of making corrosive such a less priority element and allow other elements to be more beloved.
2. Corpus `Armor` Shields could regenerate if they are not given any attention but would be alot less bulkie, ultimately it turns into a simple idea of wearing huge armor to protect you from initial gun-fire Vs. a more portable light-weight system to last long enough to get some shots in but not as long as armor so `enemies` would be forced to run to cover and such if they get low on shields or lose them while they try to pot shot you as they run away to regenerate the shields.

 

 

This will be a hot mess if implemented ingame. There is a reason why armor is integrated to health as damage mitigation as opposed to be a value, like shield. This means no matter how "bulkie" the armor would be, we can still bypass it with certain build. This is why corpus is super easy compared to grineer at high level, bcos their shield can be bypassed by gas.