let the health & shield of excavators scale up with the enemy level

[fr4gb4ll]

seriously, that is one thing that was annoying with this kind of mission as long as excavation exists. while 500 shield and 2.5k health is ok for most of the starmap missions, the damn things get too flimsy when we have kuva-lich excav-missions or similar high-level runs.

if not scaling them up during the mission, at least adjust it to the starting level of the enemies - hell, you did so for the open area excavations right from the start, so why not do so for the normal excavations too?

and no, using frost or limbo shouldn't be obligatory for excavations (or the other frame who have abilities that can 'protect' the flimsy crapper). it should be protectable with just enough weapon-firepower too. keep in mind, that even the consoles in mobile defense scale up, as are the defense objectives. it doesn't need to be that much increased, since we get rewards out of the successfull defense, but at least they shouldn't be a one-shot right from the start either (ok, 2-shots, since the first hit will only remove the 500 shield...).

[Rawbeard]

1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

and no, using frost or limbo shouldn't be obligatory for excavations

why?

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

I still wish we could charge the excavators with our own shields the way hijack works, would make these missions go faster. We have to protect them anyway, might as well use a system that is more predictable and efficient. 

[Darkstalix]

In the lich missions its a joke.they havent scaled their health and shields, it was overlooked

[KCToxic]

Lich excavations are a mess. An excavator with 2500 health in a mission with potentially level 110 enemies won't survive for very long without a bubble around it. 

Also they scale in Orb Vallis bounties, don't they? Don't see why they only scale in one place on the star chart. 

[fr4gb4ll]

5 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

why?

because otherwise it should be named as a 'condition' for the mission like sortie missions... and yes, i know perfectly well that frost is the best for the job - i even use him most of the time - but it would be nice having the option to not use him (and i also don't think any argument about an organized mission counts as the solution to it). point is, the excav survivability was increased for excavation in those orb valis bounties which are even more easy to do thanthe lowest kuva lich excavation and furthermore are the survivability of defens objects in other mission typs adjusted for the level of enemies. that's all the reason there is, not because it's doable like it is already - this would be a stupid point of view on the matter.

[SpringRocker]

6 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

because otherwise it should be named as a 'condition' for the mission like sortie missions... and yes, i know perfectly well that frost is the best for the job - i even use him most of the time - but it would be nice having the option to not use him (and i also don't think any argument about an organized mission counts as the solution to it). point is, the excav survivability was increased for excavation in those orb valis bounties which are even more easy to do thanthe lowest kuva lich excavation and furthermore are the survivability of defens objects in other mission typs adjusted for the level of enemies. that's all the reason there is, not because it's doable like it is already - this would be a stupid point of view on the matter.

Isn't that like saying Hijack missions are stupid and need to change because you can't do those with only Inaros and Nidus?

Frost's aptitude lends to area control at an objective, Really want to say that every frame should be as well equally suited for these missions? Careful, we have all kinds of frames with all kinds of roles for a reason.

People use Frost, some people like using Frost. It's bad form to advocate that a system should change into one where he'd (or other) frames would no longer serve a useful purpose.

[ShortCat]

No, they shouldn't.

6 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

point is, the excav survivability was increased for excavation in those orb valis bounties which are even more easy to do thanthe lowest kuva lich excavation and furthermore are the survivability of defens objects in other mission typs adjusted for the level of enemies.

Compared to regular Defense or MD or Valis Extractors, a destroyed Extractor does not fail the mission. This is a very important detail to remember. Excavation as a gamemode relies on another fail condition to push out the players. Suggested change would undermine its design. 

13 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

and no, using frost or limbo shouldn't be obligatory for excavations (or the other frame who have abilities that can 'protect' the flimsy crapper). it should be protectable with just enough weapon-firepower too.

It is possible to do Sortie or Lich Excavation without a defensive Frame, like Frost, Gara or Limbo; it is even easier in lower misisons. So, what you are asking for is already possible to an extent depending on player skills. Furthermore, you are asking to remove benefits of specialized Frames for the gamemodes they were designed. This change would further tilt the scales in favor of more damage oriented Frame archetypes, which is already a big enough issue.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

No, they shouldn't.

Yes, they should, especially for people that partake in longer solo mission runs. I remember farming for Cryotic like mad once a booster came my way, running Hieracon for obvious reasons. Once you get past a certain point, you'll find yourself facing lvl 100+ enemies that tear apart the excavator in a blink of an eye. Vazarin's Protective Dash is the only other practical tool to use, especially once energy leeches enter the field & Frost's energy pool plummets. Once again, they should. Nothing of value will be lost for a simple QoL change like this.

[taiiat]

i'd much, much rather that the game makes a Gameplay improvement rather than just throwing numbers at the wall like the game almost always does.
see also.

On 2020-01-22 at 6:22 PM, taiiat said:

i'm always open to them taking a creative solution to it, rather than just basic Health scaling. things like Power Cells past the minimum needed to fully power also gives it +100% Shields per Cell, or other more creative things like that.

 

On 2020-01-22 at 7:50 PM, taiiat said:

no single feature need be (or probably should) be considered a solution. just add useful features that can all be used together, so that the game can actually gain depth and interesting things to do in Gameplay.

being able to increase the Excavators' Shield Capacity is neat, now add another useful and interesting feature, and someone else add another, Et Cetera. several of them together would hit the goal and do so in a way that gives you something to do rather than going AFK and waiting for the Timer :)

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Isn't that like saying Hijack missions are stupid and need to change because you can't do those with only Inaros and Nidus?

(Inaros, Grendel, and Nidus are the EZ cruise control AFK choices for Hijack since it just drains their Health instead)

Edited February 25, 2020 by taiiat

[ShortCat]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Yes, they should, especially for people that partake in longer solo mission runs. I remember farming for Cryotic like mad once a booster came my way, running Hieracon for obvious reasons. Once you get past a certain point, you'll find yourself facing lvl 100+ enemies that tear apart the excavator in a blink of an eye. Vazarin's Protective Dash is the only other practical tool to use, especially once energy leeches enter the field & Frost's energy pool plummets.

Several questions:

1. Why solo? This is a multiplayer game, why should it cater to solo players?
2. Excavation is an endless game mode, but you are not supposed to sit there for an eternity. You reached lvl 100+, this is commendable, but it seems this is your end of the line.
3. Why don't you extract and start another run?

13 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Once again, they should. Nothing of value will be lost for a simple QoL change like this.

This is not a simple QoL fix. It would cause an aftermath more influential than you seem to understand.

1. Low HP Excavators, whose destruction does not fail a mission, utilizie a different design choice from a regular Defense missions with a different fail state. Scaling health goes against intended design; if you want scaling health, be ready to fail a mission if an excavator is destroyed.
2. Durable VIPs is a certain design path against defensive oriented Frame roles. If the VIP does not require protection, you can as well just go with moar damage.
3. Entry lvl Excavations are doable without a dedicated defender. If you want to dive deeper, use tools inteded by design to make your life easier. You do not complain that Loki can finish a Spy mission easier than Mesa, do you?

[SpringRocker]

27 minutes ago, taiiat said:

(Inaros, Grendel, and Nidus are the EZ cruise control AFK choices for Hijack since it just drains their Health instead)

Huh, I had no idea.

[taiiat]

18 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

You do not complain that Loki can finish a Spy mission easier than Mesa, do you?

i mean, i could 'complain' that both Loki and Mesa complete Spy Missions essentially exactly the same
_{i'm just paying devil's advocate}

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Several questions:

1. Why solo? This is a multiplayer game, why should it cater to solo players?
2. Excavation is an endless game mode, but you are not supposed to sit there for an eternity. You reached lvl 100+, this is commendable, but it seems this is your end of the line.
3. Why don't you extract and start another run?

This is not a simple QoL fix. It would cause an aftermath more influential than you seem to understand.

1. Low HP Excavators, whose destruction does not fail a mission, utilizie a different design choice from a regular Defense missions with a different fail state. Scaling health goes against intended design; if you want scaling health, be ready to fail a mission if an excavator is destroyed.
2. Durable VIPs is a certain design path against defensive oriented Frame roles. If the VIP does not require protection, you can as well just go with moar damage.
3. Entry lvl Excavations are doable without a dedicated defender. If you want to dive deeper, use tools inteded by design to make your life easier. You do not complain that Loki can finish a Spy mission easier than Mesa, do you?

1. I can play the game as I please when playing solo, pausing to handle IRL stuff, haven't you ever heard of the phrase "play at your own pace"? I'm not dragging my clanmates or some randos through a pointless grind that they've probably done countless times over & will want to leave at an earlier point, especially when I needed 20k+ Cryotic at that moment.
2. No, not really commendable at all. The lack of real endgame makes running this at higher levels slightly amusing. Starchart difficulty is a joke.
3. I do, but I'm not going to sit through loading screens after 10 minutes of an easy run.

Is anything with Warframe's sloppy coding ever simple?

1. Intended design in a game like Warframe is as consistent as, say, presidents. Warframe is still in beta (Might die in beta as well at this point), this concept of permanence is a fallacy. Anything could change at any given moment, that's just the nature of development & that's why reworks come & go. What exactly have YOU got to lose in this situation?
2. Funny thing about that, I ran Atlas one time in either a sortie or arbitration & put up walls to keep the defense target from escaping or being attacked. VIP or not, that's a funny situation.
3. Once again, almost anything in Warframe is subject to change given the ambition of the devs & player feedback. There's also a couple reasons why I'm not running the Earth excavation: Hieracon has that sweet relic loot & I still haven't dealt with my Lich because almost everything about the Kuva Lich system depresses me, but that's another issue altogether. I'm not arguing against using certain frames in certain scenarios, I just believe that excavation missions would benefit far more from proper scaling, especially when enemies get progressively more dangerous. Proper scaling is a rarity in Warframe enough as it is, it'd be wonderful to actually see DE address the many issues of scaling.

[Aadi880]

Developers have addressed this, and will have the health and shields scale in a future update. probably the next one.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Aadi880

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

1. I can play the game as I please when playing solo, pausing to handle IRL stuff, haven't you ever heard of the phrase "play at your own pace"? I'm not dragging my clanmates or some randos through a pointless grind that they've probably done countless times over & will want to leave at an earlier point, especially when I needed 20k+ Cryotic at that moment.
2. No, not really commendable at all. The lack of real endgame makes running this at higher levels slightly amusing. Starchart difficulty is a joke.
3. I do, but I'm not going to sit through loading screens after 10 minutes of an easy run.

1. Those perks are nice, yet it remains primarely a multiplayer game.
2. If it is easy, why do you request a buff? Seems kinda conflicting.
3. Nobody said you have to extract after 10minutes, I mean you can clear some rotations. Restart afterwards, a few seconds of loading time inbetween longer sessions is a good break.

1 hour ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

1. Intended design in a game like Warframe is as consistent as, say, presidents. Warframe is still in beta (Might die in beta as well at this point), this concept of permanence is a fallacy. Anything could change at any given moment, that's just the nature of development & that's why reworks come & go. What exactly have YOU got to lose in this situation?
2. Funny thing about that, I ran Atlas one time in either a sortie or arbitration & put up walls to keep the defense target from escaping or being attacked. VIP or not, that's a funny situation.
3. Once again, almost anything in Warframe is subject to change given the ambition of the devs & player feedback. There's also a couple reasons why I'm not running the Earth excavation: Hieracon has that sweet relic loot & I still haven't dealt with my Lich because almost everything about the Kuva Lich system depresses me, but that's another issue altogether. I'm not arguing against using certain frames in certain scenarios, I just believe that excavation missions would benefit far more from proper scaling, especially when enemies get progressively more dangerous. Proper scaling is a rarity in Warframe enough as it is, it'd be wonderful to actually see DE address the many issues of scaling.

1. What is your point here? Beta has nothing to do with anything. When I mention design, I refer to the game mode we are talking about and how it is different from other game modes, thus when you try to apply rules from regular Defense to Excavation, it falls apart at tis core, due to a different intent. 
2. The point actually was that if you make so that a defensive taget does not require any protection, there is no point in designing game modes focused around protecting something.
3. No idea where this is going, since it is to vague to extract something tangible.

Seems like the endgoal is to create a mission, where loadout does not matter for 1-2 rotations and people can sleepwalk through it. Then, the same crowd will create new topics about borring missions & missing difficulty & useless Frames. Surprise, you flamed to design it out of the game (like it already happened in several cases). 

[fr4gb4ll]

8 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Isn't that like saying Hijack missions are stupid and need to change because you can't do those with only Inaros and Nidus?

i don't see any resemblence to hijack missions - neither are they stupid (only rather boring) nor do they need any specific frames to done well (or at all). inaros is always a good choice when you go for survivability of your frame, but not because it will keep the objective alive (which, afaik, can't be healed be anything). nidus isn't a wise choice for it either since he only start to shine in longer missions, which a hijack isn't at all... if you wan't no name some frames that are good for this mission, it would any nuker-frame, which is rather obvious and could be said for about any mission too.

so no, it isn't saying anyting like this at all ^^)

8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Compared to regular Defense or MD or Valis Extractors, a destroyed Extractor does not fail the mission. This is a very important detail to remember. Excavation as a gamemode relies on another fail condition to push out the players. Suggested change would undermine its design.

ok, point taken. it is still rediculous to start an excav-mission with enemies around level 100 and having those excavator with the same hitpoints and shield thed would have in a mission with level 3 enemies... at least DE got rid of the necessity of having at least one excavator completed... else, those missions would be a pita if you wouldn't go in as a frost (or playing via an organized match - which is also a pain in the arse in itself...).

8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

It is possible to do Sortie or Lich Excavation without a defensive Frame, like Frost, Gara or Limbo; it is even easier in lower misisons. So, what you are asking for is already possible to an extent depending on player skills.

ofc it is - but that's not my point here. the only 'real' need for a kuva lich excav mission is to be able to survive. sure, that can narrow the choice of frames too, depending on ones skill, but beside this, you can finish the mission easy enough (though it will take a lot more time to do so). but seeing the damn excavs being destroyed faster than you can spot the enemies and remove them is frustrating enough to avoid the mission typ against high-level enemies... and it sure shows on the map when you start a pug for those - no problem finding a running mission for any other mission types - even for defense which is still is not much loved, kuva lich version or not.

and the 'skill' you are talking about? this is just the ability of a powerfull nuker (likely saryn) that 'might' be able to kill every opposition around the flimsy crap-digger - or maybe even a wide range cc-frame like equinox... not much different than using frost (which still need some degree of 'skill' too).

i agree that making the excavs as sturdy as the... lets say, consoles of mobil defense, is too much since a lost excav isn't a mission failure, but at least make them comparable to the kuva-survival extractors (maybe a bit more since even those don't fare well against level 100 enemies...). it wouldn't remove the need of the specialized frame for those mission either - you said yourself that the missions can be easily done without the need of defensive frame. and guess what would be the frame of choice for this 'longer attempt' on the mission? yes indeed, the "more damage oriented Frame archetypes" as you labled them already... so, people would still tend more a defensive frame for the mission - like they do in a sortie 3 mission of mobile defense too, even though the defense objects are far more sturdy. it only would make the mission at high (starting) level less rediculous, that's all.

7 hours ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Yes, they should, especially for people that partake in longer solo mission runs. I remember farming for Cryotic like mad once a booster came my way, running Hieracon for obvious reasons. Once you get past a certain point, you'll find yourself facing lvl 100+ enemies that tear apart the excavator in a blink of an eye. Vazarin's Protective Dash is the only other practical tool to use, especially once energy leeches enter the field & Frost's energy pool plummets. Once again, they should. Nothing of value will be lost for a simple QoL change like this.

personally i agree to the need of the survivability of the excavs scaling up with the enemies along a long excavation run, but more importantly is the need of them to be sturdier compared to the starting level of the opposition. longer runs are sadly only more rewarding when it comes to fissure excavs, else, you can just do the mission upto c-rotation, leave and restart... i don't like doing this, but DE never deemed it necessary to make the long endless missions more rewarding - only the challenge in itself is left there, and that will dim as soon as you proven to yourself that you can do is easy enough and rather do a more efficient way of getting whatever you want from such a mission.

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'd much, much rather that the game makes a Gameplay improvement rather than just throwing numbers at the wall like the game almost always does.
see also.

that are indeed interesting ideas for it.

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

(Inaros, Grendel, and Nidus are the EZ cruise control AFK choices for Hijack since it just drains their Health instead)

that might be a easy way to afk the mission, but have you ever tried to do this while either alone or the rest of the team not caring about you and the objective and just staying behind (ok, this is unlike to happen, but possible)? those frames might survive the trip as long as it goes, but i doubt the objective will do so against enemies with a higher level...

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

• Why solo? This is a multiplayer game, why should it cater to solo players?
• Excavation is an endless game mode, but you are not supposed to sit there for an eternity. You reached lvl 100+, this is commendable, but it seems this is your end of the line.
• Why don't you extract and start another run?

this is more about starting the mission again high level enemies - and even if you run a full team without any defense ability for the excavs available, it will likely lead to the excavator being destroyed more often than not. the kuva-lick version of excavation is starting about with a enemy level of 60 in the easiest setting - and keep in mind that when you out to join such a mission, you won't know what level you will encounter if you aren't the host of it... so, starting with level 100+ enemies is likely to happen there - and the excavators still would have their 500/2500 stat. rince&repeat won't work here therefore... but yes, in 'normal' circumstances that would be the options - usually, the reach of one or two c-rotations is what people will consider the point of restarting the run (and lucky for us who would stay longer, the others can nowadays leave alone if they want to - i still remember all the whinning form people back when at least two player were needed to end the mission for everyone).

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This is not a simple QoL fix. It would cause an aftermath more influential than you seem to understand.

1. Low HP Excavators, whose destruction does not fail a mission, utilizie a different design choice from a regular Defense missions with a different fail state. Scaling health goes against intended design; if you want scaling health, be ready to fail a mission if an excavator is destroyed.
2. Durable VIPs is a certain design path against defensive oriented Frame roles. If the VIP does not require protection, you can as well just go with moar damage.
3. Entry lvl Excavations are doable without a dedicated defender. If you want to dive deeper, use tools inteded by design to make your life easier. You do not complain that Loki can finish a Spy mission easier than Mesa, do you?

beside point 1, which is a valid argument to not increase the excav-health too much, you compare apples with oranges here: the vip has much more health and scaling up with the starting enemy level and is also revivable (except for arbitrations, or did that changed?) - he/she is also (stupidly though) mobile. comparing this with a spy mission is also pointless - especially since you already named the major difference to excation namely the fact that failing a certain amount of data-vaults being a mission failure and the loss of excavators are only a pain in the arse. beside that, i can do every spy vault with every frame and even without the operator - but loki or ivara makes them far more easy and faster to finish. and that's why people use them for it more than other frames. same goes for excavations, true, and most people would choose to rather do it the fast and easy way than not - therefore defensive frames are the more logical choice for it. it just isn't much fun if you have your choices narrowed down to either run-of-mill loadout or the fun but painstakingly ineffective loadout... well, you could add also the 'hoping for another fool coming with frost' case which i often attempt (funny enough, not often very successfull - might be that many others thinking the same).

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

Developers have addressed this, and will have the health and shields scale in a future update. probably the next one.

they did? then there is hope that something changes afterall... been only years for it right? still, the kuva-lichs made it unavoidable for them to finally notice the problem i guess.

[KCToxic]

I don't think anyone wants the excavator to be scaled so high as to be able to be left alone under fire of level 110 enemies, but scaled appropriately enough that you have a chance to defend it without worrying about an instant excavator destruction because the defense frame slipped up. Defending an excavator that doesn't need defended would be too boring for anyone to want to sit through. 

[SpringRocker]

1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i don't see any resemblence to hijack missions - neither are they stupid (only rather boring) nor do they need any specific frames to done well (or at all). inaros is always a good choice when you go for survivability of your frame, but not because it will keep the objective alive (which, afaik, can't be healed be anything). nidus isn't a wise choice for it either since he only start to shine in longer missions, which a hijack isn't at all... if you wan't no name some frames that are good for this mission, it would any nuker-frame, which is rather obvious and could be said for about any mission too.

so no, it isn't saying anyting like this at all ^^)

The point I was making was frames like Frost play a role, you were basically talking about changes to make that role irrelevant.

[Ham_Grenabe]

5 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

Developers have addressed this, and will have the health and shields scale in a future update. probably the next one.

Thank goodness someone has sense.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

that are indeed interesting ideas for it.

 

that might be a easy way to afk the mission, but have you ever tried to do this while either alone or the rest of the team not caring about you and the objective and just staying behind (ok, this is unlike to happen, but possible)? those frames might survive the trip as long as it goes, but i doubt the objective will do so against enemies with a higher level...

and, as mentioned, there can be many features piled together, each making an impact but not being a complete solution. they could even encourage strategy of having Players going away from the Objectives to seek items while others stick with the Objectives, Et Cetera.

 

it has quite a lot of Health, the extra buffer amount on top of what the Objective needs to reach the end is fairly large, it can take incoming Damage. 
i don't remember exact figures but memory wants to say that the Objective has 40-50% more Health than it needs to reach the end atleast, possibly 60-70%.
cruise controlling through Sortie 1, easy - and 2-3 probably too.

[kapn655321]

On 2020-02-24 at 4:59 PM, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

I still wish we could charge the excavators with our own shields the way hijack works

That's a pretty excellent idea.. wondering.. (I know someone's told me before) what happens with Inaros/Nidus when in Hijack? Health Drain? Energy?

[Twilight-Knight]

They will not change it, it's an mission require Protecting warframes. Well then but ATLEAST make the enemies blastlike grenade STOP BLAST THROUGH Frost's orb.

They will just have to wait until ending to make changes for such matter that have been wrong for so damn long.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Twilight-Knight

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Twilight-Knight said:

They will not change it, it's an mission require Protecting warframes.

Sorry to break it to you but..

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by DrivaMain

[fr4gb4ll]

22 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

The point I was making was frames like Frost play a role, you were basically talking about changes to make that role irrelevant.

idk why so many people always think about doom first and reason, if at all, last. i don't want to make the excavs being able to withstand fire from a dozent level 100 enemies for a minute and more, i just want them not explode by 2 bullets from measly grunts like they do now - that's all. even an adjustment to the comparable kuva-extractor (in function and tactical alike) would be an improvement... hell, everything would be an improvement to the flimsy things. and even if the excavs were as 'sturdy' as console from mobile defense in a comparable level of enemies, frost and its likes would be stil the frame of choice for most players, just because it's the easier way to do. as it is now, the choice isn't much there - you either go in full defense, full nuker or just hope that another player does. only the likeliness of a bit more variety in a pug of kuva-lich-excavation would be the result in an improvement of the excavs life expectancy...