Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[imbressive]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Teljaxx:

Yeah, I know, I read that. Doesn't change the fact that no matter what they do to status effects right now, crit will always be the more popular choice until they actually get around to making less stuff completely immune to it. And with DE's history, I don't expect them to finish this update any time soon. So, most likely, we are still going to be dealing with status immune enemies for quite a while yet, rendering all these current changes moot.

I spent most of today using status focused weapons and builds to try out these new changes. And the main thing I realized is just how frustrating it is trying to use full status builds for anything. Status weapons can kill most enemies no problem, but as soon as one of the many, many immune enemies shows up, you may as well be trying to kill a tank with a butter knife. So even if you mostly use status weapons, you still better bring something crit focused for when you inevitably run into something immune to procs.

but that's the 1st step towards removing those status immune enemies. if you dismiss it right away, then those enemies will be there to stay and future ones will be immune too, since this was/is the only solution to our dps output or complete bypassing or removal of enemy defenses.

Edited March 6, 2020 by imbressive

[Potitius]

My confusion with the new way status is calculated is  how it interacts with weapons that usually only fire a single shot when Multishot mods are applied.

take for example a weapon with 50% base status chance. if you mod it to above 100 it will obviously proc 1 or 2 status per hit shot if you do not use multishot mods.

 

but what if you do use multishot mods and hit with multiple projectiles? does each of the projectiles keep its modded (100%+) status chance or will it become (modded status chance/multishot count)? meaning it will return to the normal 50% per projectile.

 

it would be nice if DE included the formulas in these posts. because right now I think I found a new king of status weapons.

Spoiler

 

found out that the clouds will ALWAYS roll for toxic procs as it used to be along with the modded status chance as it once was. after DE somehow messed it up ages ago and made the 'fart' cloud be unaffected by mods.

 

now with 150% MS and 116% SC (two dual stats) I shoot 2-3 arrows per shot. each creating a 11 tick long cloud that will:
1. roll for normal status from the modded weapon (1 sure modded proc and 1 roll for 16%)
AND
2. roll for TOXIC status proc (1 sure due to 100%+ and 16% from remainder)

 

p.s. personal record is 164 toxic ticks.

 

 

TL;DR version: please state the formula used for status chance on both shotguns AND weapons with normally 1 projectile. also if possible make separate entries for weapons with secondary effects such as the Mutalist Cernos, the spooled Khom and others.

[Skoomaseller]

is the phantasma's lower status chance intended

 

please say no

[Enxchiol]

Gas was absolutely slaughtered by its changes, and this was in no means neccessary. Gas damage has no damage bonuses against the units that actually matter(Grineer and Corpus), it no longer bypasses shields and armour, and it's damage is no longer boosted by bane mods and toxin elementals. This makes gas damage and its proc literally useless as of now. Status based single shot weapons have been heavily nerfed with this, as Gas was about the only status effect that could be effectice on them(my Daikyu weeps in the corner) and base gas weapons(Zakti, Cyanex) are affected even more severly. 

Please consider reverting the Gas changes. 

[imbressive]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Potitius:

My confusion with the new way status is calculated is  how it interacts with weapons that usually only fire a single shot when Multishot mods are applied.

take for example a weapon with 50% base status chance. if you mod it to above 100 it will obviously proc 1 or 2 status per hit shot if you do not use multishot mods.

 

but what if you do use multishot mods and hit with multiple projectiles? does each of the projectiles keep its modded (100%+) status chance or will it become (modded status chance/multishot count)? meaning it will return to the normal 50% per projectile.

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found out that the clouds will ALWAYS roll for toxic procs as it used to be along with the modded status chance as it once was. after DE somehow messed it up ages ago and made the 'fart' cloud be unaffected by mods.

 

now with 150% MS and 116% SC (two dual stats) I shoot 2-3 arrows per shot. each creating a 11 tick long cloud that will:
1. roll for normal status from the modded weapon (1 sure modded proc and 1 roll for 16%)
AND
2. roll for TOXIC status proc (1 sure due to 100%+ and 16% from remainder)

 

p.s. personal record is 164 toxic ticks.

multi-shot doesn't affect status chance, it only affects the projectile/pellet count. having 100% status + 0% multi-shot = 1 projectile/original pellet count with guaranteed status proc.

100% status + 100% multi-shot = 2 projectiles/ double the original pellet count with guaranteed status effect proc.

120% status + 120% multi-shot = 2 projectiles (with a chance of 20% for 1 additional projectile)/ double the original pellet count + additional pellet count ( if 10 pellet is the original,2 more pellets are added) with guaranteed status proc and 20% chance to proc aditional status effect pet projectile/pellet.

 

not sure i was able to explain it without to confuse you more.  if you need a better explanation you should check the wiki, its actually pretty accurate. (i hope)

Edited March 6, 2020 by imbressive

[Damocles]

Redeemer prime did not get any of the 3x bonus for shotguns, but kept the division by 10 pellets. Its UI displays 100% but really the status per pellet is 10%. The base status chance is literally 3% at the moment and is nearly impossible to get anything with, even with weeping wounds boosting almost 500% of 3%, you're only getting +15% status chance, which completely broke the redeemer prime.

Also because it divides by pellets, Exergis which got the 3x but divided by 3x did not lose anything, but my strun which gained 3x but divided by 10x went from 100% per pellet to 30% per pellet after the update.

Please revise status multiplier to match the pellet count of shotguns, and fix per pellet status chance of redeemer shots

[waterboytkd]

Kuva Kohm is rocking a 90% status chance baseline? That seems...high. Taking the status/pellet and multiplying it by 3 was the quick way to do it, but I suspect that each gun will need some individual adjustments to keep them competitive/viable in regards to status chance.

 

[Potitius]

18 minutes ago, imbressive said:

multi-shot doesn't affect status chance, it only affects the projectile/pellet count. having 100% status + 0% multi-shot = 1 projectile/original pellet count with guaranteed status proc.

100% status + 100% multi-shot = 2 projectiles/ double the original pellet count with guaranteed status effect proc.

120% status + 120% multi-shot = 2 projectiles (with a chance of 20% for 1 additional projectile)/ double the original pellet count + additional pellet count ( if 10 pellet is the original,2 more pellets are added) with guaranteed status proc and 20% chance to proc aditional status effect pet projectile/pellet.

 

not sure i was able to explain it without to confuse you more.  if you need a better explanation you should check the wiki, its actually pretty accurate. (i hope)

from what I read that is the old status chance calculations. now it seemed to be changed somehow.

 

like will for non-shotgun weapons the status chance per pellet be the same as the normal status chance REGARDLESS of multishot mods? this is unclear to me. (because if that is so then shotguns got massively nerved or rifles got massively boosted without DE realising)

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, waterboytkd said:

Kuva Kohm is rocking a 90% status chance baseline? That seems...high. Taking the status/pellet and multiplying it by 3 was the quick way to do it, but I suspect that each gun will need some individual adjustments to keep them competitive/viable in regards to status chance.

 

The Kuva Kohm initially shoots 1 pellet as it spools up so it's understandable why it shows 90%. But that's definitely a UI bug on their part.

Try it fully spooled up. You can see it's not 90% (it's should be 8.8% or so).

[Damocles]

11 minutes ago, waterboytkd said:

Kuva Kohm is rocking a 90% status chance baseline? That seems...high. Taking the status/pellet and multiplying it by 3 was the quick way to do it, but I suspect that each gun will need some individual adjustments to keep them competitive/viable in regards to status chance.

 

Read it again. its not 90% status, it's actually going to be divided by 12 after... I strongly dislike how the community is taking things face value. The veterans are telling you guys this is not what you want... The shotguns dont reach 100% except exergis because it only has 3 pellets. The kohm is no longer able to get 100% status per pellet, more along the lines of 30% after mods. 

[Damocles]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

The Kuva Kohm initially shoots 1 pellet as it spools up so it's understandable why it shows 90%. But that's definitely a UI bug on their part.

Try it fully spooled up. You can see it's not 90% (it's should be 8.8% or so).

It shoots in sets of 3 pellets per shot if i recall correctly. But then the full spool is 12 pellets per 4 ammo per shot, so it gets progressively less status chance

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

It shoots in sets of 3 pellets per shot if i recall correctly. But then the full spool is 12 pellets per 4 ammo per shot, so it gets progressively less status chance

It does start with 1 100% accurate pellet and then cranks up. You can even use the Kohm as a makeshift sniper rifle on that first shot (try shooting a wall in Simulacrum). I actually used the Kohm that way for one of those aiming MR tests!

[waterboytkd]

8 minutes ago, nslay said:

The Kuva Kohm initially shoots 1 pellet as it spools up so it's understandable why it shows 90%. But that's definitely a UI bug on their part.

Try it fully spooled up. You can see it's not 90% (it's should be 8.8% or so).

Ahh. So as it spools up, it reduces the SC per pellet? That...seems like something that should be shown in the stat block.

[Damocles]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

It does start with 1 100% accurate pellet and then cranks up. You can even use the Kohm as a makeshift sniper rifle on that first shot (try shooting a wall in Simulacrum). I actually used the Kohm that way for one of those aiming MR tests!

Either way, the fact that there doesnt exist a finite stat for status per pellet for kohm already hinted that DE's new shotgun status design is flawed. You're burning more ammo at full spool, but getting less status overall... It's counter intuitive that the status chance is divided by pellet count without taking into account the varying pellet counts per shot. The kohm is an excellent example. Shotguns with low pellet count are similar to kohm without full spool, whereas high pellet count shotguns are represented by the spooled up kohm...

The census is, just only use the Exergis because of low pellet count per shot

[Damocles]

1 minute ago, waterboytkd said:

Ahh. So as it spools up, it reduces the SC per pellet? That...seems like something that should be shown in the stat block.

They cant show that stat because DE knows it's broken. They're not going to have 4 entries listing as A% when 1 ammo, B% when 2 ammo C% when 3 ammo and D% when 4 ammo consumed per shot

[nslay]

Just now, waterboytkd said:

Ahh. So as it spools up, it reduces the SC per pellet? That...seems like something that should be shown in the stat block.

It looks to be that way! It's probably a remnant of the per-shot status system. If every shot has a 30% chance then the code would need to properly divvy that up to guarantee a 30% per-shot chance.

1 pellet = 30% per pellet chance
2 pellets = 16% per pellet chance
3 pellets = 11% per pellet chance
...
12 pellets = 2.9% per pellet chance
N pellets = 1-(1-0.3)^(1/N)

Of course in the old system, if you modded the Kuva Kohm to have 100% per-shot chance, then no matter how many pellets there are you get 100% per-pellet chance.

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

The low Status Chance per-pellet on shotguns is really bad for Status Effects that scale with damage (Slash, Heat, Electricity, Toxin, Gas). But shotguns are still good for every other Status Effect that only cares about the number of procs I can put out.

I think we could've kept the same Status Chance values shotguns had before, and even upgrade it to per-pellet, and it would even be balanced, if we rework all Status Effects to somehow scale with damage, maybe like what Path of Exile does. In Path of Exile, the effectiveness of non-damaging Status Effects scale with damage as a proportion of enemy health, so the effectiveness of Status is always appropriate to the damage being dealt and the enemy's toughness.

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Either way, the fact that there doesnt exist a finite stat for status per pellet for kohm already hinted that DE's new shotgun status design is flawed. You're burning more ammo at full spool, but getting less status overall... It's counter intuitive that the status chance is divided by pellet count without taking into account the varying pellet counts per shot. The kohm is an excellent example. Shotguns with low pellet count are similar to kohm without full spool, whereas high pellet count shotguns are represented by the spooled up kohm...

The census is, just only use the Exergis because of low pellet count per shot

It should be fine the way it is (but it's confusing!). Fully spooled up, it should have 8.8% status chance since their code is clearly divvying up the per-shot status chance properly (and then tripling it). I consider it a UI bug and they should show the fully spooled pellet status chance even if it starts at 90%.

[imbressive]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Potitius:

from what I read that is the old status chance calculations. now it seemed to be changed somehow.

 

like will for non-shotgun weapons the status chance per pellet be the same as the normal status chance REGARDLESS of multishot mods? this is unclear to me. (because if that is so then shotguns got massively nerved or rifles got massively boosted without DE realising)

the devs only changed the tool-tip and separated multi-shot from status to not confuse people.

lets say u use an assault rifle, 100% multi-shot will give u 1 additional bullet without consuming it from your magazine ( magic space bullet). so you gain 2 bullets you shoot, for the cost of 1 from your ammo.  yes status chance is still pet projectile/bullet/pellet.

yes you can see it as a nerf, but previously you had to reach 100% status before applying multi-shot, otherwise the status chance was divided between all pellets shot.

example: you reach 99% status without multi-shot, you have 10 pellets. 99 ÷ 10 = 9.9 % status per pellet ( true chance).

with multi-shot you only increased the pellet count even more.

example : you reach 99% status without multi-shot, you have 10 pellets, then u add 100% multi-shot = 20 pellets.  99 ÷ 20 = 4,95% status per pellet (true chance).

as you see this 1% screwed you over. but if you could reach 100% before multi-shot, it was amazing and every pellet applied a status effect proc.

its a buff and a nerf at the same time right now. since not every shotgun can reach 100% easily, or has to use the 90% status chance mod and sacrifice another mod (dmg potentially) or needs a riven.

 

i struggle to judge the status changes atm since i lack forma or rivens to push past the 100% or reach around 200% without killing all my dmg in the process.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, Dracus_Dakkrius said:

I think we could've kept the same Status Chance values shotguns had before, and even upgrade it to per-pellet, and it would even be balanced, if we rework all Status Effects to somehow scale with damage, maybe like what Path of Exile does. In Path of Exile, the effectiveness of non-damaging Status Effects scale with damage as a proportion of enemy health, so the effectiveness of Status is always appropriate to the damage being dealt and the enemy's toughness.

They bested your proposal. They started with the original per-shot status chance values of shotguns and then upgraded it to triple what the per-pellet chance would have been for the original per-shot status chance (so the per-shot status chance skyrockets!). Because status mods operate on the new per-pellet status chance, you can't reach 100% anymore (except for Exergis or 1 pellet shotguns).

[waterboytkd]

14 minutes ago, nslay said:

It should be fine the way it is (but it's confusing!). Fully spooled up, it should have 8.8% status chance since their code is clearly divvying up the per-shot status chance properly (and then tripling it). I consider it a UI bug and they should show the fully spooled pellet status chance even if it starts at 90%.

Wild part is, that single shot DOES have a 90% status chance. Testing in the simulacrum, I have 2 60/60 mods and Savvy in there for a 279% status chance. With Hell's Chamber, in one shot, I can apply 4 viral procs. (could, in theory, be more. I should be able to get up to 9 procs in a single shot if every RNG roll went my way) XD 

Just using the single shot (not letting it spool up), it can be as few as 6 shots to kill a level 115 heavy gunner. That's because it stacks to 10 viral procs super fast, then also can just start stacking bleed procs like crazy. Kinda wild that, currently, the best way to use Kuva Kohm might be as a semi-auto rifle? 😛

Edited March 6, 2020 by waterboytkd

[continue]

6 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I did some testing in the similacrum, Gas AOE damage is less than half of Electrical. Electrical comes with the added bonus of single target crowd control. Something seems off about this. In regards to Gas AOE dealing Gas damage instead of Toxin damage, I am okay with this. It just makes sense and makes it more consistent. Here is a video of my test.

Gas damage is calculated based on your toxin mods, which would be half that of your electrical mods in that mod setup. 

edit: strictly speaking you would expect there to be a .65x vs 1.1x ratio of gas vs electric with that setup (assuming gas and electric are now calculated the same way), so it doesn't account for the full discrepancy you showed in your video. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by continue

[Kboy2608]

The new gas and corrosive elements are just simply so, weak. Many costly builds(rivens included)  that used to easily destroy even heavy armor units in the past struggle to do kill trash mobs now! You guys want the game to be more versatile, i kinda agree with that. But at least in the past, we did use corro, gas, viral and heat more equally, now everything is just so so weak comparing to viral, which make people limit their choice even more! 

[(NSW)Morrigan91]

DE, I think you forgot about Phantasma. It currently only has a 7% status chance per beam, which is the same as it had before the shotgun changes. You forgot to multiply it by x3 like you did for other shotguns. At the moment phantasma is probably the worst weapon in the game with 3% crit and 7% status, it takes upwards of 10 clips to kill an enemy that an unmodded kuva karak can kill in about 1s.

[Zero255]

Blast damage feels underwhelming right now.

As a damage type it's not good against anything (except Rollers and two grineer Machinery units) and week to Ferrite. It's status effect used to be decent for a Sentinel weapon to make it into a CC tool and/or for Condition Overload stat padding, however now it reads as "does literally nothing" to the enemy who is already dead or immune. It also takes away it's primary Cold and Heat elements both which have excellent support procs for Corrosive and Viral builds.

In the current state of Blast I would rather have both it's primary elements, since Cold have bonus vs Shield and higher pen vs Alloy, while Heat is just the Blast with vanilla to most important health types but has a better status effect.