Buffing Base Damage on Weapons and Removing damage mods.

[Captain_Poopypants]

The other day I was talking with some friends and we all seemed to agree that it would be really cool if, instead of forcing mandatory damage buffing mods into a weapon build, it would be really cool if all weapons in the game had a base damage of the current base damage plus the amount of damage currently added by either Serration, Hornet Strike, Prime Point Blank, and Primed Pressure Point. Then remove those mods. I think they are silly. It's like an obligation to have those mods and those mods are taking up a slot that could be used to further develop build diversity. There is only one build I can think of that doesn't use a damage buffing mod. That is for Chroma and Lanka and is only for Eidolons. Not sure on that builds current viability. TL;DR All weapons should have there base damage plus damage added after the damage buffing mod as a new base and then either remove the damage buffing mods or change them to do something else. I want to use that eighth slot for more interesting things. Also on a side note. Multi shot... I am on the fence about it. multi shot is really cool and also a thing that is pretty much mandatory. But I am not sure that just adding in base multi shot to all weapons makes a lot of sense. So I can't really decide how I feel about multi shot mods.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

27 minutes ago, Captain_Poopypants said:

So I can't really decide how I feel about multi shot mods.

One suggestion I've heard thrown around is to make Multishot mods increase ammo consumption. If you make your gun fire twice as many of the same projectiles, it should consume twice as much ammo, right? You'd be able to mitigate that downside using magazine or reload mods where base damage mods used to be. I'm not sure how this could work with weapons that have a magazine size of 1 though. They would either be getting free multishot, or prevented from using multishot unless they increase their magazine size.

What about base damage mods that are stacked on top of the "mandatory" ones, like Heavy Caliber?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Xylena_Lazarow

[Captain_Poopypants]

Yeah Heavy Caliber ruins a lot of weapons so maybe it's fine. Blaze is another big one. For that I would say Fire Damage and something else. The Augur mod for pistols as well. Some of those less important mods that add raw damage could be okay because a lot of them are more situational. The only ones that really bug me are the essential raw damage mods that you would currently be silly for not using.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

The easiest option would just be to introduce alternatives. Stacking base damage is diminishing returns especially when Chroma and arcanes are involved. Melee already got Condition Overload and primaries need more than Amalgam Serration. How about buff the IPS mods so they also give some base damage.

How about new mods.

Loaded Serration

+330% damage

On hit: -165% damage for 2 seconds (stacks twice)

Would be nice for the Opticor and other slow weapons.

 

[MacIntoc]

@Captain_Poopypants

The point is that there are many cases where these mods are not mandatory. Mainly when base damage can be increased by abilities or strength mods.
Including them in weapons will make these cases far too powerful.

 

On 2020-04-27 at 3:52 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

One suggestion I've heard thrown around is to make Multishot mods increase ammo consumption.

Suggestions ?? I have never seen that. But I remember the typhoon that DE caused when they tried to do it. I really don't think they need that for now 😄

On 2020-04-27 at 3:52 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

If you make your gun fire twice as many of the same projectiles, it should consume twice as much ammo, right?

Think of it more as a fragmented munitions than as multiple munitions at a time.

Edited April 29, 2020 by MacIntoc

[Xylena_Lazarow]

On 2020-04-29 at 7:42 AM, MacIntoc said:

Think of it more as a fragmented munitions than as multiple munitions at a time.

If this were true, Multishot would decrease the damage per projectile while increasing the total number of projectiles, which is also fine with me.

[MacIntoc]

Just now, Xylena_Lazarow said:

If this were true, Multishot would decrease the damage per projectile while increasing the total number of projectiles, which is also fine with me.

It's already the case with innate multishot. But like i said, i don't think that DE want to check if it's fine with the community ^^'

[HelmetTooTight]

  I thought of the same thing, which I posted on this different thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1188900-making-certain-things-innatebuilt-in/?tab=comments#comment-11542251

I also think that this idea should be extended to Railjack with Avionics: just buff base HP and damage so we can actually have space to use the other avionics, or actually introduce new railjack types.

12 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Let's take the damage mods (Serration/Hornet Strike/Primed Point Blank) and multishot mods (Split Chamber/Barrel Diffusion/Hell's Chamber). Every rifle/pistol/shotgun build will have these mods regardless of crit/status builds. If these mods were scrapped and the damage was just innately factored into the weapon's base damage, then you would have more mod capacity to actually explore and build wacky things (personally, I like +mag size +fire rate, but I never have leftover space for these meme mods). However, there are niche mods like Condition Overload (which can replace Primed Pressure Point) and Heavy Caliber (which you might choose to add, but then face the -accuracy consequences) that you would choose to add on a case by case basis; that's what mod slots should actually be used for.

Same thing with Railjack; you're losing 43 avionics capacity to just the 3 "required" mods: Zekti Bulkhead/Hull Weave/Hyperstrike. Unless DE introduces new railjacks that have innate stat differences (similar to warframes), these should just be factored into the Railjack's base stats so you can actually fool around and use Tactical Avionics and other random avionics.

 

51 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

If this were true, Multishot would decrease the damage per projectile while increasing the total number of projectiles, which is also fine with me.

This is a great idea imo; it makes multishot more niche (better for status weapons) rather than a secondary must to damage mods.

What DE should do is just start fat trimming mods (buff or remove): there's hundreds of mods but most of them don't see the light of day because there are only 8 mod slots and 2 of them are already being occupied by one damage and one multishot mod. Warframe modding is a good metric; build paths vary from frame to frame without a universal "staple mod" for all frames.

 

[Sharkgoblin]

i dont get this hate for serration and split chamber. i think its fair how it is

[Xylena_Lazarow]

22 minutes ago, Sharkgoblin said:

i dont get this hate for serration and split chamber. i think its fair how it is

Outside a few very specific Riven rolls and janky Chroma mechanics, every single gun is best served using 2/8 mod slots for base damage and multishot. The other 6 mod slots have some flexibility, but those 2 are pretty much set in stone. The ideal situation proposed would be to roll the power of the "mandatory" mods into the base damage of the gun, opening an extra 2 mod slots for things that rarely see use like magazine size or reload speed, without any significant change in overall power level.

That said, the current system isn't bad or anything, and I can see a number of reasons why a change like this would be difficult to implement.

[GKP_light]

I don't think that it need to increase base damage to compensate. we already have too mush damage.

But remove a mod cause a lot of problem, especially for a state that is on some riven ; and for melee, has a primed and a umbra version. (a solution for the riven can be to reduce by half the bonus) 

Give to the mode a new effect would be better.

 

Le 27/04/2020 à 17:26, Captain_Poopypants a dit :

Yeah Heavy Caliber ruins a lot of weapons so maybe it's fine.

it is not fine at all.

if you let the heavy like it is actually and remove/rework Seration, all the weapon that can not use Heavy caliber will be bad compare to the weapon that can use it.

it would need to reduce the damage to ~77% instead of 165%.

 

Same for state overload : his value is chose to make it competitive to pressure point. if you remove Pressure point without change it, it will becam indispensable.

so it would need to reduce the bonus to 75%, or ignore 1 status effect, or come back to the old effect with x1.6 per status, ....

 

And a last problem : the beginners depend of this mod to kill ennemis level 20 with a low mastery weapon without orokin catalyst.

Edited April 30, 2020 by GKP_light

[iBasileus]

Il y a 14 heures, GKP_light a dit :

And a last problem : the beginners depend of this mod to kill ennemis level 20 with a low mastery weapon without orokin catalyst.

If all weapon will buff, they will not need this mod.

Good idea actually. And can save slot for other mods. We have a lot of mods in the trashcan, because we want maximize efficiency of the weapon. 

[GKP_light]

Il y a 5 heures, iBasileus a dit :

If all weapon will buff, they will not need this mod.

may-be buff only the low mastery weapon, and the weapon that are not strong actually.

 

[(XBOX)Midnight Malice]

I actually think I had a rather clever solution to this.  At least for the absolute base damage mods Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point.  

1st time to 30, weapon works as normal.  Forma all works as normal.  

Couple ways this could work... 1st is, as you feed xp in to the weapon after it hits 30 (a la Focus) you unlock its potential, as the base damage of the weapon increases, the effect of your main base damage mod decreases (so if you already have a maxed mod, your damage output during "awakening" will not change.)  Once you have used that weapon enough, you remove the need for a base damage mod and free up that slot.  I am fairly certain this game keeps track of your affinity earned across all weapons, so as not cause too much of a shock, any weapon you currently own that is capped on affinity for awakening is automatic with no materials required.  Which rewards veteran players with an arsenal of fully awakened weapons.  Now I know it is YET ANOTHER SYSTEM, but it is almost entirely passive, and for those weapons you don't want to awaken, normal base damage mod support will not change.  

The other way this could work ... You would "reset a weapon to unranked ONCE to awaken potential" During the awakening process, the weapon levels back to 30 at significantly slower rate than normal. This would require a single forma, or some other fairly common existing material.  

Something along those lines. They both esentially have the same effect.  Making the base damage mod that is 100% used on all weapon builds intrinsic.  (For any random meme builds, you can toggle this damage bonus off) 

This system COULD POSSIBLY be extended to other mods tagged as "mandatory", but would not stack with mods of the same name. Basically, could not equip serration on a fully awakened weapon.  

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by (XB1)Midnight Malice

[BlackCat500]

The issue I take with this whole thing of removing base mods is not about how they take up space, but at the same time, also precisely about them taking up space. Removing them and freeing up the space would be great, yes...but that opens a door. Those slots are empty now, something's gonna go in there and make stuff even more ridiculously overpowered. So I do actually want them to take up space, even though I would like to see them gone. The only way I see this being fair is if you nerfed mods across the board in return, but then you literally arrive at a similar outcome with other base mods. Hell, even if you don't nerf stuff, we will still have a new meta of "must-have" mods forming and I'm willing to bet it's usually either crit chance, crit damage, status chance or elemental damage based. People aren't going to suddenly start equipping an ammo drum. Awakening or not.

Edited May 10, 2020 by BlackCat500

[GKP_light]

Il y a 2 heures, BlackCat500 a dit :

Those slots are empty now, something's gonna go in there and make stuff even more ridiculously overpowered.

it is wrong : the things that will take the place of base damage can not be as strong as base damage : nothing increase the damage of 165%

if you add a third elemental mod of 90%, it increase the damage of 32%. if you use the mod that give 60% multishot, it increase the damage of 31.5%.

(only the weak weapon need to have there base damage increase to compensate)

[Famecans]

I do not support because the enemies will get easier and enemies will make 50% of the game non-existent, without difficulty, without learning to the novice player

this suggestion being suggested by a veteran player seems to be from someone who creates multiple accounts

this suggestion being suggested by a novice player seems to be a lazy anti-gameplay

there will be new hybrid mods to replace these mandatory mods, there are many weapons with incredible base damage but with other lower statistics, there will be new corrupted mods being new options but not permanently removing base damage mods

[Eyeless]

I've been wanting this solution implemented since Damage 2.0 was first implemented.

What a lot of users above me aren't considering is the fact that, should DE opt to take this approach, they'd likely be rebalancing enemy health / armor values to compensate.

The benefits are greater than these unwarranted fears. Taking out Serration, Split Chamber, Flow, Vitality, and Redirection, while nerfing Multishot so it isn't essential anymore, saves everyone forma whilst providing greater incentive to look at lesser used mods. And more importantly, to make those lesser used mods worth a second look.

In my opinion the pros outweigh the cons.

In short:
Take out the base-stat mods and nerf multishot, so we can finally have some reason to look at an unrder-utilized mod collection.

This could encourage a proper revamping of all these lesser used mods, and ultimately make our builds more interesting, provided DE rebalances enemy scaling accordingly.

[taiiat]

i'll just skip to the chase since this is Thread 23597235923 on the exact same thing.

unless you delete all Passive, Flat types of Mods, and turn everything into conditional Mods - deleting one or two Mods from the game is literally useless. it just gets replaced by another Mod that is used universally instead.
you can't go halffway. either Mods are majority free Stats, or are majority Conditional, situational choices. if you're halfway in between, you get the benefits of neither, and the Cons of both.

Warframe doesn't need to try and follow League of Lame-os even harder, stir frying Mods around to be not the same as they are now as change for the sake of change rather than actually achieving a goal..... well, that's what's wrong with the world. don't change stuff just because, change stuff for a purpose.

 

that's just mathematical facts. it's pretty simple.

[GKP_light]

il y a 30 minutes, taiiat a dit :

that's just mathematical facts. it's pretty simple.

if it is math, how do you explain that Blood rush and Sacrificial steel are 2 good mods, and depending of you build, you should play one or the other ?

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, GKP_light said:

if it is math, how do you explain that Blood rush and Sacrificial steel are 2 good mods, and depending of you build, you should play one or the other ?

Melee has an extra Mechanic there, the Hit Counter. Sacrificial Steel and Riven CC is useful if you want to avoid the Hit Counter, elsewise.
though one of the two is a requirement for a Melee Weapon to have high performance.
none of the Guns have choices like that.

but there is a positive example in Melee, generic Base Damage and Condition Overload competing with each other means that Players will Equip one over the other usually (or both very rarely). there's an actual choice that was created, by accident unsurprisingly, but it's there anyways.

Edited May 11, 2020 by taiiat

[DrivaMain]

The reason damage mods exist is to add progression for newbies to upgrade their weapons. If you want to make it innate. You have to work for it. I suggest moving Damage, CC, CD, and Base Status to a focus or intrinsic like system. Veterans already have access because DE can just give them max rank as compensation for the removal. Removing them also opens up a lot of Build Diversity, equipping set mods finally have a use, status duration mods actually viable without sacrificing too much.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

unless you delete all Passive, Flat types of Mods, and turn everything into conditional Mods - deleting one or two Mods from the game is literally useless. it just gets replaced by another Mod that is used universally instead.
you can't go halffway. either Mods are majority free Stats, or are majority Conditional, situational choices. if you're halfway in between, you get the benefits of neither, and the Cons of both.

You can’t stop the meta. Even if you balance everything there will always be certain things that are better than the rest. The only thing you can do is to twist it or temporarily halt it until it rises again. 
 

[taiiat]

56 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

You can’t stop the meta. Even if you balance everything there will always be certain things that are better than the rest. The only thing you can do is to twist it or temporarily halt it until it rises again. 

change for the sake of change is a waste of everyones' time. enough options can be offered so that Weapons will opt for different Mods based on their own traits. that's the practical goal to look for. but it would have to be actual options, not just generic Mods that Multiply Damage. the Mods will have to be more creative than that.

the impractical goal is to treat Video Games like trash MOBA's and want the game to play musical chairs to pretend like it's balancing stuff when it's really just the most successful Marketing Strategy to get Customers to spend more money.

[kwlingo]

On 2020-04-27 at 8:52 AM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

One suggestion I've heard thrown around is to make Multishot mods increase ammo consumption. If you make your gun fire twice as many of the same projectiles, it should consume twice as much ammo, right? You'd be able to mitigate that downside using magazine or reload mods where base damage mods used to be. I'm not sure how this could work with weapons that have a magazine size of 1 though. They would either be getting free multishot, or prevented from using multishot unless they increase their magazine size.

The only weapon in game that works this way is Penta. Multishot make you shot more out but at the cost of using more ammo. Which I do believe is more optimal in realistic settings. This is why Warframe is so OP. We are not willing to give up any power or efficiency and only gain. But good game design has a counter to every balance, increase one end leave you short on the other end.

The way the game is made is because of power creep. If they were to make this an in-game change, they would have to do a complete armor and damage overhaul. But Im completely down with this idea to fix power hungry damage.

[Kaggelos]

Ashisogi Tenno did a great video on this topic a few days ago. A must watch.