Requiem Relics Break The Kuva Lich Gameplay Loop

[H0B0Z]

I like the changes to the Kuva Lich System. The slow grind towards that perfect 60% feels worthwhile compared to the old, "Jokes on you, another 25% roll." I can hunt Kuva Lich's for hours. Blazing through nodes, carving through thralls, trying different requiems hoping to get lucky. Then finally, I figure out the last requiem and...I don't have that one.

Now I have to run Requiem Fissures. I suddenly lose all momentum and motivation. Then I log out or find something else to do.

The current system for farming Requiem Mods is the last unchanged mechanic of the original Kuva Lich implementation. It was hot garbage then and it is hot garbage now. Drop rates of the relics themselves are irrelevant and the "consolation prizes" for not getting the Requiem Mod you need are lacking.  Having to run Fissures completely breaks the Kuva Lich hunting gameplay loop and spending precious void traces on requiem relics feels really, really bad.

Potential Solution A  (Requiem Relics Go, Streamline the Loop)

- We need a quest or something introducing us to the Kuva Lich system. During, or after, completion we acquire one of each Requiem Mod.

- Kuva Thralls now drop Requiem Traces in addition to filling up your Requiem Murmurs. Those Requiem Traces are fused with Requiem Mods to "charge them up" for use.

- Requiem Fissures, Requiem Relics go away.

- Everything else about the Kuva Lich System remains the same. 

- When you use the last "charge" on a Requiem Mod it doesn't "break". You just fuse more Requiem Traces into it.

- If DE wanted to get cute, even failed "guesses" could consume one "charge". They would just have to strike the right balance between, "I'm always out of traces", and, "I have a useless pile of traces".

Potential Solution B (Requiem Relics Stay, Better Consolation Prizes)

• Common Drops 
  • Requiem Mod or,
  • Requiem Mod or,
  • 5 Amber Ayatan Star
• Uncommon Drops
  • 2500 Kuva or,
  • Relic I & II - 2 Riven Slivers
  • Relic III & IV - Sah Ayatan Scuplture
• Rare Drops
  • Relic I  - Orta Ayatan Sculpture 
  • Relic II - 5000 Kuva
  • Relic III - Exilus Weapon Adapter Blueprint
  • Relic IV - Exilus Warframe Adapter Blueprint

[BRZZAFK]

It only consume one mod for one lich. You only need 5~10min to get one mod in Fissures with 4 teammate. That's 5~10min in Fissures for 2~2.5 hr lich hunt(120:10). If you asking me what break the gameplay loop is  farming  Kuva Larvling for the weapon you want.

Edited May 16, 2020 by BRZZAFK

[Leyers_of_facade]

8 hours ago, H0B0Z said:

- If DE wanted to get cute, even failed "guesses" could consume one "charge".

Even though I am more or less done with liches now (got all leveled to 40), I would definitely have to say no to this.

As it is right now, hyper-ranking the lich via fail guesses still significantly speeds up your farm (assuming that your loadout can clear level 120s at a similar speed as 60s), even with the rest of your idea implemented, it is likely that grind times will be at least 1.5x if not 2x more than what it is now for a part of the game that is already being complained to be too grindy

[sunderthefirmament]

I'd really like riven transmuters to be offered as a requiem relic reward, at least in one of them.  The exilus is such a bummer, and it's made even less desirable by being the gold reward in each relic and being offered at syndicates. 

[Tinklzs]

33 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'd really like riven transmuters to be offered as a requiem relic reward, at least in one of them.  The exilus is such a bummer, and it's made even less desirable by being the gold reward in each relic and being offered at syndicates. 

And considering how DE made Eidolons pretty pointless to run (SS), it would be a nice change. 

[TheGrimCorsair]

6 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

And considering how DE made Eidolons pretty pointless to run (SS), it would be a nice change. 

I mean, they were pointless from the get-go.

Arcanes haven't and still aren't needed for anything, and the game's only gotten easier. 🤷‍♂️

[blazinvire]

Requiem mods break...?

Yanno, I was just debating jumping into the Kuva Lich hamster wheel and seeing what the fuss was about, but I burned out on grinding requiem relics, and now I hear I'm going to be running the relic RNG hamster wheel exponentially more?  On top of all the shenanigans I've heard about Liches with the auto-kills, the RNG and the guessing game?

So...
RNG to get the right Relic
RNG to get the right Mod
RNG to get the right Lich?
RNG to kill the Lich
For each weapon.  Potentially multiple times to Fuse and stuff.

...

I'm going to give this whole Lich thing a miss.  I don't care how shiny the carrot is.

[z3us32610]

I like requiem fissures, if only that they are an easy way to play missions that are level 70ish (aka not level 25) and another way of earning kuva and rivens. I generally play 3 or 4 kuva floods a night and I get a relic each time, so I personally am not lacking when it comes to requiem relics.

I would suggest adding kuva floods into your loop so you are always stocking up on relics. Then, I'll set my lich aside for a while and run a requiem survival or disruption as well as many other requiem missions to stock up on each mod. Then I'll return to the kuva lich with several of each mod.

Once I get to a point where I'm using the last mod I have (i just recently got down to one Ris mod), I'll run some requiem fissures to get one or two more.

Of course, that doesn't mean your opinion is without merit. I just have found the requiem fissures to be fun and I like that they have made kuva lich loop longer. I'm hoping, but not holding my breath, that before I get all the weapons to 60% either some more kuva weapons will be released or we will get the corpus liches.

Edited May 16, 2020 by z3us32610

[Hobie-wan]

I'd argue the other way. Needing to stop just poking thralls and liches over and over and going to run a requiem fissure or 3 keeps you from burning yourself out on the process. So many players would get focused on just trying to get a single kuva weapon to 60% (to the detriment of anything else in the game) and then complain "It's so boring I've done nothing but kill thralls for a week OMG."

[(PSN)Ragology]

17 hours ago, blazinvire said:

Requiem mods break...?

Yanno, I was just debating jumping into the Kuva Lich hamster wheel and seeing what the fuss was about, but I burned out on grinding requiem relics, and now I hear I'm going to be running the relic RNG hamster wheel exponentially more?  On top of all the shenanigans I've heard about Liches with the auto-kills, the RNG and the guessing game?

So...
RNG to get the right Relic
RNG to get the right Mod
RNG to get the right Lich?
RNG to kill the Lich
For each weapon.  Potentially multiple times to Fuse and stuff.

...

I'm going to give this whole Lich thing a miss.  I don't care how shiny the carrot is.

Yeah when you successfully kill or convert a lich, each requiem mod used for the solution loses one of its charges (they all start with three charges.) You don't lose charges for wrong guesses or anything. You only lose them when the lich is finished. 

I think the reqiem mods can be traded too, so you can skip that farm if you've got people who can hook you up.

I think the lich "auto kill on a wrong guess" has been removed. They can still grab you if you get too close though, and your frame might die if they don't have enough health to survive the attack. I think my quickest lich kill (from larvae to death) was about 17 minutes. I got two lucky guesses to start with and then killed it the next time it spawned.

Getting the larvae with the weapon you want is easily the grindiest part of the lich content. The lich content feeds you murmurs (clues that reveal which requiem mods are needed for the solution) and since the missions themselves are just normal missions with higher level enemies, it feels like a normal day of warframe except I'm making progress towards a shiny new toy at the end of the day.

I only began lich hunting at the start of this month. I spend a lotta time semi afk in my orbiter but it looks like I've got 14 liches killed already. If I could do this playing casually, then someone with your drive could easily double that number. I say you give it a try yourself before you cast judgement.

[taiiat]

sure, the Keys part of Kuva Liches is one of the reasons why they are so tedious to go through. have to play a Mission to get a Key to play a Void Tear to get a Mod to play another Mission to get a Resource to play another Mission to get an actual item.
and having to repeat each step dozens of times before you can move to the step afterwards, for that matter.

why. just why. 

2 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

So many players would get focused on just trying to get a single kuva weapon to 60% (to the detriment of anything else in the game) and then complain "It's so boring I've done nothing but kill thralls for a week OMG."

i get bored of the chores i'm asked to do with Liches before i've even Killed one Lich. 57 flavors of all literally the same Mission but split up many different times to force me to do that same thing dozens of extra times.

Edited May 16, 2020 by taiiat

[Avienas]

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

sure, the Keys part of Kuva Liches is one of the reasons why they are so tedious to go through. have to play a Mission to get a Key to play a Void Tear to get a Mod to play another Mission to get a Resource to play another Mission to get an actual item.
and having to repeat each step dozens of times before you can move to the step afterwards, for that matter.

why. just why. 

And this is why i will hound the damn system till they just straight up redesign the thing, PREFERABLY to remove the Relics, Remove the Mods and just straight up make it your hunting thralls to reveal the location of where the lich is at as the FINAL confrontation. Instead of having him appear randomly to spank you, it would just be him sending out elites that as you take them down, the enemies in said kuva missions would rank up.

Where you would only encounter the freaking fart typically at max rank, rank 3 if your lucky enough to get the coordinates early for the base and then take him down there so we can fully get rid of the loop cycle from the original version where he aint running away after each round, you take him down in the first encounter with him directly, period.

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i get bored of the chores i'm asked to do with Liches before i've even Killed one Lich. 57 flavors of all literally the same Mission but split up many different times to force me to do that same thing dozens of extra times.

Why do you think i am seriously salty they made one of the new nightwave challenges be to take down a lich? D.E. needs to realize that even if they count as elite weekly they need to evolve the system for all mastery ranks in general, which could easily be done by giving 2 options to clear each elite weekly, one being do a lengthy number of X kills or take out a really hard fight that newer players would not have access to. None of this stacking more gimmicks on a system that already has a bunch of RNG-sus gimmicks on top of it.

Ultimately its likely due to d.e. not really evolving the game itself in interesting ways, which i have seen plenty of games that started out simple that easily pushed things further then likely what the game was originally liked and did not have it as a bug ridden mess either. Honestly at this point, i would almost feel like if they plan to continue to expand the game, they should lay groundwork with small expansion designs BETWEEN the priority things like fixing up the framework of the game so said foundation can not only be on solid ground, but also could continue to do so, once they get to the bigger stuff on what they tried to bring in, like kuva liches & railjack, way too early to actually be released.

Which honestly i would say the same for Arbitration & Riven mods, but that would be too long of a ramble to go over every single one of the things D.E. dropped that could of benefit with proper foundation building before release.

[taiiat]

53 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Instead of having him appear randomly to spank you, it would just be him sending out elites that as you take them down, the enemies in said kuva missions would rank up.

i say the starting point should be basically copying Lord of the Rings(instead of only taking distant inspiration), and building up from there, rather than down from there like what we got in the game.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Why do you think i am seriously salty they made one of the new nightwave challenges be to take down a lich?

Nightchore is a different issue - where all it is is totally insignificant things that are therefore just chores because it requires no knowledge or skill on the part of the Player at all.
literally just a participation ribbon with paint over it, instead of something that feels like you accomplished something or meaningful in some way, Et Cetera.

[Hobie-wan]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

i get bored of the chores i'm asked to do with Liches before i've even Killed one Lich. 57 flavors of all literally the same Mission but split up many different times to force me to do that same thing dozens of extra times.

Huh? You can do any type 20+ mission to spawn a lich and you'll be doing different missions for thralls. If you're complaining about having to stab 57 thralls (which sure adds up), you're still killing way more than that in the course of playing the game anyway while doing different mission types.

As I said in my other post, if you're just focusing on stabbing thralls as fast as possible, you've chosen to do that to the detriment of anything else in the game. Target fixation on a goal can sometimes be good to get it done, but it can also be bad and lead to burnout. Changing things up and jumping around a little is something a lot of particularly vocal people on the forums need to learn or you're never going to be happy with anything.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Hobie-wan said:

Huh? You can do any type 20+ mission to spawn a lich and you'll be doing different missions for thralls. If you're complaining about having to stab 57 thralls (which sure adds up), you're still killing way more than that in the course of playing the game anyway while doing different mission types.

it's party because about 9/10 Lich Missions is another. mof...in' Exterminate.
and party because Lich Missions are separate Missions from everything else in the game, just like so many other types of things to grind are.
so to grind all of the things i need to grind, i have to play the same generic Mission, 57 different ways, but it was all the same core Mission. everything is separated and in a vacuum from each other even though it's one game.

so every thing to do in the game makes things more and more tedious because you have to do all of this stuff in a separate Mission from everything else and thusly Multiplying the number of the same generic Missions you have to play in total.

 

it's not a me problem, the game caused this problem. by making the game about killing 0.125 birds with one stone. everything in a vacuum and every thing in particular has much of its own walled off repetition.
repetition to the Exponent of other repetition.

Edited May 17, 2020 by taiiat

[DrivaMain]

I don't think DE will remove requiem relics anytime soon. Those requiem mods is selling pretty well in the community market. There is no way DE is willing to take that income away.