Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Corvid]

9 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

In my opinion Warframe needs challenge as well as balance, however DE cannot just do it. This aspect of the game was neglected for years, while the power wheel spun faster and faster. As a result Warframe community is highly inhomogeneous, there are people who genuinely enjoy clicker like combat experience or gatcha like arsenal. Just take a look at the very first response.

Changing the game would mean losing those players. Happy and paying players. It would require balls of steel as well as a concrete vision in order to execute such drastic measures. Nobody in DE's upper management has those qualities.

Hard mode is all we can get.

Counterpoint: None of the previous balance passes have lead to a notable decline in player counts, even when the most OP gear got nerfed. The bulk of the playerbase just adapts to the new paradigm. To repeat the words of our resident Monkey King:

11 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Honestly though, anyone who walks away from a video game because the game started to require more than 2 brain cells from them? Not really that big a loss imo.

 

And to quote myself regarding the scale of the task:

12 hours ago, Corvid said:

Actually, as mentioned, the number of problem items is relatively small (less than a quarter of the frames currently in the game, and less than a tenth of the weapons), and most of them would be fixed with a few fairly basic changes (Line of Sight limitations being the most obvious starting point).

You're making the task out to be a lot greater than it actually is, especially since DE have already started doing rebalance passes over the various items over the past year and a half (namely, the two sets of Weapon rebalance updates last year, and the two Warframe Revised updates in the past few months). They even had the explicit stated goal of reining in the upper outliers to a more reasonable power level, so it's mostly just a matter of keeping that trend going.

DE have already shown a willingness to nerf the excessively powerful gear players accrue, so it's not like they lack resolve. It's just a slow and steady process that is nonetheless ongoing.

And simply put, putting Hard Mode into the game as is won't solve the problem, it will exacerbate it.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Corvid

[DeMonkey]

29 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Changing the game would mean losing those players

Would it? Or would they adapt like everyone else has done over Warframe's 7 year life?

Would those players who leave be a sizeable blow to DE, or would the returning and potential new players easily make up those numbers?

We can theorise until the end of time, but I still don't think we can state anything as fact.

[ShortCat]

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Counterpoint: None of the previous balance passes have lead to a notable decline in player counts, even when the most OP gear got nerfed. The bulk of the playerbase just adapts to the new paradigm.

None of the recent balance passes incorporated wide nerfs:

• "Healing defendable targets" update only nerfed Vazarin (long overdue), since Scarlet Spear kinda made DE realize high lvl Defense missions can be easely trivialized. Plus that 'massive' Limbo nerf.
• Mainline update nerfed player favourite Corrosive, while at the same time massivly nerfed enemy scaling and overbuffed Viral. YTubers cushioned the impact by quickly spreading a cookie-cutter Viral/Heat build, that changes only 1 mod.
• Catchmoon "nerf" hardly changed anything in its performance, but made room for new toys, like Bramma or Nukor.
• Melee changes catapulted the whole weapon class several galaxies above all other gear.

Last, truly significant change in my memory would be when LoS became a thing after that one syndicate fiasco.

24 minutes ago, Corvid said:

To repeat the words of our resident Monkey King:

11 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Honestly though, anyone who walks away from a video game because the game started to require more than 2 brain cells from them? Not really that big a loss imo.

The point I was trying to make is, financial success seems to play a bigger role, than creating a good product.

29 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Actually, as mentioned, the number of problem items is relatively small (less than a quarter of the frames currently in the game, and less than a tenth of the weapons), and most of them would be fixed with a few fairly basic changes (Line of Sight limitations being the most obvious starting point).

My list is a little bit longer. I would say, almost every 90% DR skill is a band-aid for scaling problems.

31 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And simply put, putting Hard Mode into the game as is won't solve the problem, it will exacerbate it.

I share the same opinion.

[ShortCat]

35 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Would it? Or would they adapt like everyone else has done over Warframe's 7 year life?

Would those players who leave be a sizeable blow to DE, or would the returning and potential new players easily make up those numbers?

We can theorise until the end of time, but I still don't think we can state anything as fact.

Fair point.

I base my position on my experience and I can say that community got worse. Today people will leave Arbis when they see me entering as Mag. Furthermore, it seems there is not even a vocal majority in favor of such development.
Just recently, Wolcen used to rock steam charts. Seems the game launched with horrible balance (& technical issues), so that players rushed through content in days. After a series of necessary balance passes, player count dwindled. I know this is a different game, but core issues as well as player reactions/mindset seem awfully similar.

The question is not: "Will players addapt?"; but "Is management willing to take a risk to alienate a fraction of the palyer base?".

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Felsagger said:

-snip-

All that text and you still do not fathom the root to the problem which is a handful of frames. That is where they need to take the first step. They already shown that it work with frames like Ember, maintaining a strong frame that just because more interactive. Still she could use more tweaks to tune her down further.

Nor do you actually manage to answer the simple thing I'm really wondering about your null field idea which is "will it just be nullbubbles on a larger scale or something else?".

Pablo is also not weaseling out of the problem, since the frames are the nature of it, which several of us has highlighted long before Pablo even mentions it. The issues are so in-your-face that it is really hard to not see the obvious flashing red warning lights. You keep saying better A.I, better A.I over and over, it will not help, and it makes me seriously question how little of the game you've actually played. What would an A.I accomplish by using a formation when an ability wipes them out all the same no matter if they run in collumn formation, box or cross? What help would cover give them? It doesnt matter if it is a nuke that take them out from 50m away, a drooling Nidus landing ontop of them with his melee or a Loki noobing it up from stealth with a Bramma. Dead squad just the same no matter how smart it is.

This is also not Doom Eternal, this is a horde shooter with massively overpowered AoE.

And we can discard the idea of a smarter A.I since no matter the A.I the enemies wont be durable enough to ever make use of it given the power we possess as the player. Tone down our power, bring in useful enemy units/mechanics, then if all that pushes things in the right direction they can spend time and resources on the A.I. Starting in the other end will just be wasted resources and time because they have no clue how smart it needs to be since the systems are whack out of balance.

Edited May 28, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The issue is that many people like the game for what it is now. An overblown extreme power fantasy.

At the end of the day, players can blow through content pretty easily in a lot of games these days. Warframe just does it slightly faster. 

The smart AI and clever tactics are literally not needed in this game. The thing that always baffles me is why DE kept introducing more and more stuff that made you more powerful if they knew it was going to make future content a cake-walk. 

Yeah, but that doesnt mean it should stay just that way. DE are well aware that a majority of people want more challenge. They can tone it down and keep the end result the same in current content, while bringing in new and more challenging content. Those that want the 1 button gameplay approach can play the old content where they are still overpowered beyond reason while others can play the more challenging content.

Reason DE intriduced more stuff to make us more powerful was because it just spun out of hand due to player demands. DE have recognized and adressed this several times over, saying it was a big mistake to let it spiral on like that. Which is why we've seen bigger overhauls during 2019 and start of 2020. Right now they need to solve the issues with the 5 AoE frames and take a look at Inaros and possibly a few other high eHP "tanks" to bring more even balance to the roster.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, but that doesnt mean it should stay just that way. DE are well aware that a majority of people want more challenge. They can tone it down and keep the end result the same in current content, while bringing in new and more challenging content. Those that want the 1 button gameplay approach can play the old content where they are still overpowered beyond reason while others can play the more challenging content.

Reason DE intriduced more stuff to make us more powerful was because it just spun out of hand due to player demands. DE have recognized and adressed this several times over, saying it was a big mistake to let it spiral on like that. Which is why we've seen bigger overhauls during 2019 and start of 2020. Right now they need to solve the issues with the 5 AoE frames and take a look at Inaros and possibly a few other high eHP "tanks" to bring more even balance to the roster.

Are you trying to start another warframe riot? XD

 

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All that text and you still do not fathom the root to the problem which is a handful of frames. That is where they need to take the first step. They already shown that it work with frames like Ember, maintaining a strong frame that just because more interactive. Still she could use more tweaks to tune her down further.

 

I know exactly what is the root of the problem. I explained it. Get rid of the outliers and the frames that borderline cheating. The measure you are proposing is the correct one but can potentially create a division in the community. You are right for the right reasons. 

However your solution is correct in every sense. I do not go for the downgrade. The eHP tanks the 5 AoE frames and invulnerability frames was a big DE's big mistake. Attending frames alone leaves enemies untended and the enemy engagement untended. Yes your solution solves the problem because it is one of the components that requires attention however the game continues to suck deep duodenum hard on other areas that requires improvement such as better A.I for the enemies, better enemy roosters, better unscripted boss fights and larger levels for exploration. 

The game is linear, over simplified and dull when we talk about games like Horizon zero dawn or Red Dead Redemption open world arenas. Yes War Frame will continue being War Frame but their scope should aim higher with the big boys in the industry. War Frame worlds are shallow, boring, dull, skint, scarce, empty, barren to say the least. Dedication on the enemies, levels and scenarios is the health of this game. 

Sorry but if other games provide me that, I'm gone. Your proposal solves the problem but is a risky move. I personalty agree with it but such decision can send DE finances right to hell. 

 

Quote

Nor do you actually manage to answer the simple thing I'm really wondering about your null field idea which is "will it just be nullbubbles on a larger scale or something else?".

The null field solution is a temporary work not a complete solution of the problem. However I think in terms of DE relationship with the customers who uses those frames. Yes, DE will get new players if that loss happens however those leaving will produce media sound strong enough that probably will hurt DE beyond the point of no return. 

Quote

Pablo is also not weaseling out of the problem

Yes he is. What happens with the rest of the game that sucks 'ruster' hard? 

Quote

 

since the frames are the nature of it, which several of us has highlighted long before Pablo even mentions it. The issues are so in-your-face that it is really hard to not see the obvious flashing red warning lights.

I mentioned before. Some of the frames have to be regulated reducing their area of effect, making them vulnerable and adding cool down timers to their abilities. That solution was written 10 pages ago. 

Quote

You keep saying better A.I, better A.I over and over.

 

Very simple. I will repeat it for the fourth time. The A.I. in War Frame sucks 'ruster' hard. Something must be made about it. 

Quote

it will not help, and it makes me seriously question how little of the game you've actually played.

This happens when you throw in fighting words on a forum and yo do not select your fights carefully. 

 

First you need to get good then we talk. Look at your own profile, your playing hours, your most used frame and weapon. Get all your 22 prime frames and your 42 normal frames with all the weapons and learn how to forma instead of copy and pasting builds off the internet. You have zero experience playing PvP. To be honest makes me question If I'm wasting my time talking to a casual who types a lot here on the forums and knows little about War Frame. Not only that, you talk about games as an all expert when you don't even play them. 

 

So, sit. 

 

Quote

What would an A.I accomplish by using a formation when an ability wipes them out all the same no matter if they run in collumn formation, box or cross? What help would cover give them? It doesnt matter if it is a nuke that take them out from 50m away, a drooling Nidus landing ontop of them with his melee or a Loki noobing it up from stealth with a Bramma. Dead squad just the same no matter how smart it is.

 

A.I provides the most important thing in any game. Replay value and fun during grind hours if we talk about grinding games. 

 

Quote

This is also not Doom Eternal, this is a horde shooter with massively overpowered AoE.

 

Have you played Doom Eternal? No. You don't know the roosters of enemies in it. I was talking about enemies not AoE. 

 

Quote

And we can discard the idea of a smarter A.I since no matter the A.I the enemies wont be durable enough to ever make use of it given the power we possess as the player. Tone down our power, bring in useful enemy units/mechanics, then if all that pushes things in the right direction they can spend time and resources on the A.I. Starting in the other end will just be wasted resources and time because they have no clue how smart it needs to be since the systems are whack out of balance.

Then you hurt the replay value of War Frame. People go over Blood Borne or Sekiro because each challenge despite your skills feels different. A.I. matters. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Felsagger

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

12 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

But no offense, you are a casual player with low experience Looking at your profile you don't have all the frames, weapons and you don't have the time in the game. You are busy typing on a forum instead of playing the game exhaustively. Lets deal with the reality of the situation. 

Brave words for an MR 5 with 50 hours of playtime, 2 frames, and only starter weapons

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Brave words for an MR 5 with 50 hours of playtime, 2 frames, and only starter weapons

 

Yes. A game that I uninstalled in PC. That is my throw away account. 

 

My account is Felsager PS4 MR 28. Look it up. 

 

Don't talk if you don't know. 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Felsagger

[RamonLLLL]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Don't talk if you don't know. 

I don't know man, but I wouldn't go around and talk in a forum like I fought in Afghanistan with 300 confirmed kills or something

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Don't talk if you don't know. 

Excuse me for following the account that makes the claims. Of course I should have know that account was a throwaway. My bad.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Excuse me for following the account that makes the claims. Of course I should have know that account was a throwaway. My bad.

I have two accounts. Felsager and Felsagger. This happens when you do not know your user. 

 

I asked for cross saves for that exact same reason. 

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

I don't know man, but I wouldn't go around and talk in a forum like I fought in Afghanistan with 300 confirmed kills or something

I don't know man, but I would do a search first before shooting aimlessly. 

[RamonLLLL]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You are busy typing on a forum instead of playing the game exhaustively.

The irony is delicious

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

I have two accounts. Felsager and Felsagger. This happens when you do not know your user. 

Ah right, forgot you need to dig through a person's post history, know their mother's maiden name, and have their front door key to respond on the forums. Can't just respond to one post, gotta read through thousands of posts. And to think this would be easily rectified by simply using the account you play on

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

The irony is delicious

 

But the truth is more interesting. 

 

https://ibb.co/rtYPVxf

Now do me a favor. Do a research first. I don't come here empty handed, sir. 

 

 

[844448]

11 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

as far as balancing gameplay. Imo I think more engaging content for the masses could result in more enjoyment. They’ve stated more intrinsic rewards ( not intrinsics from RJ 😠 ) but we’ve yet to really see such. And I don’t think it really can be done at a very well level until we talk about the current level of content in game. It’s too easy. And whether it be opt in challenge or opt in difficulty  that test something other then a players ability to add serration or power str to a build. Or removing the items we worked so hard to get.(mind you the objective of this game is to collect these items to get as strong as possible)  would be great for sustainability. 

And how do you balance it so it's not too easy for chroma with 300 strength with any so called meta weapon and not impossible for the rest without nerfing because it's "disrespectful to players investment and effort"? People keep saying this, yet they don't give a single shred of idea on how to do it so how do you make it engaging with 300% plus strength chroma to 40% strength warframe to balance?

Or if one day DE decided to nerf daikyu that you love to use because it makes another bows too weak, are you sure you will accept that after all your efforts to make it really strong?

And how does it make something sustainable when people don't even want to do something if there's no reward even when the fight is pretty intense? Profit-Taker, no one wants to play if not because being "forced" in nightwave because no reward, even when the fight itself is challenging enough to keep you on your toes so tell me, how does balance make things sustainable when the game next door with all the balance people still complain there's nothing to do?

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Well let’s look at warframes track history and it’s very let’s say odd playerbase. 

Players don’t like bullet sponges cause that’s most if all they’ve added to try to simulate difficulty because for the longest they neglected balance. 

Look at wolf 

old liches 

bosses (invincibility phase dmg invisiphase dmg repeat )

and more.  We bypass damage numbers that are insanse so they felt like enemy’s with high dr and health or armor pools would be a good counter. 

It is in theory but what else is there? Due to the amount of damage we due it’s hard to create much else and players would like something other than a bullet sponge to create a pseudo challege. Especially when we ourself are sponges as well.

Funny that all other games do this and nobody bats an eye, Warframe does this and people lose their minds so tell me, how do you make the challenge? Without nerf of course

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

people complain about rng on almost every game. (Just today I lost my tri rings on bdo even though I had a 80% enchantment chance on both of them. Don’t get me started about last weeks failed TET roulette I’m still recovering from chronic rage) but with warframe there is little engagement to begin with to many. With that being said if you’re not really engaged you see warframe as just rng grind kill repeat. And in most cases gamers hate rng. Heck everyone almost does

And tell me, how do you make something sustainable without RNG since you're the one with knowledge about it as someone working on that aspect

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

you mentioned extreme cost to which surprisingly I am against. But I do believe the energy economy does need to be looked at again. As we literally have unlimited energy at our finger tips. And while it’s fun for a bit. It just feels like your playing with cheats. While you don’t have to operater zen spam. You have energy pizzas which aren’t bad at all. But you have much much much much much much more ways to gain energy to go without it. So it just feels redundant to not use it.

Not on energy, on things required to get something and I'm sure bdo has some insane grind for materials with layers of RNG with long stretched battles to make you grind

[Felsagger]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Ah right, forgot you need to dig through a person's post history, know their mother's maiden name, and have their front door key to respond on the forums. Can't just respond to one post, gotta read through thousands of posts. And to think this would be easily rectified by simply using the account you play on

 

 

This is your problem. You are talking without knowing the situation. If you are going to test someone please be sure that you know with who you are picking arguments. I have a PS4 account and I log in with a PC account. Reason? I can't cross save. 

https://ibb.co/rtYPVxf

If you want more proof. Ask. I have all the proof in the world. 

 

Now sit and enjoy the show. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Felsagger

[Zimzala]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Ah right, forgot you need to dig through a person's post history, know their mother's maiden name, and have their front door key to respond on the forums. Can't just respond to one post, gotta read through thousands of posts. And to think this would be easily rectified by simply using the account you play on

But you don't understand!

@Felsagger is famous and you should just know how much he plays the game, how good he is at it and everything else to do with game design! He is, afterall, the defacto on what WF must do to survive! How could you not know that!?!

/s

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

But you don't understand!

@Felsagger is famous and you should just know how much he plays the game, how good he is at it and everything else to do with game design! He is, afterall, the defacto on what WF must do to survive! How could you not know that!?!

/s

 

I would consider that sarcasm into account if you where a consistent player of the game. But....

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

However this large downgrade will cause riots. People invested time on these frames, people purchased their accessories and people dedicated about five forma for the power creeping. This will cause more divisions but again is the right solution. This is a risky bet that people need to be aware otherwise you alone are going to spank their asses hard with such decisions. I agree 100% with this idea of yours but be sure that you will be remembered for the rest of your life not in the good way. 

 

^^

And those people need to realize that their time invested still holds the same weight in the content that they mindlessly like to run. Plus I think the biggest change that we'd see would be LoS added for the AoE frames, so direct power from time investments wouldnt really be effected as such. And for frames like Inaros, Atlas and Grendel I'd expect a reduction and normalization in health while giving them shields or more shields in return. I also wouldnt have the slightest problem regarding how I'd be remembered, hate me, love me, be indifferent to me, I couldnt really care less.

49 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

I know exactly what is the root of the problem. I explained it. Get rid of the outliers and the frames that borderline cheating. The measure you are proposing is the correct one but can potentially create a division in the community. You are right for the right reasons. 

However your solution is correct in every sense. I do not go for the downgrade. The eHP tanks the 5 AoE frames and invulnerability frames was a big DE's big mistake. Attending frames alone leaves enemies untended and the enemy engagement untended. Yes your solution solves the problem because it is one of the components that requires attention however the game continues to suck deep duodenum hard on other areas that requires improvement such as better A.I for the enemies, better enemy roosters, better unscripted boss fights and larger levels for exploration. 

The game is linear, over simplified and dull when we talk about games like Horizon zero dawn or Red Dead Redemption open world arenas. Yes War Frame will continue being War Frame but their scope should aim higher with the big boys in the industry. War Frame worlds are shallow, boring, dull, skint, scarce, empty, barren to say the least. Dedication on the enemies, levels and scenarios is the health of this game. 

Sorry but if other games provide me that, I'm gone. Your proposal solves the problem but is a risky move. I personalty agree with it but such decision can send DE finances right to hell. 

The null field solution is a temporary work not a complete solution of the problem. However I think in terms of DE relationship with the customers who uses those frames. Yes, DE will get new players if that loss happens however those leaving will produce media sound strong enough that probably will hurt DE beyond the point of no return. 

Yes he is. What happens with the rest of the game that sucks 'ruster' hard? 

I mentioned before. Some of the frames have to be regulated reducing their area of effect, making them vulnerable and adding cool down timers to their abilities. That solution was written 10 pages ago. 

Very simple. I will repeat it for the fourth time. The A.I. in War Frame sucks 'ruster' hard. Something must be made about it. 

This happens when you throw in fighting words on a forum and yo do not select your fights carefully. 

First you need to get good then we talk. Look at your own profile, your playing hours, your most used frame and weapon. Get all your 22 prime frames and your 42 normal frames with all the weapons and learn how to forma instead of copy and pasting builds off the internet. You have zero experience playing PvP. To be honest makes me question If I'm wasting my time talking to a casual who types a lot here on the forums and knows little about War Frame. Not only that, you talk about games as an all expert when you don't even play them. 

So, sit. 

A.I provides the most important thing in any game. Replay value and fun during grind hours if we talk about grinding games. 

Have you played Doom Eternal? No. You don't know the roosters of enemies in it. I was talking about enemies not AoE. 

Then you hurt the replay value of War Frame. People go over Blood Borne or Sekiro because each challenge despite your skills feels different. A.I. matters. 

First of, maybe you should read each part before you answer to it. More specifically the last part you quoted which pretty much renders your answer pointless. Again you go on about A.I importance yet you ignore the part "Tone down our power, bring in useful enemy units/mechanics, then if all that pushes things in the right direction they can spend time and resources on the A.I. Starting in the other end will just be wasted resources and time because they have no clue how smart it needs to be since the systems are whack out of balance."

I'm not saying the A.I should be untouched, I'm saying it isnt the starting point for a change. If you had just read that very part you wouldnt have had to plaster another large post with already adressed opinions.

And regarding Doom Eternal, you just miss my point again. If Doom had the AoE of WF the A.I wouldnt matter S#&$ in that game either. Doom Eternal may have great A.I and monster variety, but you cant just copy it 1:1 because WF had AoE powers and weapons currently running amok. Even with a toned down arsenal we'll still be over the top to implement an A.I that works in another game that is just so much more limited.

I also have no clue what part of my profile you're refering to. Which prime frame would I be missing. Have they released a secret one I dont know about? Why waste time on normal frames when you already have the prime? Is there a new secret trick where I'm benefiting from pointless grinding? Please Mr. Guru, show me everything. /s

Glad I'm not playing a drinking game based on your A.I obsession. I'd be dead by now.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And those people need to realize that their time invested still holds the same weight in the content that they mindlessly like to run. Plus I think the biggest change that we'd see would be LoS added for the AoE frames, so direct power from time investments wouldnt really be effected as such. And for frames like Inaros, Atlas and Grendel I'd expect a reduction and normalization in health while giving them shields or more shields in return. I also wouldnt have the slightest problem regarding how I'd be remembered, hate me, love me, be indifferent to me, I couldnt really care less.

I can't disagree there. We are on the same page over those frames. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

First of, maybe you should read each part before you answer to it. More specifically the last part you quoted which pretty much renders your answer pointless. Again you go on about A.I importance yet you ignore the part "Tone down our power, bring in useful enemy units/mechanics, then if all that pushes things in the right direction they can spend time and resources on the A.I. Starting in the other end will just be wasted resources and time because they have no clue how smart it needs to be since the systems are whack out of balance."

 

I have many games and I study them among many other things. Sorry but the A.I. is a central topic in game design, computer science, logic, machine learning and many other research fields. Video game design includes A.I. everywhere. Even NPCs are going to be more handful as time passes by. Technology is improving on those fields. 

Your comment throws away A.I. design. I can't think about any respectable game designer that thinks the way you are thinking. It's a risky business to only press hard on the player side. If the outcome is a mixture of solutions then I'm all in. I read what you wrote but is not enough. DE has fundamental issues that goes with the kernel of the game. A.I. is unattended. Your solution is fair but it postpone the architecture of the game. The main architecture is the A.I. It will work of course if you remove the outlier frames however if you do nothing for the A.I. you will return to a game structure that is boring since your game is a grinder. A.I. helps with the grind making it interesting. 

The game infrastructure requires time. If the game environment is weak then the experience on the long run will be weak. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not saying the A.I should be untouched, I'm saying it isnt the starting point for a change. If you had just read that very part you wouldnt have had to plaster another large post with already adressed opinions.

But here is the thing you do not understand. You need to really test the A.I. first and then make the call outs for the frames. It's not the other way around as you suggest. 

 

An engineer must build the bridge first and then make the adjustments. It can discard the whole bridge or modify it. But the test should be made with all the variables in site. If we discard the A.I. then we make decisions over an A.I. that was crippled. It is very simple to understand. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And regarding Doom Eternal, you just miss my point again. If Doom had the AoE of WF the A.I wouldnt matter S#&$ in that game either. Doom Eternal may have great A.I and monster variety, but you cant just copy it 1:1 because WF had AoE powers and weapons currently running amok. Even with a toned down arsenal we'll still be over the top to implement an A.I that works in another game that is just so much more limited.

The problem is that you don't have a point to begin with. War Frames will be tested when a good AI and enemies where implemented then you start making decisions around the outcome when all your variables are set first. 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Glad I'm not playing a drinking game based on your A.I obsession. I'd be dead by now.

Good game designers work with the A.I. Example. Naughty Dog. This game should work with the A.I. If you think that balancing solves the problem then stick around more time. You will see that people will start talking how boring the game is. It's not one solution or many solutions. It is the ORDER of the solutions. 

[OniDax]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

I have many games and I study them among many other things. Sorry but the A.I. is a central topic in game design, computer science, logic, machine learning and many other research fields. Video game design includes A.I. everywhere. Even NPCs are going to be more handful as time passes by. Technology is improving on those fields. 

Your comment throws away A.I. design. I can't think about any respectable game designer that thinks the way you are thinking. It's a risky business to only press hard on the player side. If the outcome is a mixture of solutions then I'm all in. I read what you wrote but is not enough. DE has fundamental issues that goes with the kernel of the game. A.I. is unattended. Your solution is fair but it postpone the architecture of the game. The main architecture is the A.I. It will work of course if you remove the outlier frames however if you do nothing for the A.I. you will return to a game structure that is boring since your game is a grinder. A.I. helps with the grind making it interesting. 

The game infrastructure requires time. If the game environment is weak then the experience on the long run will be weak. 

You need to really test the A.I. first and then make the call outs for the frames. It's not the other way around as you suggest. 

War Frames will be tested when a good AI and enemies where implemented then you start making decisions around the outcome when all your variables are set first. 

Good game designers work with the A.I. Example. Naughty Dog. This game should work with the A.I. If you think that balancing solves the problem then stick around more time. You will see that people will start talking how boring the game is. It's not one solution or many solutions. It is the ORDER of the solutions. 

I agree. It would be better to improve the AI first, by expanding their capabilities and the tools they use and the way they engage the player, and THEN rebalance the Warframes around the improved AI. Then, DE can make tweaks to the now-improved AI to deal with the players. Otherwise the Warframes will still be balanced around the bad AI.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

55 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And how do you balance it so it's not too easy for chroma with 300 strength with any so called meta weapon and not impossible for the rest without nerfing because it's "disrespectful to players investment and effort"? People keep saying this, yet they don't give a single shred of idea on how to do it so how do you make it engaging with 300% plus strength chroma to 40% strength warframe to balance?

Or if one day DE decided to nerf daikyu that you love to use because it makes another bows too weak, are you sure you will accept that after all your efforts to make it really strong?

And how does it make something sustainable when people don't even want to do something if there's no reward even when the fight is pretty intense? Profit-Taker, no one wants to play if not because being "forced" in nightwave because no reward, even when the fight itself is challenging enough to keep you on your toes so tell me, how does balance make things sustainable when the game next door with all the balance people still complain there's nothing to do?

Funny that all other games do this and nobody bats an eye, Warframe does this and people lose their minds so tell me, how do you make the challenge? Without nerf of course

And tell me, how do you make something sustainable without RNG since you're the one with knowledge about it as someone working on that aspect

Not on energy, on things required to get something and I'm sure bdo has some insane grind for materials with layers of RNG with long stretched battles to make you grind

Like I stated there will be obvious outliars within this. But changing how vex armor works at a availing level or how much you gain in regular missions could work. With self damage received its slightly better however. Regardless to cover something you said later down the line. Buffs and nerfs are needed for proper balance.

and overall yes. I’m all open for nerfs to my favorite things just as far as it’s not something to drastic. 

I understand invisibility is very broken. 

I’m not against it being nerfed 

i understand my fav ash build makes him Fanny and immortal 

im not against it being looked at if they felt like it was too strong.

overall I’d just adapt. Sure I’d be a bit cranky but I have other weapons I can use and other items that I’ve invested in but simply can’t use at a high level because of the huge power gap between some weapons.

 

also imo profit taker is a well designed boss behind grind lots of players have not done.  Which would be fortuna. As a player who does have max standing and can do profit take . I don’t find pleasure In orb vallis at all due to the sluggish grind and how boring it was to get there. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I want little to do with that open world now. You also mention fights with no rewards. Which is somewhat true. The average player playing this game would like to be rewarded for an intense boss fight because well you said it yourself. It was intense albeit fun but at the end of the day we’d like something for our efforts. This is something de got the community accustomed to so i don’t see how this is a player issue however. 

Also you bring up other games and their balance which they are and can. Be entirely different from warframe. The fact that warframe has little to no balance Rn is a factor of why players are leaving. Other games in a sense aren’t leaving because “this game is too balanced!” But hey give me an example of what game and if I’m in the know I can provide insight as to why players might be leaving.

 

You say this but as I stated a nerf or rather a lot of them will be in line to create challenge. But that is des own fault again.

as someone who is focusing on a single player game right now with no need for rng storytelling is an option. But In the realms of mmos or live service games. More sustainable content can be found within more endless game modes that don’t have you sitting within one space for hours on end. Actual engaging enemies that don’t die at the snap of a saryn. I’d also like to add that PvP is always an option as that will boost the longevity of a game and I’m not directly talking about concolave. We have lunario. We could have player races etc. Orbiter and rj races or rj battles or something like that. 

We already have great customization  but other sustainable things would be weekly or daily missions that could differ from the normal missions like nightmare or sortie missions but a change of pace completely. Things to shake up the gameplay but keep the core loop there. But hey I’m just a “armchair dev with nothing but  _____ in line for a game I haven’t even completed yet I have no idea what I’m talking about /s) so you shouldn’t take my advice seriously as I mainly focus on story telling level design and I’m working on learning more about ai logic and neural networks. These are just my suggestions. However. By the way you word and structure your arguments you seemingly don’t care about the opposing options. As you glance over these things being that I’ve been saying the same if not similar things to you for months now

with bdo it’s a Korean mmo so of course in a way.  But life skilling (farming fishing etc) is very profitable and you can bypass the grind by a large margin if your savy with central market. Even then until the end of June they have a sort of catch up mechanic for new and returning players through suppressed boss weapon boxes and even then cliff weapons kinda do that as well. Bdo is a grind don’t get me wrong and Is more of a grind then warframe. But it’s pvp centered as welland I’m sure you guys don’t want de to take that route