Limbo need tweak

[Taiepii]

There is 2 main reason I believe Limbo need a few tweak. I'm not looking for a rework as his ability are fundamentally good.

First reason : The hate of Limbo by a large population of player. Too many time I ended up with player complaining about Limbo because of how it fundamentally work ( put enemy into a different dimension and can not hit them ).

Second reason : The real potential of this Warframe is wasted due to some few reason I will explain.

 

Problems :

-Limbo is too often assimilated to a lazy frame. As people will only press 2 and 4 "Create an area where the time is stopped" and that is it.

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Why they don't play 1st and 3rd ability ?

-His first ability ain't designed for a great management. And that is why people don't use it.

-His third ability is actually really good. But somehow people don't understand of it work and/or just never use it.

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-His rift plane vision is honestly not enough visible to quickly understand which dimension you in/ or enemy are in. Especially for those who are not familiar with Limbo.

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-Most of his augment can not get a real benefit as much as there are really interesting in concept:

     -Rift Torrent : One of the best mod in the game. For it's management rewarding game play but you can not use it in any proper condition since you will have to kill whats buff you.And you wont be able to use it on boss fight because boss don't go in the Rift.

    -Cataclysmic Continuum : Interesting in description. Quickly obsolete in game play. Why so ? Cause however you keep the time up, your bubble will keep getting smaller to the point it become useless bubble.
 

Solutions :

-I don't see anyway to change the lazy style of game play of Limbo without a complete rework ( Which I don't want to happen ) but with few tweak, I believe Limbo can get a better reputation and/or a better general use of his.

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-His first ability should get 3 selective mode to choose what we focus on. "Ally / Enemy / All", like so we can have a better management of what should be in the Rift and what shouldn't. That would improve the teamwork game play. And make.

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-Rift plane should have a different visual approach. Instead of a simple aura, maybe enemy can get more "Shadowy" similar to Mirage clone. Or have a unique different color similar to Nekros shadows clone.

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-For the sake of Rift torrent game play. We should be able to banish most important target like Boss as it will make Limbo to a complete new utility ( Stasis wont and shouldn't work on boss )
Imagine controlling Boss minions to get yourself a damage buff and use that damage buff to hit the Boss. For instance with the profit-taker, Condrix, or any assassination.

I had the chance to play with Rift torrent during Scarlet spear, when a bypass to the Rift plane was possible (Contagion) and I can tell that it was really fun to have a certain difficulty of game play but great result. I had to intercept/pack grineer and calculate my timing in other to get myself a buff to then hit the Condrix. The gameplay was complex and difficult but I could achieve a buff of 4000% damage which wasn't OP considering the difficulty to put that off compare to a Mirage/ Chroma/ Rhino that just press 3 and win.

More over we will be able to play as defensive for the team by putting everyone in the Rift, safe of minions attack, and all be able to hit bosses in Rift plane.

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-Cataclysm continuum should make cataclysm to fit it original size in comparison to it's duration.
Taking base stats. Cataclysm last 30sec with a initiate size of 16m. With Cataclysm continuum we should be able to regain the initiate size of 16m if we manage to get 30sec back over the duration.

The mod might become too strong in use. And so we should tweak the number of enemy kill required from 1 to 6.

 

 

I would be really interested to see what other think of it. And what other idea to make limbo less hated frame.

 

[Leqesai]

I have long said that enemies/allies in the rift should be easier to differentiate.

I think it would be very helpful to have enemies/allies in the rift be near invisible (like mirage clones, like you suggest) to anyone not in the rift. Inside the rift these enemies should be more saturated to stand out from the non-saturated color of the world from inside the rift.

 

His 3 is really useful but is kind of a pain when playing in a group. You end up putting so many enemies into the rift that people get very frustrated.

His 1 is totally useless. It used to be a functional method of bringing people into the rift with you, but now it sends them to the opposite plane (forcing you out of the rift to use it effectively, which is something no sane limbo player would do when they are able to use 3/4 to put enemies into the rift safely).

[Traumtulpe]

I think Limbo would be great with 2 simple changes:

1. Banish can toggle to Summon, pulling anything into your current plane of existence. Because usually you want to attack enemies, banishing them is counterproductive.
2. Cataclysm recedes when in touch with a Nullifier, instead of instantly collapsing. Current behavior encourages negative range, which makes half of Limbos abilities useless.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

On 2020-07-02 at 4:36 PM, Traumtulpe said:

I think Limbo would be great with 2 simple changes:

1. Banish can toggle to Summon, pulling anything into your current plane of existence. Because usually you want to attack enemies, banishing them is counterproductive.
2. Cataclysm recedes when in touch with a Nullifier, instead of instantly collapsing. Current behavior encourages negative range, which makes half of Limbos abilities useless.

I could design this frame without looking at it in multiple  ways and fix all his problems...but DE likes his dysfunction and incompatibility. I like limbo but he doesn't follow his own rules and his effects visuals is his biggest drawback...shame they have missed the point of complaints..DEnse?

[DrivaMain]

I say change banish that grants a temporary buff to allies that allows them to leave and enter the rift at will by rolling just like Limbo. This will allow Limbo to not disrupt gameplay and make him more CO-OP friendly. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Just changing Rift interactions could fix most of his issues. 

-Allies that attack rifted targets automatically enter to rift for 10 seconds (timer resets as they continue to attack rift targets). (Majority of targets decides rift state when it comes to aoe, and ally abilities don't change their rift state since abilities already work on both planes).

- Rifted allies that attack non rift enemies exit the rift, in addition to the dodge out of rift option if needed. 

-Allies in the rift still collect loot as usual (maybe excluding Limbo as he has the ability to enter and exit at will with his dodge with unlimited duration).

- Interacting with objects, doors, consoles, etc. automatically pull you out of the rift. 

With this, no player is negatively affected by the rift and can situationally gain benefits of being in or out of the rift. And most importantly, Limbo can use every ability all the time without causing allies to go nuclear on you.

[Kaiune]

On 2020-07-02 at 3:36 PM, Traumtulpe said:

I think Limbo would be great with 2 simple changes:

1. Banish can toggle to Summon, pulling anything into your current plane of existence. Because usually you want to attack enemies, banishing them is counterproductive.
2. Cataclysm recedes when in touch with a Nullifier, instead of instantly collapsing. Current behavior encourages negative range, which makes half of Limbos abilities useless.

100% this. I hate leaving rift or casting 4 to pull something in to kill it especially If I only want to kill one of a group. 

[EinheriarJudith]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Just changing Rift interactions could fix most of his issues. 

-Allies that attack rifted targets automatically enter to rift for 10 seconds (timer resets as they continue to attack rift targets). (Majority of targets decides rift state when it comes to aoe, and ally abilities don't change their rift state since abilities already work on both planes).

- Rifted allies that attack non rift enemies exit the rift, in addition to the dodge out of rift option if needed. 

-Allies in the rift still collect loot as usual (maybe excluding Limbo as he has the ability to enter and exit at will with his dodge with unlimited duration).

- Interacting with objects, doors, consoles, etc. automatically pull you out of the rift. 

With this, no player is negatively affected by the rift and can situationally gain benefits of being in or out of the rift. And most importantly, Limbo can use every ability all the time without causing allies to go nuclear on you.

i love you.

[Els236]

I'll piggyback on this thread, because I too think Limbo needs tweaking, for one main reason:

The main reason I think he needs tweaking is that he is a serious problem for DE to balance around as his Rift passive is plain cheese for a lot of stuff, leading to him getting nerf after nerf after nerf.

Any new event or boss that is introduced to the game can be cheesed by Limbo's rift leading DE to patch it to whereas the enemy can affect Limbo in the rift. Well, not only does that screw over the lore, it also screws over Limbo in gameplay.

 

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

If they would just give his rift the visual distinction it needs( inside and out also affected enemy graphic) and make the rift play by locked rules instead of sometimes I can and sometimes I can't interact it would be easy. DE is creating their own problems at the same time destroying his usability. 

And rift surge is redundant. It should be applied automatically with banish, Opening a slot for a more useful power.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

11 hours ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

f they would just give his rift the visual distinction it needs( inside and out also affected enemy graphic) and make the rift play by locked rules instead of sometimes I can and sometimes I can't interact it would be easy. DE is creating their own problems at the same time destroying his usability. 

This would be helpful for the way he currently operates, and I've requested it in the past. Thinking about it though, I realized it's just another bandaid that doesn't actually fix the issues on its own.

I would still like it in conjunction with my suggested fix to rift mechanics above so that players are aware of which plane they expect to be in when attacking those enemies. Strategically, it's relevant for avoiding damage and effects from various enemies on the opposite plane.

11 hours ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

And rift surge is redundant. It should be applied automatically with banish, Opening a slot for a more useful power.

That's an interesting idea. I do love the augment for the ability, but the base ability is underwhelming. That could be the fact that you can't put it to good use when on a team right now, but I wouldn't turn down the opportunity for a new ability. 

[MasterBurik]

An older concept I had some time back:

1. Have Banish create mini Cataclysms with an abstract design (allowing for dynamic removal when in contact with a nullifier). These "tears" are Limbo drawing aspects of Rift space into normal space, allowing for full cross-space interactions (Shoot in, shoot out, interact, pick up items, etc.). Enemies within the initial AoE are knocked down and receive the transitional damage, much like the current version. If using Rift Haven, Allies within the initial AoE would receive a small burst of healing as well as health regen whenever they are within a "tear".
2. Stasis would function the same. Potential for augment that momentarily freezes player projectiles that enter a "tear", before realigning to hit potential nearby targets inside or outside the tear.
3. Killing surged enemies expand nearby "tears", or create new "tears" (dependent on their proximity to existing "tears"). This enhances CC potential, and helps create more "tears" that Limbo could utilize with the Rift Torrent augment.
4. Cataclysm creates a large tear on Limbo's location, and expands the size of existing tears. Enemies in any tear begin to experience the full effect of the Rift (being slowed, progressive armor stripping, transitioning between being lifted and being knocked down, or something in this strain) for a short period of time, before receiving a blast of damage as the "tears" recede. Continuum augment would convert it to a channeled ability, and the final blast would be replaced with damage over time.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

20 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

Have Banish create mini Cataclysms with an abstract design (allowing for dynamic removal when in contact with a nullifier). These "tears" are Limbo drawing aspects of Rift space into normal space, allowing for full cross-space interactions (Shoot in, shoot out, interact, pick up items, etc.). Enemies within the initial AoE are knocked down and receive the transitional damage, much like the current version. If using Rift Haven, Allies within the initial AoE would receive a small burst of healing as well as health regen whenever they are within a "tear".

I like this idea, as long as it only allows allies full interaction on both sides and not enemies. Either way, it would be far more useful than the wild conal one we have now. I miss single target Banish. 😞 In the past I suggested that Banish at least be aoe around target instead of conal, so we at least have a reasonable control over it instead of just everyone within peripheral view.

 

[Pinegulf]

Agreed. 2+4 trivializes all defense-typed missions. 

Idea: Limit # of enemies/enemy actions held by stasis. == Bubble would pop after holding 10 (or something like that) enemies. 

[quxier]

On 2020-07-10 at 10:48 AM, Pinegulf said:

Idea: Limit # of enemies/enemy actions held by stasis. == Bubble would pop after holding 10 (or something like that) enemies. 

Instead of poping let enemies move. For example <6 enemies => 0% speed. 10-12 enemies => 5% speed. 12-16 enemies => 10% speed.
 

On 2020-07-02 at 9:48 PM, Taiepii said:

put enemy into a different dimension and can not hit them

And interaction with objects. Not sure how it's nowadays in the teamwork (e.g. air support).
Toggle-able all/enemy/all ability is great... however you still get this "I cannot kill" problem. An enemy might be spotted from many meters but if your teammate cannot kill it then it's bad.
In my opinion, there are 2 possible ways to fix it:
- make it easy to go from/to rift => it shouldn't be like current "press to banish a player". It requires too much work for both people. It should be something that the Limbo enables you to do. Like someone mentioned you could move between planes using rolls. It's great... but a player can accidentally change a plane. I think it should be something fast but something you don't do very often. Maybe roll up + roll down? Or roll + jump (or reverse)?
- make enemies kill-able in both planes => however enemies might only damage you if you (a player and an enemy) is in the same plane. It might be "too easy" so maybe a player's damage is reduced to, let's say, 75%? You still want to be in the same plane but it's not required.