[STEEL PATH] Grineer armor scaling way to high...

[Redwyrm]

...while bonuses for health and shield still quite meaningless for corpus and infested.

That actually issue even without additional bonuses from Steel Path. But Steel Path makes it so much worse.

Just as an example of two most basic Grineer and Corpus units: Lancer and Crewman

On level 130

Without Steel Path bonuses Lancer have 12,290 health, with 1631 armor. Which gives him 84% damage reduction, and overall 76,812 effective health.

Without Steel Path bonuses Crewman have 7374 health and 9336 shield. With total effective health of 16 710.

That already brings grineer unit more than 4 and half times more effective health than corpus. And don't forget that shield actually can be easily ignored with two types of damage, and you don't even need stacking status chance to benefit from it (you can literally go with 0% status chance, and 100% benefit from toxic and gas shield ignore feature)

With Steel path bonuses Lancer have 30 725 health, and 4,077 armor (93% damage reduction). Which bring him to 448,328 effective health.

With Steel Path bonuses Crewman have 18,435 health and 23,340 shield. With total 41,775 effective health.

This time grineer unit have more than 10 times as much health than corpus...

 

The easiest way to see in action how ridiculous it is, is just stealthy observer crossfire mission in between grineer and corpus, or grineer and infested, with Steel path active. Grineer always beats their opponent, usually without even any losses.

To address this issue, you should not give any higher armor bonuses for Steel Path at all. But significantly increasing amount of shield corpus can get. Unfortunately even with that grineer will be tankier. But at least difference in between grineer and corpus would be as insane as it is now, where you can easily one-shot corpus units right on the start, but greeners can survive many hits even with maxed combo multipliers

[Lazarow]

git gud. Its all about gear optimizing and getting to use different builds and weapons for different faction. Just taking a Chroma works and corrosive for grineer.

[SneakyErvin]

18 minutes ago, Lazarow said:

git gud. Its all about gear optimizing and getting to use different builds and weapons for different faction. Just taking a Chroma works and corrosive for grineer.

That doesnt really change how poorly balanced the factions are compared to eachother.

If DE did it properly all 3 factions would come out at roughly the same EHP on their units, currently it is extremely imbalanced. There shouldnt be a EHP x10 EHP difference.

edit: If anything the super meaty faction should be infested since they cant do squat to us really.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Lazarow said:

git gud. It's all about gear optimizing and getting to use different builds and weapons for different faction

Nobody needs to "git gud" to kill Corpus or Infested though. Any setup that kills Grineer will incidentally annihilate the other factions.

The Steel Path Grineer on Earth felt really good to fight, then I got to Venus and was massively disappointed by how weak the Corpus still are.

[Twilight-Knight]

It is roughly made as no good expecting from the developers. Not all things must go with f*cking strip strip and strips to play.

"Armor HP and Shield have same multiplier number". I knew it would be a sh*t as soon as I saw it, since armor is a totally a different thing and it was the reason that make grineer give higher points.

If you ask me I wouldn't have make an " IMPROVEMENTS" for enemies which they have learned from the tenno. They should have a small multiplier defense stats with same armor numbers but enemies do rolls and more reaction when they see they are being aims.

THIS STEEL PATH is pathetic made since it comes with so many quotes from teshin that does not match for a "right challenge". Only thing I like about this I get to feel the moment I open the junction again, feel like yesterday as it was so long ago.

[-Serhokyan-]

If you want to make grineer feel the energy of getting rekt, just use banshee and use a spesificaly made Grineer Loadout, same goes for the all factions of course.
If you want to hit the Corpus good, just use mag/hildryn.
It's not a matter of DE needing to make everything accessible and easy to everyone, it's a matter of forced evolution.
Git Gut my friend, or don't go down the steel path at all...

[Hellmaker2004]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt really change how poorly balanced the factions are compared to eachother.

If DE did it properly all 3 factions would come out at roughly the same EHP on their units, currently it is extremely imbalanced. There shouldnt be a EHP x10 EHP difference.

edit: If anything the super meaty faction should be infested since they cant do squat to us really.

Well yes and no to this.

Corpus does have some units with armor, so it is not a straight up 10x EHP difference. Same with infested, if anything Infested might actually get some if their armor now when they do not fall over a second after they spawn since they get it from a buff instead of having it innate.

But more importantly, not all factions are the same.

You have to look at the faction as a whole instead of simply looking at EHP.

What does Grineer have besides Health, Armor?

Nothing really that impressive, everyone have Eximus so that is excluded. They do have the ability to somewhat detect stealth'ed foes, so that is something unique. They can disarm us and depending on tileset they can also swap place with us and in doing so stun us briefly. But besides that? Nothing really!

 

Then take a look at Corpus, not only do they generally deal more damage but they got multiple things that forces you to react, Nullifiers, Comba / Scrambus, Bursas. They also have a multitude of Ospreys serving different purpose, some to protect allies with increased maximum shield, and shield regeneration, some with area denial tools, or other who are simply very tanky due to them having armor.
 

 

Then take a look at Infested, arguably the highest damage faction in the game, although they are still somewhat hindered by their range so it is a subject we can probably argue.
But they are a very fast moving faction, they deal toxic damage that bypasses shields and can deploy it as a area denial tool, they have even more area denial tools with the Tar-Mutalist and they have infested that can grant other infested armor, this armor start out at 700 and then scale with level, so it can be quite potent. We simply never gave them a chance to apply this, further more they have Ancients that can provide multiple roles, some redirect status effects and grant a whopping 90% Damage resistance, some causes other infested to drain Warframe energy, and provides a Warframe ability damage resistance aura, and some grant a toxic buff to allies and a complete immunity towards toxic damage for those under the effect.


So yes, the Grineer get a hell of a lot more EHP flat, but does this include all facts and benefit that other Factions get. I would Argue that Grineer is still a very weak faction, due to them still lacking competent foes.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Redwyrm said:

But significantly increasing amount of shield corpus can get.

Shields definitely need to be tougher, but the other issue with Corpus is that they immediately fall over if you run toxin. Ideally, TTK should be similar whether you're using slash against Grineer or toxin against Corpus, with magnetic and corrosive able to fill similar useful roles, but this is sadly not the case. Grineer armor feels pretty good to fight against, though I really wish they had some viral-resistant units. Hopefully, DE will revisit the damage type chart... again...

[Redwyrm]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: If anything the super meaty faction should be infested since they cant do squat to us really.

I agree.
Idealy all factions should get independed bonuses, that buff them specifically.

For example:

All factions - bonus to health

Grineer - bonus to ranged damage (but not armor)

Corpus - large bonus to shield, shield blocks all status effects, toxin and gas does not bypass shield.

Infested - large bonus to speed and melee attack speed, additional large bonus to health.

 

That would make all 3 faction interesting and challenging on Steel Path. Right now grineer are just annoying, but no faction still really challenging.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

We have gone full circle back to Damage 1.0.

Viral/Slash is literally just the old "Armor Piercing" with extra steps and some prayers to RNGesus.

I'm just wondering, how this:

Got nerfed into this:

Warframe changes, but armor never changes.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

So yes, the Grineer get a hell of a lot more EHP flat, but does this include all facts and benefit that other Factions get. I would Argue that Grineer is still a very weak faction, due to them still lacking competent foes.

The problem is that their HP doesnt help them feel interesting. Grineer could easily be toned down in EHP, their gimmick is still hitscan weapons over corpus projectiles for the most part, so corpus have a harder time hitting us, more so with the changes for chance to hit that got implemented on the enemies.

Best solution would be balancing all 3 factions in both offense and defense. Add more needed units to Grineer to make the comparable to Corpus and give Infested some ranged units with bio-guns.

And as @Redwyrmsays, it would be good if they balanced them individually for steel path instead of adding the same. Infested for instance only get +HP for the most part from it, with a few units benefiting from +armor. They could have very well benefited from increased movement and attack speed in steel path along with a larger health buff.

[protecttheplanet]

Am 10.7.2020 um 22:58 schrieb Lazarow:

git gud. Its all about gear optimizing and getting to use different builds and weapons for different faction. Just taking a Chroma works and corrosive for grineer.

Wow u are so cool and strong u really did address ops topic of faction unbalance perfectly by saying that a cool and strong guy like you can destroy the enemy regardless

God git gud posters are so cringe

[Redwyrm]

For simplicity i'v pick most basic units for comparison. But surely many of you noticed how annoying Grineer Heavy Gunner units are. Even though again they suppose to be an equivalent to Corpus Tech units.

So here another comparison of two (i'll just go with Steel Path only this time).

(same on level 130)

Heavy Gunner have 89,662 health and 19,602 armor (Chroma goes QQ). With total effective health of 5,948,177

Corpus Tech have 203,175 health and 35,740 shield. With total EHP of 238,915.

This time Gunner have almost *25 times of health, compare to Tech... And don't forget that they also can spawn as Eximus.

 

P.S. That is to say there is a slight issue with Tech units on Steel Path as well. Specifically on on new corpus ship tile game overspawning those. On survival it not uncommon to see 20+ techs spawn (and usually nothing else). Providing they are suppose to be rare(er) 'elite' units, it looks quite bizarre (and can be quite dangerous even for tanky warframe)

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Redwyrm said:

Heavy Gunner have 89,662 health and 19,602 armor (Chroma goes QQ). With total effective health of 5,948,177

Corpus Tech have 203,175 health and 35,740 shield. With total EHP of 238,915.

This time Gunner have almost *25 times of health, compare to Tech

And then you realize that Hunter Munitions and Toxin make armor and shields irrelevant, and the Corpus Tech actually has more of the only thing that ever mattered: Health.

[Stonehenge]

"Grineer armor scaling way too high..."

 

Nope.

 

 

[TheNeonGod]

My Titania can still can kill them quite easily especially heavy and super-heavy units.

   

[Twilight-Knight]

The people saying the armor scaling currently is ok ? is all the amatuers, kids. The incapable of thinking neutrals and exploiter lazy fools, reason the game keep getting weirder and weider.
The grineer can have this armor scaling as long as they have proper look back to some units, especially as elite shield lancer, kuva shield lancer, these two units dealt damage too lethal plus their impenetrable shield.

But hey I can clean the steel path nodes solo just with 4 warframes and 6 weapons and I'm trying to makes assassins show up with me so what do I know ?

[ShortCat]

On 2020-07-10 at 10:46 PM, Redwyrm said:

On level 130

Without Steel Path bonuses Lancer have 12,290 health, with 1631 armor. Which gives him 84% damage reduction, and overall 76,812 effective health.

Without Steel Path bonuses Crewman have 7374 health and 9336 shield. With total effective health of 16 710.

-----

With Steel path bonuses Lancer have 30 725 health, and 4,077 armor (93% damage reduction). Which bring him to 448,328 effective health.

With Steel Path bonuses Crewman have 18,435 health and 23,340 shield. With total 41,775 effective health.

This is a fairly misleading comparison.
On the one hand you compara a Lancer with 100 base health and a Crewman with 60 base health, which would create a huge discrepancy anyway even if both had the same scaling.
On the other hand you are talking about eHP. Stop talking about eHP, this digit should be meaningless to every person who understans the damage system. Shield/armor ignore options directly bypass a deffensive layer. Previously to (stupid) status changes, 1 Corrosive proc would deal millions of eHP damage; all armor remove options still deal millions of eHP damage in this context.

On 2020-07-10 at 10:46 PM, Redwyrm said:

But significantly increasing amount of shield corpus can get. Unfortunately even with that grineer will be tankier. But at least difference in between grineer and corpus would be as insane as it is now, where you can easily one-shot corpus units right on the start, but greeners can survive many hits even with maxed combo multipliers

Higher shields will harldy make a difference, since Toxin exists. Then, I would also advise to fight some Juno Elite Crewman on reworked ship tile sets if you think Corpus are flimsy. Then there are Techs and Scomba with highest health scaling of all regular units in the game.

 

[MadMattPrime]

Compared too the old Armor scaling system the current armor system is a joke.

Corrosive exist for a reason while no longer infinite its still useful.

[Redwyrm]

Ppl who come here with 'elitist' comments miss the whole point.

Problem is not with grineer armor is too tough. Problem is in crazy disbalance in between faction.

If DE thinks that grineers are best example on how factions should be in end game - then they should make all other factions just as tough.

Until then - problem persist. And not a light one.

  

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Higher shields will harldy make a difference, since Toxin exists. Then, I would also advise to fight some Juno Elite Crewman on reworked ship tile sets if you think Corpus are flimsy. Then there are Techs and Scomba with highest health scaling of all regular units in the game.

 

I'v made a proposal later, that all faction should get independent buffs. And corpus in particular, should get not only tougher shield, but thier shield should block status effects and prevent toxin and gas to bypass them.

Quote

This is a fairly misleading comparison.
On the one hand you compara a Lancer with 100 base health and a Crewman with 60 base health, which would create a huge discrepancy anyway even if both had the same scaling.
On the other hand you are talking about eHP. Stop talking about eHP, this digit should be meaningless to every person who understans the damage system. Shield/armor ignore options directly bypass a deffensive layer. Previously to (stupid) status changes, 1 Corrosive proc would deal millions of eHP damage; all armor remove options still deal millions of eHP damage in this context.

That's not a n excuse for disbalance. When you need additional methods to deal with tougher situation is generally good, and unfortunately something that WF severally lack of). But it's actually good when it balanced all around. If same things i would need to do when i facing Corpus, or Infested - perfect. I would be only glad switching frames and equipment. But so far only high level grineer actually requires that. high level corpus and infested are still a joke.

[Unimira]

I agree with previous comment, Grineer is the only faction that gets noticably tougher in Steel Path. Unless this was intended it should be addressed.