Doesn't the Helminth currently go against it's own purpose?.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Hello community

Helminth another power creep system or hours of fan made fun content?.

Edit : placing this here to make sure it's seen as not everyone will read everything below. This is not a slot issue or upfront cost issue but the overall cost of swapping abilities around hurting the idea of what Helminth stands for.

Correct me if i am wrong here and know that as someone with millions of resources to blow. Something really irks me about the whole system.

It's suppose to be for us to try different builds out and have fun with creating odd frame builds.

But i find myself selecting just the most useful abilities per frame over silly or fun ones. Mainly because the overwhelming cost to change them up and the bile.. o god the bile.

How i expected the system to work was we would sink a large amount of resources in to unlocking the abilities. Then we could change them around at will to become part of our builds.

Was anyone expecting it to play out the same way?.

Ps the new forums are insanely bad on mobile. Cant see notifcations, swipe right is odd and can't see my profile. :(

Edit : Also buffing some of the less chosen abilities could work as well. But definitely the cost to swap abilities around needs to be adjusted 100%.

If an ability costs alot to unlock but allows you to swap it around at will. Then this creates a tonne of fun content to do. What would happen if i place x on this frame in ability 3?.

Instead of this is gonna cost me x amount to unlock then x amount to apply i need to be careful and choose the correct ones per frame type.

Also imagine later on you could add some more abilities that are more fun based for us to muck around with. Remember triple jump lol?. Definitely feels like DE is missing a chance to create insane fun end game content for between expacs. It's not like we need any more combo room clearing meta that Helminth has made shine currently.

We were gods before it, we are gods with it and we will still be gods after the next expac. Do you really want people just following the meta paths more?.

Edit ( a good point) : 

Helminth will always be a sink because it means each new frame is now needed x 2 then you need the resources to eat one of them for their ability. So Helminth will succeed as a resource sink in that matter. But with the resources required for swapping abilities it means most abilities won't see the light of day for silly / fun builds often as it's too much for testing purposes. People will rely on stat sheets and youtuber trial and error for views to see what things do.

That is just sad.

[Vyra]

Its just sad.

I avoid it for now.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Just now, Vyra said:

Its just sad.

I avoid it for now.

It's definitely a curious thing isn't it. But with some adjustments it could be what it was intended to be. I have no issue with throwing my resources at it as i can't burn them fast enough. But kinda sucks that i can't try different builds out for abit without forking over a large amount esp Bile lol.

[AegisSiege]

I mean, you can put different powers on each load out. So nothing is stopping you from doing a serious/meta build, then having load out B be a fun/silly/meme build.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

2 minutes ago, AegisSiege said:

I mean, you can put different powers on each load out. So nothing is stopping you from doing a serious/meta build, then having load out B be a fun/silly/meme build.

And there definitely are more than one way to make a "Meta" build with the system.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

5 minutes ago, AegisSiege said:

I mean, you can put different powers on each load out. So nothing is stopping you from doing a serious/meta build, then having load out B be a fun/silly/meme build.

This is true but the sheer cost of trying different abilities is absurd. Even if i meta each frame in one slot maybe a secondary for x activity and leave the third for fun. Constanly swapping up my fun one is just not ok considering the cost each time.

Seeing how the Helminth as i thought was to try different combos and ideas it does still seem to go against what it stands for. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

The final rank let’s you subsume all the frames. So it’s a grind to get to the fun stuff.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The final rank let’s you subsume all the frames. So it’s a grind to get to the fun stuff.

Aaah it's not about the slots brother that's an easy thing. The issue is the cost of playing around with the different abilities hurts the idea of the Helminth system.

[zoffmode]

You're free to experiment, just don't forget to toggle infinite resources with your dev tools.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Just now, zoffmode said:

You're free to experiment, just don't forget to toggle infinite resources with your dev tools.

This lad gets my post lol

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Updated the post to reflect that this is not a slot or resource issue  but going against the idea of what the Helminth system is suppose to be.

This is important to point out that the slots become nothing higher ranks that's great. The upfront costs per ability is fine if it didn't occur further resource sinking when swapping abilities around.

Meaning if you want to try heaps of combos out as per the idea of Helminth (creating our own content) then you are required to constantly sink large amounts of resources in. Meaning the idea of *fun* combos is more replaced with meta builds. This is also in part that some of the abilities on the list need some serious love as well.

Hence the current Helminth system kinda defeats it's own purpose DE.

[schilds]

It's not going to be as bad as it currently seems, once the system has been in place for a while. Keep in mind that the grind has been dumped on us all at once.

What will happen once you've done all the stuff high on your priority list?

1. You'll be spending resources only when they're efficient (favoured status).
2. You'll have resources to burn trying out other things.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

40 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

You're free to experiment, just don't forget to toggle infinite resources with your dev tools.

Haha. Ya thats a good point.

[Ahniar]

Dunno... Just slowly feeding random frames as they are baked and working from there. I'm not in any rush. 

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

46 minutes ago, schilds said:

It's not going to be as bad as it currently seems, once the system has been in place for a while. Keep in mind that the grind has been dumped on us all at once.

What will happen once you've done all the stuff high on your priority list?

1. You'll be spending resources only when they're efficient (favoured status).
2. You'll have resources to burn trying out other things.

That is true but even in the long run it does seem that changing them up on a day to day or week to week style seems not really desirable with those costs. Unless you are playing every day then i guess so. Never alone factoring in new content costs, further clan costs and so on.

I still think it would be a better idea if the heavy sink cost was a more or less one up fee. Maybe with a very small fee for swapping them around. As i believe swapping them around should be encouraged and not hindered. As this will force out meta focus builds again as with most systems. I was hoping Helminth would change that idea up alot.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

36 minutes ago, Ahniar said:

Dunno... Just slowly feeding random frames as they are baked and working from there. I'm not in any rush. 

Same here slow and easy as it goes. I have no intention to race it. Just hoping to engage the community regarding the swapping costs and the idea behind Helminth as a whole. As i thought of Helminth as a more fun end game system. Where you could log in and swap some abilities up and see what nonense you could create.

It's not like we cant already destroy any content infront of us. So the idea of making tonnes of strange builds seems like an insanely fun way to kill time between content gaps.

[anarchy753]

Absolutely.

By all means, subsuming should cost a bunch, and feeding should too, but actually adding and removing abilities should be entirely free (but also not give XP)

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

10 minutes ago, anarchy753 said:

Absolutely.

By all means, subsuming should cost a bunch, and feeding should too, but actually adding and removing abilities should be entirely free (but also not give XP)

Indeed buddy, as i have said a few times i expected the Helminth system to work like that as a way to add fun content between expacs. Currently it's just another system where you just follow the meta paths otherwise waste alot of time and resources. That to me seems insanely wrong and i would honestly love to hear what DE has to say on the matter.

Feels like they are missing the opportunity to create some insanely long and fun content hours in the game via this system.

Heck later on they could add some more crazy abilities that are more fun based over wipe room combos. That we could muck around with as well.

[Talinthis]

oh and here i thought we were going to discuss why the helminth isnt hive mind like the other infested. very disappointed 0/10

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

7 minutes ago, Talinthis said:

oh and here i thought we were going to discuss why the helminth isnt hive mind like the other infested. very disappointed 0/10

Lol we can discuss that as well if you want. This is more about a game mechanic. But that question does require some answers as well lol.

[schilds]

1 hour ago, Talinthis said:

oh and here i thought we were going to discuss why the helminth isnt hive mind like the other infested. 

What makes you think it isn't?

[Slothdrop]

The grind to get to the point of being able to subsume a warframe was not all that bad because i ignored every bit of Deimos that didn't contribute to that. The moment that i noticed that there was a cost to swap out the abilities after subsuming was truly a very disappointing moment for me.

What i was expecting to do was spend all of my time at cephalon simaris to see new potential playstyles i can unlock while i'm waiting for other warframes to subsume. If I give garuda ember's fireball can she be a viable pure fire mage with unlimited energy? Is it useful to give banshee mag's pull when she already has sonic boom? The answer to those is probably no but i'll have fun testing them out. 

With the cost to simply swap out abilities intact I feel like i'm stuck at the theory crafting stage because i'm at the carnival and all these rides are awesome but I only have so many tickets available to me and i have to figure out which rides will give me the most enjoyment. The solution to that problem is to buy the day pass that will let me ride on all the rides but unfortunately for warframe we don't have have that options. 

seriously i thought the subsume cost would be the day pass not simply the admission ticket.

sorry for that weird transition to the carnival analogy but it was the clearest way i could explain my thoughts.

 

[Yoollloooo0]

Well, I don't have that much resources, but can still use helminth for a while. I made your point before, since I love to experiment, because the infusing costs are making me go for the obvious meta choices. However, someone told me, rightfully, that once all the abilities are subsumed, there will be no more costs at all, until other frames are released.

While it is true, the infusing costs are almost as high as subsuming costs, which is not logical in my opinion. If the infusing costs could be around as much as the costs for infusing the basic helminth abilities, it would be for the best I think (like around 15% maximum *3 ).

Furthermore, I am even less inclined to experiment because there are some ability combos I want to try out, mostly for fun, but I don't even know if it will work or not because (Will Reave Mirage have multiple Reave walls ?). However, very few people are going to experiment, even if they have a lot of resources, because if someone spends a lot of resources for subsuming, then the same amount for infusing, just to find out the combo doesn't work... they might stop experimenting to go for the obvious meta choices... which is sad.

 

I thought of some ideas that could make experimenting better, while keeping the resource challenge, like making the infusing costs increase if you use an ability a lot (like if you already have 2 frames with Roar infused, the cost for the 3rd infusion will be higher). Or even make a "cancel and refund" button that you can use within a short amount of time after infusion, just in case the combo you wanted to try doesn't work. 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

How i expected the system to work was we would sink a large amount of resources in to unlocking the abilities. Then we could change them around at will to become part of our builds.

So it doesn't work like that? Damn. I wonder if anything moves between the developers ears.

[Lichformed]

Yep, it's another powercreep system that was added without thinking that has no actual fun customization value.

Please raise your hand if you were here during the lvl9999 event where we ran it with Trinity and melees without arcanes and rivens?

We have been destroying lvlXXXX enemies for years now without even touching the most game breaking items in game.

Now every casual player and their mother has had easy access to rivens, arcanes and now Helminth.

The game is beyond unbalanced or fixable anymore because you really cannot take away the toys that were given to everyone.

So yeah, it's about min maxing your already good enough damage for the end of your days now lol.