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Why does loyalty still exist?


PAK1988

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Now, I want to preface this by stating that there are several things I'm not entirely sure on, which I will lay out in this post and hope someone can set the record straight.

Now I'm sure that loyalty held some stronger purpose in the past, when Kubrows were the only pet type in the game, but that's not the case anymore and if feels like you're penalizing us for using a whole class of pets. Kavats enjoy the benefits of 100% extra damage without the risk of ever losing it. It's especially infuriating since pet AI isn't exactly mind-blowing and the prevalence of AOE can easily result in the loss of a pet that's in no way the player's fault, yet it feels like we're being blamed for it by having an unfair and significant penalty imposed on us.

1. I honestly don't know if removing loyalty was ever officially stated as part of Pets 2.0. If it was, why is it still in the game? It's been months and the job should have been done long ago. If not, well, why not? Why do you insist on maintaining such an arbitrary and unfair system? Even if it wasn't explicitly stated in patch notes it's still a reasonable assumption it would be going the way of stasis.

2. I honestly don't yet have one of the new Deimos pets so I don't know this, but are they affected by loyalty? If so, why would you continue to use an archaic system nobody likes in the newest content? If not, that just further expresses the utter lack of reasoning as to why loyalty is still an implemented system that only affects older pet types.

3. If you absolutely MUST keep the loyalty system, it could at least use some tweaking. Why do I get only 3 interactions a day? Why does each one only restore 10% loyalty when you lose twice that every pet death? How about giving a different kind of buff? An extra 100% damage is a very significant difference, yet, once again, only Kubrows carry the risk of losing it. If certain pets don't suffer the penalties imposed on others then make it fair and just remove them and provide something extra that's not as crucial as a loyalty buff.

I'd like to think I'm not the only one fed up with this, as it truly feels borderline discriminatory and serves no point or purpose other than to frustrate the player and actively render one pet type grossly inferior to another. The absurdity goes beyond measure and I sincerely hope removing loyalty is somewhere on your bullet list.

 

 

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On 2020-10-25 at 6:15 AM, x_xGamerx_x said:

So no pet pats ?

Eh, I'm sure we can have a different reason to, particularly just for being good boys/girls and deserving attention. 😀

 

Seriously, DE could just provide some other buff or benefit that doesn't create such a schism between Kubrows and Kavats, something that would be nice to have but isn't as integral as actual damage output.

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vor 44 Minuten schrieb PAK1988:

Eh, I'm sure we can have a different reason to, particularly just for being good boys/girls and deserving attention. 😀

 

Seriously, DE could just provide some other buff or benefit that doesn't create such a schism between Kubrows and Kavats, something that would be nice to have but isn't as integral as actual damage output.

Or just have it as nice visual? Not everything needs to serve a purpose and you know, immersive and nice to look at. This sums up the gaming community as it is today, only wanting rewards but forgetting the fun and just enoying things as they are if designend nice.

I admit tho i have my own gripe with DE atm and uninstalled but petting? I mean really? Feeding Warframes is ok but don't hurt animals and show how nice we are to them and geta reward from them even? Sure.

Games used to motivate due gameplay, now it is shiny rewards and feeling rewarded everytime. Yet we see how this goes with nightwave. ANd yes some rewards are nice but some parts of a game should just be, well look nice and be a visual, this is what i hate in MMO's today as example, big worlds, nice details, well designed, yet peopel sit around wating for dungeons or so, and the whole world is empty and a waste of design work. This is what i compare this too.

Pets need reworks due how squishy they are an dumb, but the petting is seriously the least problem is it.

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On 2020-10-25 at 11:54 AM, PAK1988 said:

Now I'm sure that loyalty held some stronger purpose in the past, when Kubrows were the only pet type in the game, but that's not the case anymore and if feels like you're penalizing us for using a whole class of pets.

My impression from reading on the history of the Pets system is that DE wanted a cross between a Chocobo breeding minigame and a Tamagochi. The original Kubrow system looks like it was designed to waste a lot of your time, regularly logging in to pet your pet and grinding for currency to keep buying it "don't die" injections. There's even an option to keep the pet as a pup just for cosmetics, which prevents it from decaying if I'm not mistaken. You were also supposed to keep breeding new Kubrows to get the right look you wanted, and trade with other people creating a money pit secondary market. They even had that famous "slot machine incident" where they let you pay Plat to reroll the look of your Kubrow. As with a lot of things in Warframe, DE just copied another game wholesale with the intent of figuring it out from there and... Kind of never went back to it until very recently.

You can see from Cats and other pets thereafter that DE are aware the original design isn't working. Moa Pets in particular are proof positive that the original design paradigm is pointless. Here's a pet that has no genetic degradation, no loyalty, no Stasis AND it also uses a separate weapon for offensive mods AND it can use a mixture of both Beast and Sentinel mods. Theme aside, it's an obviously superior pet design. They could have gone back and retrofitted Beast pets with a similar design, but they've gone with inertia, instead.

No, Loyalty has no reason to exist. It's an outdated aspect of a system that's been long since abandoned. I'm genuinely surprised it's still a thing, even. I'm of the opinion that it needs to be removed, as it serves no purpose.

 

4 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Or just have it as nice visual? Not everything needs to serve a purpose and you know, immersive and nice to look at. This sums up the gaming community as it is today, only wanting rewards but forgetting the fun and just enoying things as they are if designend nice.

Yup. I can interact with my Moa Pet, and that does absolutely nothing. I still do it anyway. I don't see why petting one's cat or dog or horrible infested abomination couldn't work the same way.

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not sure why that's even a problem - i think in all the years i only had a loyalty drop in the pet a couple of times. last time with one of the new one, a predasite, so yes they too have this system working for them. i don't even know it dropped to 80% that time, likely a bug but nevertheless of little concern.

mostly, i use the animals (or moa-bots) only with loadouts corresponding to the frame i use (e.g. when using a frame with high armor, health or shield, i use the link mods for them accordingly - else, i either use the 'normal' increas mods or no animal at all but a sentinel...

if one really goes down for once, i usually have no problems reviving it if not someone else did so already by the time i get there... neither i very long endless missions, sorties nor steel-path this led me to any loyalty problems so far thus i think if one have them, they need to change their way of modding or playing with them.

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On 2020-10-27 at 9:39 AM, Steel_Rook said:

My impression from reading on the history of the Pets system is that DE wanted a cross between a Chocobo breeding minigame and a Tamagochi. The original Kubrow system looks like it was designed to waste a lot of your time, regularly logging in to pet your pet and grinding for currency to keep buying it "don't die" injections. There's even an option to keep the pet as a pup just for cosmetics, which prevents it from decaying if I'm not mistaken. You were also supposed to keep breeding new Kubrows to get the right look you wanted, and trade with other people creating a money pit secondary market. They even had that famous "slot machine incident" where they let you pay Plat to reroll the look of your Kubrow. As with a lot of things in Warframe, DE just copied another game wholesale with the intent of figuring it out from there and... Kind of never went back to it until very recently.

You can see from Cats and other pets thereafter that DE are aware the original design isn't working. Moa Pets in particular are proof positive that the original design paradigm is pointless. Here's a pet that has no genetic degradation, no loyalty, no Stasis AND it also uses a separate weapon for offensive mods AND it can use a mixture of both Beast and Sentinel mods. Theme aside, it's an obviously superior pet design. They could have gone back and retrofitted Beast pets with a similar design, but they've gone with inertia, instead.

No, Loyalty has no reason to exist. It's an outdated aspect of a system that's been long since abandoned. I'm genuinely surprised it's still a thing, even. I'm of the opinion that it needs to be removed, as it serves no purpose.

 

Yup. I can interact with my Moa Pet, and that does absolutely nothing. I still do it anyway. I don't see why petting one's cat or dog or horrible infested abomination couldn't work the same way.

Huh, that's quite interesting and typical for DE. However, this isn't Final Fantasy or Tamagochi and this isn't the type of game that can emulate either very well. mostly due to the fact that pet care is far from central to Warframe's gameplay.

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14 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

not sure why that's even a problem - i think in all the years i only had a loyalty drop in the pet a couple of times. last time with one of the new one, a predasite, so yes they too have this system working for them. i don't even know it dropped to 80% that time, likely a bug but nevertheless of little concern.

mostly, i use the animals (or moa-bots) only with loadouts corresponding to the frame i use (e.g. when using a frame with high armor, health or shield, i use the link mods for them accordingly - else, i either use the 'normal' increas mods or no animal at all but a sentinel...

if one really goes down for once, i usually have no problems reviving it if not someone else did so already by the time i get there... neither i very long endless missions, sorties nor steel-path this led me to any loyalty problems so far thus i think if one have them, they need to change their way of modding or playing with them.

I believe it happens after 4 days out, but after a certain period of time, the Kubrow/Predasite/Helminth Charger will lose loyalty.

 

This is oddly not particularly widely known. I had a long time pet breeder test it for me when I was working on my guide to make sure I wasn't losing my mind and they said they had never realized in their time playing that it was a thing.

 

But yea, loyalty shouldn't be a thing anymore. Health decay only happens when you don't have the nutrio incubator upgrade. Maybe loyalty and health should be nixed altogether and just incorporated directly into the pet by default. Interactions don't need to go away for that.

 

Also, I should be able to use another pet while I incubate one or am making imprints. Seriously, I wonder what is so difficult about doing that that it hasn't happened already. 

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8 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I believe it happens after 4 days out, but after a certain period of time, the Kubrow/Predasite/Helminth Charger will lose loyalty.

i got this right on the day i 'revived' the predasite and after the maybe 2nd mission with 'it' (?) it went down from 100% to 80% during those two missions... not sure about the 'days out' - i usually loged in every day even when not playing but i when on holydays or business travels, i had occasionally been off for some weeks too without any loyalty drops... or, i had them pet in stasis then, not sure but it's likely because then we had this sill dna-degrading thing too still working which made keeping the pets out a tad dangerous (for them ^^)

if being offline for too long can cause the loyalty to drop, then the whole thing of removing the stasis pods is more or less a shot in the back: since we already could get the pet out on a moments notice the switching time wasn't an issue anymore (if one had done all the 'upgrades' that is) - the pet came out with their dna the way we put them in and no loyalty issues either, no matter how long they had been iced in there.

if indeed now they drop after some days, it would be a penalty to players who can't, for whatever reasons, log in regulary... then, we sure need an option back to but the pets into, for lack of abetter term, 'daycare' 🤣  afterall, what hell is ordis for, hmm? walk the dog, clean the litter box of the cat, open the cans of food and generally play with them - all the better if he stop giving us some silly lines all the time.

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15 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i got this right on the day i 'revived' the predasite and after the maybe 2nd mission with 'it' (?) it went down from 100% to 80% during those two missions... not sure about the 'days out' - i usually loged in every day even when not playing but i when on holydays or business travels, i had occasionally been off for some weeks too without any loyalty drops... or, i had them pet in stasis then, not sure but it's likely because then we had this sill dna-degrading thing too still working which made keeping the pets out a tad dangerous (for them ^^)

if being offline for too long can cause the loyalty to drop, then the whole thing of removing the stasis pods is more or less a shot in the back: since we already could get the pet out on a moments notice the switching time wasn't an issue anymore (if one had done all the 'upgrades' that is) - the pet came out with their dna the way we put them in and no loyalty issues either, no matter how long they had been iced in there.

if indeed now they drop after some days, it would be a penalty to players who can't, for whatever reasons, log in regulary... then, we sure need an option back to but the pets into, for lack of abetter term, 'daycare' 🤣  afterall, what hell is ordis for, hmm? walk the dog, clean the litter box of the cat, open the cans of food and generally play with them - all the better if he stop giving us some silly lines all the time.

I...honestly didn't want to believe that. I had my suspicions this may be the case, as I'd noticed an abnormal amount of loyalty loss sometimes with my kubrows. I just assumed it was a bug that would get ironed out, but you're telling me they actually purposely set loyalty to decay after taking away the only means of preserving it?!

This....is an April Fool's joke, right,?  I've been sitting here for 5 minutes just trying to comprehend the reasoning behind this and how any sane human being could actually think that's something the players would want and is a fun mechanic. Like......I can't; my feeble brain is unable to rationalize this idea. This isn't a "penalty" anymore, it's a direct slap in the face.

DE...just, wtf?!

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I fully agree that loyalty is a silly mechanic that could easily be taken out of the game, particularly as it's now confined to the worst class of pets in the game anyway. I agree with Steel Rook that it and genetic decay were upkeep mechanics lifted from other games in order to foster a daily commitment and some sort of credit drain, but as with all of those kinds of busywork incentives, they've only ended up annoying players. Kubrows (and pets in general) still need a rework, and while the relatively recent changes to pets did take out some of the busywork, it didn't take it out completely, and I think there shouldn't be any sort of incentive to pet one's companion other than the sheer cuteness of it.

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1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Companions are terrible in every gameplay scenario except a very few outliers with many unecessary caveats. They should be invulnerable. I have never seen a single MMO except Warframe where they have vulnerable companions in combat.

There was a really good system in Rappelz where they provided actual combat value. Various monster types could be tamed and trained, and they could fulfill various roles. And in Dofus/Wakfu, the summoner class was entirely based around it. 

But yeah, companions in Warframe aren't that good. Only exceptions, IMO, are the Smeeta due to Charm being unbelievably powerful, and Vulpaphyla since they literally cannot die.

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9 hours ago, PAK1988 said:

I...honestly didn't want to believe that. I had my suspicions this may be the case, as I'd noticed an abnormal amount of loyalty loss sometimes with my kubrows. I just assumed it was a bug that would get ironed out, but you're telling me they actually purposely set loyalty to decay after taking away the only means of preserving it?!

This....is an April Fool's joke, right,?  I've been sitting here for 5 minutes just trying to comprehend the reasoning behind this and how any sane human being could actually think that's something the players would want and is a fun mechanic. Like......I can't; my feeble brain is unable to rationalize this idea. This isn't a "penalty" anymore, it's a direct slap in the face.

DE...just, wtf?!

well, it's what it was at least... not sure though if it still is since i didn't noticed any 'expected' drop in recent week beside the above mentioned glitch with a newly revived predasite.

but anyway, that is the entry from the wiki site about the loyalty:

 

Loyalty (Affection)

Loyalty refers to the Kubrow's affection towards the player and affects its combat performance. All Kubrows start out with 100% Loyalty, which provides a +100% bonus to the Kubrow's base attack damage.

Loyalty decays by 10% on days the player has not logged in. Loyalty decays by 40% when the Kubrow dies in combat, with the exception of being killed as a result of the owner dying. No negative effects are incurred at less than 0% Loyalty.

Lost Loyalty can be restored using the Interact function on the Incubator, where the Tenno plays with their Kubrow, restoring 10% Loyalty per interaction. Loyalty can only be restored up to 3 times in a 24-hour server cycle, however players can interact with their Kubrow as many times as they wish.

 

if it still holds true, then De seriously should change that system since now there is no way of bagging at least the one pet active (if any are breed/revived ofc). i don't think they meda this intentionally but just (again) forgot the consequences of changes they made to the system...

edit: as someone already mentioned, that only counts for kubrows, not kavats, and funny enough, not for predasites either... so it really just seems like an overlooked 'feature' that should have been removed alongside the recent changes.

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14 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

well, it's what it was at least... not sure though if it still is since i didn't noticed any 'expected' drop in recent week beside the above mentioned glitch with a newly revived predasite.

but anyway, that is the entry from the wiki site about the loyalty:

 

Loyalty (Affection)

Loyalty refers to the Kubrow's affection towards the player and affects its combat performance. All Kubrows start out with 100% Loyalty, which provides a +100% bonus to the Kubrow's base attack damage.

Loyalty decays by 10% on days the player has not logged in. Loyalty decays by 40% when the Kubrow dies in combat, with the exception of being killed as a result of the owner dying. No negative effects are incurred at less than 0% Loyalty.

Lost Loyalty can be restored using the Interact function on the Incubator, where the Tenno plays with their Kubrow, restoring 10% Loyalty per interaction. Loyalty can only be restored up to 3 times in a 24-hour server cycle, however players can interact with their Kubrow as many times as they wish.

 

if it still holds true, then De seriously should change that system since now there is no way of bagging at least the one pet active (if any are breed/revived ofc). i don't think they meda this intentionally but just (again) forgot the consequences of changes they made to the system...

edit: as someone already mentioned, that only counts for kubrows, not kavats, and funny enough, not for predasites either... so it really just seems like an overlooked 'feature' that should have been removed alongside the recent changes.

Fair enough, I know DE isn't doing this intentionally to spite us, but come on, is it REALLY so hard to just cut loyalty out completely? I know they'll get around to it, but....the sooner the better, and we all know how much DE loves to procrastinate on QoL changes and I somehow doubt we'd need another mainline to achieve this. A complete rework definitely, but not removing just one specific system, which could likely be addressed in a hotfix.

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15 hours ago, PAK1988 said:

Fair enough, I know DE isn't doing this intentionally to spite us, but come on, is it REALLY so hard to just cut loyalty out completely? I know they'll get around to it, but....the sooner the better, and we all know how much DE loves to procrastinate on QoL changes and I somehow doubt we'd need another mainline to achieve this. A complete rework definitely, but not removing just one specific system, which could likely be addressed in a hotfix.

i sometimes wonder about how the devs at DE work - they sure use a lot of different ways about prioritizing their 'to-do's' than i do (or other software developers i know)... that goes for bug-fixing as well as QoL implementation (or removal of the contrary ^^)  can't say much about how they handle the 'new' stuff for that's more for the general roadmap that they sure have... somehow ^^

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8 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i sometimes wonder about how the devs at DE work - they sure use a lot of different ways about prioritizing their 'to-do's' than i do (or other software developers i know)... that goes for bug-fixing as well as QoL implementation (or removal of the contrary ^^)  can't say much about how they handle the 'new' stuff for that's more for the general roadmap that they sure have... somehow ^^

Yeah, I feel that thinking about it too hard will just give you a headache. I've just gotten to the point where it doesn't phase me anymore but that doesn't stop me from ranting about these things on the internet in the hope that someone from DE will actually read it and consider the merits of what I'm trying to say, but I digress.

Bottom line is that this is something that should have been removed long ago and DE is way overdue to making that happen.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2020-11-12 at 3:18 AM, Twilight-Knight said:

I don't find reason to oppose this post but I don't have reason to agree with it etheir. Since the action remind me of the day I come to warframe despite it disappointing us for a time now.

It's a pointless, obsolete system that punishes the player far more than helps them. Kubrows have no reason to keep loyalty if every other pet in the game doesn't have to deal with that handicap. Bottom line is that it really has no place in the current game and I doubt anyone would lose any sleep over it disappearing.

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On 2020-10-25 at 5:54 AM, PAK1988 said:

Now, I want to preface this by stating that there are several things I'm not entirely sure on, which I will lay out in this post and hope someone can set the record straight.

Now I'm sure that loyalty held some stronger purpose in the past, when Kubrows were the only pet type in the game, but that's not the case anymore and if feels like you're penalizing us for using a whole class of pets. Kavats enjoy the benefits of 100% extra damage without the risk of ever losing it. It's especially infuriating since pet AI isn't exactly mind-blowing and the prevalence of AOE can easily result in the loss of a pet that's in no way the player's fault, yet it feels like we're being blamed for it by having an unfair and significant penalty imposed on us.

1. I honestly don't know if removing loyalty was ever officially stated as part of Pets 2.0. If it was, why is it still in the game? It's been months and the job should have been done long ago. If not, well, why not? Why do you insist on maintaining such an arbitrary and unfair system? Even if it wasn't explicitly stated in patch notes it's still a reasonable assumption it would be going the way of stasis.

2. I honestly don't yet have one of the new Deimos pets so I don't know this, but are they affected by loyalty? If so, why would you continue to use an archaic system nobody likes in the newest content? If not, that just further expresses the utter lack of reasoning as to why loyalty is still an implemented system that only affects older pet types.

3. If you absolutely MUST keep the loyalty system, it could at least use some tweaking. Why do I get only 3 interactions a day? Why does each one only restore 10% loyalty when you lose twice that every pet death? How about giving a different kind of buff? An extra 100% damage is a very significant difference, yet, once again, only Kubrows carry the risk of losing it. If certain pets don't suffer the penalties imposed on others then make it fair and just remove them and provide something extra that's not as crucial as a loyalty buff.

I'd like to think I'm not the only one fed up with this, as it truly feels borderline discriminatory and serves no point or purpose other than to frustrate the player and actively render one pet type grossly inferior to another. The absurdity goes beyond measure and I sincerely hope removing loyalty is somewhere on your bullet list.

 

 

You got to go by animalistic behavior.

A dog is loyal to its owner, and thus the strength of that bond increases damage because it actually wants to protect you. If you neglect it, it will seek a new owner. Its opinion of you changes based on how good you are to them. That's common sense folks. 

Now a cat, is a whole other story. Cats retain their predatory nature and instinct regardless of domestication. They're always alert, always on the lookout if they're healthy. They keep their own claws sharp.  So it's natural on this method.

This is why a cat or should I say a Kavat, doesnt require the same system as a Kubrow. Cats are often indifferent when it comes being domesticated. even if dependent on their owner, they maintain a image of independence. 

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On 2020-10-25 at 12:55 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's like this because someone at DE is stubborn as hell and hates it when they make changes to the game based on what we want (especially the removal of features for QOL.  Why do you think stamina keeps making a comeback with RJ and mechs?), as opposed to what the devs want based on some "vision" for the game.

Try and think about it just a little logically before complaining. A warframe, is a near perfect humanoid. It's organs are enhanced insanely compared to the norm. So it makes sense that it can sprint around virtually forever, especially since it is fueled by raw energy rather than a digestive system. (Well, maybe not for Grendel, hehe) 

Then we have the Railjacks. The first extremely old tech mentioned, thus making the warframes seem like toddlers in terms of age. They are made from the technology available during their time. Fuel reserves and boost levels on a ship is normal and adds a system with the feeling of realism to it. 

And now we have the Necromechs. This one is even easier to explain why it has sprint duration. Not only does the above information apply to it, This thing is literally a huge metal shell, with massive firepower and reasonable maneuverability. but it does not have any infestation based enhancements. It is fueled entirely by the void energy provided by the operator. The operator has limits, duration and so on.

You slap that little engine inside this walking ten ton tank and you expect it to be able to sprint around forever? You take a little 4 banger engine and slap it into a Kenworth W900 and see how far you can get before it kills out. LOL. 

 

Bottom line, realism is relatable if it fits with the lore. Realism adds more fun and strategy to the game. Realism is king. 

 

If you want the developers to take any system out of the game because you get annoyed by it then I suggest playing a few classic and retro games. It's what I do. It will grant you the perspective needed to appreciate the game, it's developers and their handiwork. 

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