Ash upcoming Bladestorm tweak is going to ruin Ash's build variety

[Zedzee_true]

Ash with negative energy efficiency, is a niche setup that requires caution, game knowledge and a more tactical approach to combat scenarios. Promising great pay-offs.

A high risk - high reward play-style, that is enjoyable.

 

The change will, supposedly, immediately stack all three "marks"

Which will result in tripling the energy cost to kill one enemy at the corner of a room.

 

Problem arises when you desire to kill more.

 

Yes the energy you don't use to kill will be refunded. But it doesn't matter as it's about DoT, meaning that on higher levels it will proc all 3 bleeds even though the ennemy can still be killed by just one. Consuming the energy for all three marks in the process.

 

This means in such scenarios, the change to Bladestorm effectively divides the amount of enemies you can target per room, per energy pool - by 3.

In a game where kills per second rule... This is a major nerf to the play-style out of nowhere! 

 

 

Lastly, Ash never struggled with single target damage.

This change combined with it's damages done to negative energy_efficiency builds will reduce Ash's total kills per second drastically across the board.

All of this for what? For him to become more convenient to players who's damage is not high enough and who force themselves to stare at a target to apply all 3 marks?

 

If you want to make Ash more interesting, idk, make his shuriken execute low hp people for example! But don't you ruin a play-style for the sake of convenience!

[Hypernaut1]

I wish we could amplify the damage by joining in. And I wish we could join in by just holding 4

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

as someone who saw no true need for the change. Personally i can say this isnt a bad change compared to all of what other players have suggested. I'd also like to state while you do have a reason to worry everything youve stated is in theory untill we actually get our hands on it. Overall this is a fair change IMO it still keeps ash playstyle at core but it does help those out who somewhat needed it ( ive seen alot of complaints saying the marking system is nauesting and has literally given a few ppl motion sickness) so i'd say just wait till we can get our hands on it! im gonna be testing it out as well. I do think you are on to something however 

[Nailclipper]

The current way to apply marks is just a not good gameplay mechanic. I hate that I need to wiggle my mouse around, shaking the screen, and losing aim.

[Wolfdoggie]

Make it 1press cone AoE. I hate wasting time marking individual things for a planned future attack in a 'fast paced' game that throws hundreds of things at you + he already has 3 for single target spam damage, at least for the things not immune. The change is an improvement that will reduce the gameplay that makes me feel like my wrist is spasming but I still hate marking and would prefer removal of spasming over reducing.

Remove the forced stealth synergy and just make energy cost not suck to begin with so low duration/non stealth-cheese users can have diversity. I'd honestly helminth his 2, it's anti-fashion frame. :)

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Make it 1press cone AoE. I hate wasting time marking individual things for a planned future attack in a 'fast paced' game that throws hundreds of things at you + he already has 3 for single target spam damage, at least for the things not immune. The change is an improvement that will reduce the gameplay that makes me feel like my wrist is spasming but I still hate marking and would prefer removal of spasming over reducing.

Remove the forced stealth synergy and just make energy cost not suck to begin with so low duration/non stealth-cheese users can have diversity. I'd honestly helminth his 2, it's anti-fashion frame. :)

you do realize they removed it one and done for a reason. and id say if you dislike the marking mechainc that much ash really isnt for you. no disrespect 

[Wolfdoggie]

1 hour ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

you do realize they removed it one and done for a reason. and id say if you dislike the marking mechainc that much ash really isnt for you. no disrespect 

Considering he was my #1 played + favorite looking warframe till they added the worse mechanic in history to him, with the exception of limbo's everything.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Well forcing a player to slow their gameplay to a crawl to be “tactical” just makes a Warframe a worse option than others.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

20 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Considering he was my #1 played + favorite looking warframe till they added the worse mechanic in history to him, with the exception of limbo's everything.

again you do realize why it was removed right? and if them adding a mark mechanic made ash "ugly" to you afterwards im taking that moreso as personal.

also i'd like to state that objectively limbo is one of the best frames to date to kit but due to lack of experience + players who constantly put down limbo players or only tend to put negativity on a pedestal you'd not see that

[Bakahung]

I got what OP is talking about , but the way Reb talks about sounds like it will cost the same per target , just does triple damage to the target .( 3 mark per marking )

I do got the concern though , let me be clear .

 

[Wolfdoggie]

On 2020-11-08 at 2:44 AM, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

again you do realize why it was removed right? and if them adding a mark mechanic made ash "ugly" to you afterwards im taking that moreso as personal.

also i'd like to state that objectively limbo is one of the best frames to date to kit but due to lack of experience + players who constantly put down limbo players or only tend to put negativity on a pedestal you'd not see that

There's 1000 better ways they could have changed it that weren't immediate bad decisions. Mesa and Ember got a much better mechanic for example (probably cuz they're female frames). I don't recall anyone from the community suggesting or supporting the marking mechanic back then. Feedback was just ignored, he was never touched or addressed again, and his popularity plummeted till Ash players were rarer than Excalibur Prime. 

And Limbo is just not a good idea overall in a multitude of ways that were even worse on his release. Regardless of his usefulness in certain situations hes been breaking everything he comes in contact with and is just not a good design. Stealth/Invisibility (with how awful the AI is) is also totally broken cheese in that aspect too; which is why it's useful. But it's not as votalite in teams.

[Loza03]

On 2020-11-08 at 7:44 AM, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

also i'd like to state that objectively limbo is one of the best frames to date to kit but due to lack of experience + players who constantly put down limbo players or only tend to put negativity on a pedestal you'd not see that

I wish I could agree, but Stasis is a horrible ability design-wise.

If something's affected by it (i.e. the vast majority of enemies) you're personally completely safe from them in the rift. You're also safe from anything outside the rift, making him the only frame where he can be perfectly safe and also fight back (Baruuk also has the ability to achieve 100% damage avoidance, but he can't attack at the same time) And it's also only affected by half the game's ability stats.

I've been having a ton of fun with him ever since I axed stasis from my setup though.

[Crabopoulos-Michael]

On the surface sounds like a little QoL change. I like it, I just hope it doesn't screw up my energy consumption tho.

[BasKy]

En 8/11/2020 a las 4:58, Bakahung dijo:

I got what OP is talking about , but the way Reb talks about sounds like it will cost the same per target , just does triple damage to the target .( 3 mark per marking )

I do got the concern though , let me be clear .

 

It never crossed my mind that it would cost triple the amount. If this is the case, why? The first mark already does overkill damage most of the time, so this is quite a nerf for 90% of the game.

Making Ash deal three marks of damage with triple energy cost without option seems, to me, like something DE wouldn't do. It's like if they were min maxing my build by slapping Blind Rage on it.

[Bakahung]

3 hours ago, BasKy said:

It never crossed my mind that it would cost triple the amount. If this is the case, why? The first mark already does overkill damage most of the time, so this is quite a nerf for 90% of the game.

Making Ash deal three marks of damage with triple energy cost without option seems, to me, like something DE wouldn't do. It's like if they were min maxing my build by slapping Blind Rage on it.

Yes , that's... What I mean . I don't think it will cost triple like OP said

[BasKy]

hace 58 minutos, Bakahung dijo:

Yes , that's... What I mean . I don't think it will cost triple like OP said

I was agreeing with you

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It'll be fine. It's a great middle of the road change and appeases both sides.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2020-11-09 at 4:33 AM, Wolfdoggie said:

There's 1000 better ways they could have changed it that weren't immediate bad decisions. Mesa and Ember got a much better mechanic for example (probably cuz they're female frames). I don't recall anyone from the community suggesting or supporting the marking mechanic back then. Feedback was just ignored, he was never touched or addressed again, and his popularity plummeted till Ash players were rarer than Excalibur Prime. 

what would be your suggestion for removing the one and done mechanic but keeping the aoe easy kill? also id like to state even with embers 4 being redone to another one and done ability her playtime still has not been well

[Wolfdoggie]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

what would be your suggestion for removing the one and done mechanic but keeping the aoe easy kill? also id like to state even with embers 4 being redone to another one and done ability her playtime still has not been well

It's still a better more logical targeting mechanic when they stipped away the circle aoe. And Mesa's 4 is still powerful and non annoying to use cuz it also got a better more logical targeting mechanic. All 3 of those frames had something DE hated: Huge circle AoE nukeage and too passive of gameplay. Ash was the only one to get a terrible unnessarily complex/gimmicky mechanic. (Saryn was #4 but got a free pass somehow but whatever. Volt buff balances it out I guess).

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

7 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

It's still a better more logical targeting mechanic when they stipped away the circle aoe. And Mesa's 4 is still powerful and non annoying to use cuz it also got a better more logical targeting mechanic. All 3 of those frames had something DE hated: Huge circle AoE nukeage and too passive of gameplay. Ash was the only one to get a terrible unnessarily complex/gimmicky mechanic. (Saryn was #4 but got a free pass somehow but whatever. Volt buff balances it out I guess).

until the augment for mesa was dropped its a stationary ability that would've required you to lose your mobility.

embers new four yes is a press all to nuke but while respecting los (somewhat) and also slows down movement.

 

overall i enjoy the new target system for ash but i do think the targeting reticle should be bigger to allow more marks at once and the newest change isnt that bad

[Yual]

Il y a 7 heures, (PSN)sweatshawp a dit :

until the augment for mesa was dropped its a stationary ability that would've required you to lose your mobility.

embers new four yes is a press all to nuke but while respecting los (somewhat) and also slows down movement.

 

overall i enjoy the new target system for ash but i do think the targeting reticle should be bigger to allow more marks at once and the newest change isnt that bad

The upcoming change is really bad. It is actually a big nerf. Now clones are force to do 3 animations marks on each enemies, wich gonna make BS a lot slower.

 

Idk why they have to change bs that way. Hes already deal a ton of damage for a very low cost.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2020-11-07 at 5:40 AM, Zedzee_true said:

Which will result in tripling the energy cost to kill one enemy at the corner of a room.

Where did they ever say that?

Could be that one mark costs the same as one mark, but now just has three attacks to it. In which case for people with careful builds it's no different, but people with dedicated Bladestorm builds it's a buff.

I don't want to be overly-optimistic, but let's wait and see, hmm?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, Yual said:

The upcoming change is really bad. It is actually a big nerf. Now clones are force to do 3 animations marks on each enemies, wich gonna make BS a lot slower.

 

Idk why they have to change bs that way. Hes already deal a ton of damage for a very low cost.

Attack speed mods affect bladestorm animations. It's not an issue.

[Azamagon]

Imo, he needed more changes so his skills don't obsolete one another (in particular Shuriken vs Bladestorm).

Like this:

Spoiler

PASSIVE:
On top of the bleedbonus, it's expanded to also let him see bleeding enemies through walls (similar to Codex scanning silhouettes)

SHURIKEN:

• ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
  • To give Shuriken a baseline, non-augmented use, I'd propose to add this "ability bleed execution" effect on it:
    • At any time when an enemy is bleeding from Shuriken, if the bleed-damage of Shuriken (and Bladestorm!) is currently enough to kill the enemy, all this bleed-damage is dealt instantly, killing the target
  • Shurikens also stagger (impact-proc) the struck enemies, or instead maybe briefly stun them (same animation as opening for finishers)?
• CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
  • Tapcast = Throw 1 shuriken which bounces over to 1/2/2/3 additional targets. Homing range is affected by Ability Range. Prioritizes to bounce to unaffected targets first.
  • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Throw 1 shuriken which travels straight forward, which has 1/2/2/3 meter punchthrough and "razor ashes" added to it, which expands its horizontal hitbox (but only for striking enemies, not the environment) by about 1 meter. Punchthrough and ash-width are affected by Ability Range.

SMOKE SCREEN:

• ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
  • Also leaves a lingering smoke cloud on the cast location with very low opacity (so it doesn't block ally vision).  This cloud has multiple effects:
    • Blocks enemy line-of-sight, capable of forcing them to enter the cloud.
    • Once an enemy enters the cloud, it can only see in a 2 meter radius and they have a 50% chance to miss their attacks (melee included).
    • The cloud's duration is the same as Ash's invisibility (2/4/6/8 seconds)
• CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
  • Recasting the ability midduration removes the invisibility from Ash (but keeps the lingering cloud), which allows him to recast the ability again.
  • Using the recasting effect allows Ash to place more than one cloud at once. Max 2 clouds can exist though (recasting again when 2 clouds are already out removes the oldest one first).
• AUGMENT CHANGES:
  • Whenever an ally enters the lingering cloud, they gain invisibility for 30/50/70/100% of the cloud's remaining duration. (Note: Even if Ash removes the cloud via recasting after they have grabbed the invisibility, they still keep their invisibility)
  • Additionally increases the range of Smoke Screen by 15/25/35/50%.

TELEPORT:

• ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
  • In addition to its current effects, it also opens enemies up to finishers in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius around the landing location (moddable with Ability Range).
  • General "open to finisher" effect (this is not just for Ash): If an enemy has been the subject of any attack or ability which opens them to finishers, they now get a symbol over them (similar to the Parazon's Mercy), which indicates that they are now eligible for finishers. What this means is that even if the enemy doesn't get into the stun-animation, you are still able to use a finisher on them! This effect could last for about 4 seconds or so.
    • Note: If an enemy has both a regular finisher symbol on them, and the Parazon's Mercy on them, the Mercy-execution takes priority.
• CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
  • Tapcast = Same as now (i.e. it requires a target). However, it can now target allies or enemies through walls, if they are visible/highlighted. Note the synergy with his expanded passive and Shuriken's capability to travel through walls, in particular!
  • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Allows Ash to teleport forward without a target, up to 20/40/45/60 meters (does not pass environment though).
    • If you teleport to a wall, he will automatically cling to it, with 1 second bonus to the wall-cling duration. You can let go of the wall-cling by just tapping your aim-button.

BLADESTORM:

• MECHANICAL CASTING CHANGES:
  • Very heavily changed how it is cast. It no longer uses the manual marking system, but rather like this:
    • Upon cast, Ash marks up to 8/10/12/15 enemies who are within line of sight in a 360 degree manner, and within a 10/12/15/20 meter radius (moddable with Ability Range). If an enemy is highlighted through a wall, it's considered to be within line of sight (they ofc still abide to the radius limit).
    • Each enemy get 3 marks on them, and the clones start attacking immediately.
    • Cannot recast or cancel the ability while its taking place, it needs to finish first (This is not new, just emphasizing this point)
    • The ability now shows how many enemies are marked, rather than how many marks are placed
    • The ability now costs 100 energy, regardless of many enemies are marked.
• CASTING OPTIONS:
  • Tapcast = Only sends out his 2 clones to attack the enemies
  • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Sends out the 2 clones and Ash joining immediately
  • Holdcast midduration = If only the clones were sent out (i.e. a tapcast), Ash can join them by holdcasting midduration, if he is withing 20/40/45/60 meters of at least one of the marked enemies.
• EFFECT CHANGES:
  • If Ash is invisible upon casting Bladestorm, so are his clones.
  • If an enemy is bleeding and within range of Bladestorm's radius, it gains a special visual effect on it to indicate that they are within its effect-range.

 

So there. What this means is:

• Bladestorm is no longer a hassle with its marking mechanic. But, it now requires him to be in the midst of combat instead.
• Teleport allows him to quickly position himself - such as in the midst of a clump of enemies, to for example cast Bladestorm on them
• Smoke Screen allows him to safely BE in the midst of a clump of enemies, while also being a good general survivability tool - now also more helpful for the team (augmented or not)
• Shuriken has two new strong roles: 1) Making enemies bleed through walls allows him to expose unseen enemies (perfect for Bladestorm and/or Teleport) and 2) It quickens enemies' death with its "ability bleed execution" effect, far more so if it's combined with Bladestorm!

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Attack speed mods affect bladestorm animations. It's not an issue.

since when? they have never its actually been casting speed