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Beam guns' status chance increased by Multishot?


H_LoR_--_LF_bomb_carrier
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Do multishot mods increase status chance for beam weapons like Nukor, Quanta, etc. 

I saw a YT video where the creator named Gaz TTV is saying multishot is great for beam guns' status, here's the title: [WARFRAME] New Mods Better Than Hunter Munitions? Possible New Nukor Meta???! l Call Of Tempestarii 

He said it around 8 min, 45 sec 

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The short is no. The long is "err, one exception". For single-stream beam weapons, multishot does not increase status chance. However for the phage, it can increase the amount of beams, and thus the amount of hits per tick. If you are using a synapse. However, it will not increase the amount of beams, just the final calculated damage.

For the kuva nukor, to increase the beam chaining to more enemies, add punch-through and preferably range as well.

Edited by Artimessheed
Only the phage. The other two do not get more beams.
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31 minutes ago, Artimessheed said:

The short is no. The long is "err, one exception". For single-stream beam weapons, multishot does not increase status chance. However for the phage, it can increase the amount of beams, and thus the amount of hits per tick. If you are using a synapse. However, it will not increase the amount of beams, just the final calculated damage.

For the kuva nukor, to increase the beam chaining to more enemies, add punch-through and preferably range as well.

The wiki says that it does increase status%, among other things but you can't see it in mod screen.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Multishot

 

 

Edited by nebfab
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9 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... That you shouldn't believe everything that's said on YT...

That's why I'm trying confirm from multiple people, smartass. So far there's two people who validated the claim from the YT vid, one in this forum and another from the Status Effect Wiki

 

Ladyvan:  ''Yes, sometime after the shotgun rework, multishot on beam weapons suddenly (and I'm fairly certain without patchnote) started adding the status chance together when they hit the same target, instead of just using the status chance of a single beam.

 

So the Phage has 15.5% status and 7 innate multishot. When the beams are focused, phage has a base status chance of 108.5%. Adding 100% multishot would double that.

Quanta Vandal has 2 beams and a 45% status chance, so 90%.

 

It should work for weapons that only have 1 base beam as well.''

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, nebfab said:

The wiki says that it does increase status%, among other things but you can't see it in mod screen.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Multishot

Huh. That's either something very new or a mechanic that's been misunderstood for years then.

Edit: Looks like someone been reverting that edit in and out of the wiki since last august; if I'm reading the log correctly.

Does anyone else know anything about this?

 

Edit: Ok, now I'm confused on the subject.

Are we talking about all continuous weapons, as the wiki now implies, or just (actual(not cosmetic))multi-beam weapons, like the Phage and Convectrix?

Those certainly have benefited from MS Status since the shotgun rework, as each beam can now apply status and MS increases the beam count, but I was pretty sure single beam weapons don't get extra beams and status rolls.

Edited by TheArcSet
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Huh. That's either something very new or a mechanic that's been misunderstood for years then.

Edit: Looks like someone been reverting that edit in and out of the wiki since last august; if I'm reading the log correctly.

Does anyone else know anything about this?

 

Edit: Ok, now I'm confused on the subject.

Are we talking about all continuous weapons, as the wiki now implies, or just (actual(not cosmetic))multi-beam weapons, like the Phage and Convectrix?

Those certainly have benefited from MS Status since the shotgun rework, as each beam can now apply status and MS increases the beam count, but I was pretty sure single beam weapons don't get extra beams and status rolls.

I've done some testing in the Simulacrum with my Ignis Wraith which is considered as single beam gun. I had three +status chance mods equipped: Rifle Aptitude, Thermite Rounds and Hammer Shot, which boosted Ignis' status chance to 95.8%. Some + fire rate mods, Arcane Acceleration and Wisp's speed mote so I can empty the 200 magazine quickly. No other elemental type mods were added so it's pure Heat.

 

Heat procs' status effect duration is refreshed as you proc Heat again within its 6 seconds duration, and can be stacked infinitely.

 

With Split Chamber and Vigilante armaments (+150% multishot combined), I emptied the magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks on an enemy and stacked up an average of 960 Heat procs. 

With no +multishot mods equipped, magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks expended on an enemy stacked up an average of 375 Heat procs.

Yes +multishot increases status chance even for single beam guns.

Edited by H_LoR_--_LF_bomb_carrier
200 magazine -> magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks... I'm not saying I emptied 200 individual magazines
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2 hours ago, H_LoR_--_LF_bomb_carrier said:

I've done some testing in the Simulacrum with my Ignis Wraith which is considered as single beam gun. I had three +status chance mods equipped: Rifle Aptitude, Thermite Rounds and Hammer Shot, which boosted Ignis' status chance to 95.8%. Some + fire rate mods, Arcane Acceleration and Wisp's speed mote so I can empty the 200 magazine quickly. No other elemental type mods were added so it's pure Heat.

 

Heat procs' status effect duration is refreshed as you proc Heat again within its 6 seconds duration, and can be stacked infinitely.

 

With Split Chamber and Vigilante armaments (+150% multishot combined), I emptied the magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks on an enemy and stacked up an average of 960 Heat procs. 

With no +multishot mods equipped, magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks expended on an enemy stacked up an average of 375 Heat procs.

Yes +multishot increases status chance even for single beam guns.

Ah, that's clever.  I knew there was a reason DE made heat procs behave so strangely...for science!  😉

Just in case the Ignis is weird, I went ahead and did a similar test with the Flux Rifle, which is about as basic as a beam weapon can get.  One magazine per target, 4 targets each..

No multi: 13, 16, 16, 17 heat procs

Split Chamber: 26, 26, 29, 34

I don't have a catalyst or any forma in the weapon, which is why the amounts are so low.   Plus it's not pure heat.

In any case, a substantial difference.  Averages out to almost 90% better with Split, which would be the expected percentage if it's contributing status chance.

edit:  damn it, now I want to forma up this silly weapon.  😄

 

Edited by Tiltskillet
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On 2021-03-22 at 3:39 AM, H_LoR_--_LF_bomb_carrier said:

I've done some testing in the Simulacrum with my Ignis Wraith which is considered as single beam gun. I had three +status chance mods equipped: Rifle Aptitude, Thermite Rounds and Hammer Shot, which boosted Ignis' status chance to 95.8%. Some + fire rate mods, Arcane Acceleration and Wisp's speed mote so I can empty the 200 magazine quickly. No other elemental type mods were added so it's pure Heat.

 

Heat procs' status effect duration is refreshed as you proc Heat again within its 6 seconds duration, and can be stacked infinitely.

 

With Split Chamber and Vigilante armaments (+150% multishot combined), I emptied the magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks on an enemy and stacked up an average of 960 Heat procs. 

With no +multishot mods equipped, magazine's 200 bullets?/dmg ticks expended on an enemy stacked up an average of 375 Heat procs.

Yes +multishot increases status chance even for single beam guns.

Thanks for sharing this clever testing setup.

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yes, thesedays Continuous Weapons gain the full benefit from Multi-Shot that any other Weapon would.
with Continuous Weapons that fire multiple "beams", getting exponentially more effect, even.

this is a major part of their great power.

 

- signed, a Continuous Weapons enthusiast.

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I dont' think so....Multishot On Beam Weapons increases the Total Damage in a 1 to 1 Fashion....

I believe there's only one Beam Gun that actually does spawn multiple Beams from Multishot.... I can't remember it's name.

On 2021-03-21 at 1:54 PM, Artimessheed said:

My bad, I didn't know it added its multiplication at that step. Guess it will be time to revamp my beam/MS knowledge.

 

Hmmm... I won't 😤... I can't Stand Beams !!! 

 

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39 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I dont' think so....Multishot On Beam Weapons increases the Total Damage in a 1 to 1 Fashion....

I believe there's only one Beam Gun that actually does spawn multiple Beams from Multishot.... I can't remember it's name.

Hmmm... I won't 😤... I can't Stand Beams !!! 

 

As others have already shown, multi-shot DOES increase status chance of beam weapons. However, as mentioned in the wiki, this is not reflected in the arsenal.

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yes, multishot increases status chance for all weapons, if the bullet hit the target, each tick of damage has its own chance to proc the status effect with that same base status chance percentage.

 

Interestingly, fire rate on beam weapons increases all that into a shorter time period. sounds simple, but fire rate on beam weapons is really strong.

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It is a matter of semantics. Increasing status chance (= from one projectile/beam) and increasing the chance to proc status (from one "trigger pull") are two different things.  

Since beam weapons doesn't get "multi-beams" in the same way as other weapons get actual "multi-shots", multishot on beam weapons handles status chance the same way it handles damage. If you have a SC of 35% and a MS of 3, beam weapons increases the status chance of it's single beam instead of adding another second and third beam.

So with SC=35% and MS=3:

  • on a projectile weapon you would fire three projectiles, all three with an individual 35% to proc status (= a 73% total of proc'ing status from at least one of them).
  • on a beam weapon you still fire only one beam, but the chance to proc status is increased respectively from MS. Exactly how DE calculates this is "not known exactly", but it isn't simply "additive"/"summed together" (35%+35%+35%=105% total, as suggested in thread), since this would make beam weapons much (MUCH) better than normal weapons with status in regard to multishot.

If anyone has exact, provable information on how beam multishot status chance is calculated, I would be interested to know. But according the currently available information the calculation is multiplicative (not additive). Depending on exactly how this is calculated MS on beam weapons is slightly exactly the same as on other weapons, or slightly worse. The "slightly worse" comes from the fact that if MS on beam weapons is calculated as one (increased) chance of status proc, beam weapons would have the same overall chance to proc status but lack a chance to proc additional procs (multiple procs).

In the second case ("slightly worse") and using the numbers above (SC=35% and MS=3) a beam weapon would have exactly the same chance to proc at least one status proc (73%) but for beam weapons it would always be "only one" = they would lack the capacity to proc two or three procs (from the three separate "multishots"). 

Edited by Graavarg
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5 minutes ago, Graavarg said:
  • on a beam weapon you still fire only one beam, but the chance to proc status is increased respectively from MS. Exactly how DE calculates this is "not known exactly", but it isn't simply "additive"/"summed together" (35%+35%+35%=105% total, as suggested in thread), since this would make beam weapons much (MUCH) better than normal weapons with status in regard to multishot.

Supposedly that is exactly how it works (105%), and it is also the exact reason why damaging status effects are much better on beam weapons than projectile ones. On a projectile weapon, you get 3 35% chances at a 100% damage status effect - on a beam weapon, you get 1 105% chance at a 300% damage status effect.

3x0.35x1<1x1.05x3

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Supposedly that is exactly how it works (105%), and it is also the exact reason why damaging status effects are much better on beam weapons than projectile ones. On a projectile weapon, you get 3 35% chances at a 100% damage status effect - on a beam weapon, you get 1 105% chance at a 300% damage status effect.

3x0.35x1<1x1.05x3

I did some play-testing with Quanta Vandal some time ago, with (if I remember correctly) 108% SC and 3.8 MS. If the status chance calculation would be additive, you would end up with 410% total SC, or 4 guaranteed procs per shot/tic. Though I am not 100% sure, I don't think that is what happened.

Of course it isn't all that easy to see, since the game now drops some of the damage numbers (if there is "a lot") and Quanta Vandal shoots twice per 1 ammo (= uses 0.5 ammo per damage tic) and 12 shots per sec. But instead of a SC of 410% (4 procs per shot) it felt quite close to the 122% (1 proc per shot + 1 additional proc every fourth shot) you get from the multiplicative model.

Edited by Graavarg
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18 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Since beam weapons doesn't get "multi-beams" in the same way as other weapons get actual "multi-shots"

they very much do.

but extra 'Projectiles' also adds an additional effect as well.
Continuous Weapons get exponential benefits from Multi-Shot, is the one sentence summary.

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5 hours ago, taiiat said:

they very much do.

but extra 'Projectiles' also adds an additional effect as well.
Continuous Weapons get exponential benefits from Multi-Shot, is the one sentence summary.

Care to explain a bit more in-depth? Even a link to relevant (proven) info would be helpful, since the wiki doesn't explain anything in depth (about MS effects on status chance).

The damage calculations are easy and straightforward, but how does the game calculate and apply status procs from multishot + status chance? This is one of the more cryptic parts of WF: lots of opinions and very little hard facts available.

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2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Care to explain a bit more in-depth? Even a link to relevant (proven) info would be helpful, since the wiki doesn't explain anything in depth (about MS effects on status chance).

The damage calculations are easy and straightforward, but how does the game calculate and apply status procs from multishot + status chance? This is one of the more cryptic parts of WF: lots of opinions and very little hard facts available.

reverse engineering the Math is not something i find fun, but the test results are clear where if you say, double your Multi-Shot, you get much more than double the results. consistently.
what is the Formula? beats me, i can't be bothered to reverse engineer something that obfuscated from me. i just know what gets the results.

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On 2021-03-21 at 11:46 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Ah, that's clever.  I knew there was a reason DE made heat procs behave so strangely...for science!  😉

Just in case the Ignis is weird, I went ahead and did a similar test with the Flux Rifle, which is about as basic as a beam weapon can get.  One magazine per target, 4 targets each..

No multi: 13, 16, 16, 17 heat procs

Split Chamber: 26, 26, 29, 34

I don't have a catalyst or any forma in the weapon, which is why the amounts are so low.   Plus it's not pure heat.

In any case, a substantial difference.  Averages out to almost 90% better with Split, which would be the expected percentage if it's contributing status chance.

edit:  damn it, now I want to forma up this silly weapon.  😄

 

With a D MS riven, it is entirely steel path capable. It'll never replace the big three (Synapse, Amprex, Phage) but it still wrecks face handily.

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58 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

With a D MS riven, it is entirely steel path capable.

After putting some forma into it, it's fun, although I haven't tried getting a riven for it yet.

Quote

It'll never replace the big three (Synapse, Amprex, Phage) but it still wrecks face handily.

Where would you put the Phantasma?  That's the beam primary I've got the most experience with.

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The burst DPS is pretty solid, but your overall DPS just isn't going compare to the other three. Amprex sustained is of course super strong due to multitarget, and the other two just have batS#&amp;&#036; levels of damage in all the damage types that matter (aka viral+corrosive, then add heat or cold on top) and are 1.5 riven dispo leading to absolutely absurd TTk even on SP.

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