Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.

[Surbusken]

I mean, people can solo steel path inception with an umodded khora using 1 button. Wasn't the game built around frames marginalizing content, spy frames, damage etc.?

Anyone out here talking about there being any kind of balance to the game needs a reality check.

They obviously don't care about the 30 frames and 400 weapons collecting dust so what are you even talking about, needed to balance the game!!11

Yes as long as we nerf the nukor it's definitely all working perfectly. Mission accomplished. Nothing can be overpowered, right? Nothing must be easy. right?

 

If you have 89 things that aren't working or 88, that's just the difference between enraged melee players or not, the game 'balance' isn't going anyway and neither is the gameplay.

 

That aside let's not forget they let kuva nukor have powercreep for the duration of kuva lich relevancy. That's awfully convenient. You think maybe a corpus lich weapon is getting handed powercreep now?

 

I am totlaly down for game balance, I LOVE the idea. But, let's start with all the weapons and frames and mods and focus schools etc. in the negative.

You know, the ones the players are actually asking for, remember those?

Until then "for the players' sake" is off the table. This is for the developers' sake, as it always is.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

7 minutes ago, Unibot said:

No. The job is not done after using crude tools. Final adjustments can't be done with those and using delicate tools is the balancing, everything used before is pre-balance preparations.

You're not even arguing against what I'm saying at this point, mate.

Crude tools for crude jobs. I'm not talking about any delicate follow-up jobs here, just the simple fact that if the job is crude, your best option is the crude tool.

As I said,

17 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You're not actually opposed to big cuts. You're opposed to the lacking follow-up.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

But, let's start with all the weapons and frames and mods and focus schools etc. in the negative.

Weird how that hardly ever happens. Remember Helminth abilities? "We will buff weak abilites to make them more appealing." What happened? A bunch of abilities got nerfed by up to 50%, and there were 0 buffs that made any difference at all.

Remember when DE talked about their statistics of how much Helminth abilities are infused, and how much base abilities are removed? They exclusively cared about high usage, the answer to "Will you consider you data on abilities being removed near 100% of the time or infused near 0% of the time in future balancing?" was a flat "No.".

For whatever reason, DE does not give a single flick about useless, broken, bugged, subpar, nonfunctional stuff. But whenever 50% of the playerbase like a single item, that has to be changed asap. I'm sure DE has a reason for this very clear pattern. I'm not sure however, that I would like it if they told me - which may be why they never do.

[Unibot]

6 минут назад, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

You're not even arguing against what I'm saying at this point, mate.

Crude tools for crude jobs. I'm not talking about any delicate follow-up jobs here, just the simple fact that if the job is crude, your best option is the crude tool.

As I said,

If there are follow-ups. But there are none. DE considers the process finished. So they are not using delicate tools for follow-ups at all. So they only used crude tools for entire process and end result is not fine and not balanced. Balancing cannot be crude it should be refined.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 minute ago, Unibot said:

If there are follow-ups. But there are none. DE considers the process finished. So they are not using delicate tools for follow-ups at all. So they only used crude tools for entire process and end result is not fine and not balanced. Balancing cannot be crude it should be refined.

13 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

As I said,

32 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You're not actually opposed to big cuts. You're opposed to the lacking follow-up.

[Sl4ught3r777]

well If i like a weapon , and they make it less powerfull , who wouldn;t feel bad. I mean consider the current nerfs for melee specially blood rush 60-40 and that on kill with berserker specially i run Gram which is still slow even with a attack speed riven.   

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Traumtulpe:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

and talked past the truth again ........
PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE !!!

oh my god ...... how hard is it to understand. always the same with you ...

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Battle.Mage said:

PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE !!!

People are begging DE to change all the bugged, broken, and useless things for years. Clearly change is not the issue, try again.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Traumtulpe:

People are begging DE to change all the bugged, broken, and useless things for years. Clearly change is not the issue, try again.

just not ...
there is me. and there is you. let's stay with the facts!
and there are 5-10 trolls or depressed failures who write mindlessness and provoke everyone.

at some point i read an article about "nerf kuva nukor". author used very primitive language like a small child ......

therefore it is unclear to me what you mean by "people". there are concrete examples. and people with intellect do not write an emotional mindlessness.

[SpentCasings]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

The bs reasons given.

 

"Hey you are using this thing a lot, its popular. NERF"

 

Is pretty much thier balance department. When you nerf popular things, people get pissed. /thread.

[KlaussKlauss]

On 2021-06-22 at 1:47 PM, SneakyErvin said:

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature. In WF it just so happens that the players dont understand the nerfs full on in comparison to the magnitude of power and lack of "challenge" in the game already. People see big number nerfs that in the end change very little since we are so far above the content in power that we dont need it.

Most other games rely on a linear level system where a 10% nerf may have far more impact to TTK than a 80% damage nerf here, since in that level based game the content is tuned around a certain power level, where every damage number counts. Here an 80% nerf can make you go from 1HK with massive overkill damage to a simple 1HK, which means that complaining about the nerf is pointless, since the end result is still the same since you cannot ½HK thing in the game.

Catchmoon is a fine example of such massive nerfs that still left the gun in a very strong position.

I see this post getting quoted a lot and upvoted for the simple fact that it got several things right. 

Are gamers entitled and immature? It depends, is your question related to the group of individuals across contexts or within context?

What does it matter how I am as a person outside Warframe or outside the internet? It doesn't. These arguments are just silly because you are missing the point.

We play games because it is a socially accepted way to act out our immaturity.  

In the real world I will strive for harmony and will accept countless compromises. - In a video game I will not, especially when said compromises are shoved down my throat with no actual reason. 

We already know the nerfs serve not real purpose what so ever aside from pushing out new meta for people to grind. You say that we do not need the level of power we have in game. Fair enough, I propose that DE pump only new weapons that are slightly weaker than the ones we have now for 1 year (the year of no power creep and no bla-bla not as we intended nerfs).

Bottom line: People play Warframe to feel powerful and special. Hearing the message loud and clear "back to the grind cause your builds are not good enough now haha" doesn't make you feel that your progression counts, that your efforts are at all valid.

 

 

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

there is me. and there is you. let's stay with the facts!

Fine then, let me tell you about me:

The Catchmoon was my most used secondary, I had a nice Riven to use, and some I was looking to sell. I hardly even used any primary or melee. But when it got nerfed I didn't complain, I even defended the change on the forum, because the gun was simply too good to the point that I didn't feel like using anything else.

So clearly I am not afraight of change, yet there are a number of nerfs that I do not agree with one bit. So try again.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Traumtulpe:

Fine then, let me tell you about me:

The Catchmoon was my most used secondary, I had a nice Riven to use, and some I was looking to sell. I hardly even used any primary or melee. But when it got nerfed I didn't complain, I even defended the change on the forum, because the gun was simply too good to the point that I didn't feel like using anything else.

So clearly I am not afraight of change, yet there are a number of nerfs that I do not agree with one bit. So try again.

just not .... v2
I do. and try nothing.
you apparently took it personally. and that's not how it was meant at all. I don't want to provoke or insult you. what for ???!

if you think the weapon is too strong. ok ... everyone has their opinion. is not bad.
only in the end, it remains just an opinion. and it has nothing to do with reality. and even if a top weapon turns out to be lousy, then a worse weapon is the best choice.

-> sense of the thing ??? I do not find any!

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature. 

The fact that you started off your response with this shows that you literally didn’t read the OP.

[Traumtulpe]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature. In WF it just so happens that the players dont understand the nerfs full on in comparison to the magnitude of power and lack of "challenge" in the game already. People see big number nerfs that in the end change very little since we are so far above the content in power that we dont need it.

Most other games rely on a linear level system where a 10% nerf may have far more impact to TTK than a 80% damage nerf here, since in that level based game the content is tuned around a certain power level, where every damage number counts. Here an 80% nerf can make you go from 1HK with massive overkill damage to a simple 1HK, which means that complaining about the nerf is pointless, since the end result is still the same since you cannot ½HK thing in the game.

Looking at you post, I feel like summarizing it as such: "Warframe players are spoiled children, too dumb to have a valid opinion, and there exists no semblance of balance in any aspect of the game, so no changes can ever make a meaningful difference."

Correct me if there is a misunderstanding, but I cannot say that I appreciate such a defeatist attitude, belittling both players and developers alike, while saying nothing constructive or useful at the same time. The fact that quite a number of people seem to agree disappoints me immensely.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

back when I played Destiny in 2013 (the good old days of Dinklebot, Gjallarhorn being stupidly OP and praying to every god in the cosmos that Atheon would JUST. DIE. already so I can get the Vex Mythoclast in this Vault of Glass run that's taken several hours!), I prowled the bungie forums for a while, and the response to things like SUROS Regime's first nerf was nothing short of salt-tacular. some individuals there were just as unstable as some of the people here, but just like here, it was a vocal minority.

I believe the difference between those who accept nerfs and those who do not comes simply from foresight, or in many cases a lack of it: when a weapon becomes Meta, and evryone starts using it, and the Devs take notice, it should not take more than a moment to connect the dots and understand what comes next: the devs will respond by taking away some of that power in an effort to regain balance in the game. I knew from the moment I killed about 7 armored enemies on Steel Path at once with my Kuva Nukor (that wasn't even fully levelled, let alone modded properly) that it was only a matter of time before it would get seen to. I'm surprised it's taken this long honestly, Catchmoon got shut down pretty quick in comparison, and one could argue it  requires more time investment to get all the necessary blueprints and materials to build a Kitgun than it does to take down a Lich. 

those who take umbrage are usually the ones that don't see the cycle, other times it's people who do see it, but still allow themselves to get angered by it. the way DE goes about this game, nerfs and buffs will always be constant and sooner or later, the thing you love most WILL be hit. I too thought some things would always be off the table... then Primed Chamber came back, and I knew from then on the devs gave no Fs about your time investment. if they can  straight up bring back a mod not available for ~7 years, your meta guns aren't gonna last much more than a year at best. (again, Kuva Nukor nerf took longer than usual, and arguably I'd say it's nerfed twice for those who just used it for CO priming).

my advice?: chill out and try not to worry about it. I've put plenty Forma into weapons I like and seen them nerfed, it sucks but sometimes it's necessary. I move on in the end, and you can too. 

 

 

[Dairaion]

8 hours ago, Zimzala said:

If you think a game company is robbing you of your life because of changing numbers in a game, the game is not the problem.

If you are no longer being entertained, great, move on to something else, that's healthy and normal.

To think the game companies are robbing you of your life?

That's literally delusional, good luck.

how is it delusional when the entire goal of getting stronger in a game you like is to save time accomplishing goals in game so you have time to do things in real life?

warframe itself doesn't have the kind of in depth content to justify wanting to play the game for the game's sake alone.

[Traumtulpe]

10 hours ago, sitfesz said:

My opinion about the thought process of players when experiencing nerfs is "Why even try to invest in something else? That will get nerfed too. This is just a loophole to farm again to lose again. Why am I even here?".

While I like your entire response, this part in particular resonates with me. There are a couple weapons I Forma'd halfway, that I have Rivens for, but I am hesitant to invest more into them or roll the Rivens. I am so shy of having the time I used to farm my ressources wasted, that I just don't use them. Currently sitting on ~1000 Steel Essence, ~800 Vitus, and some amount of Nightwave Cred.

If you'd ask me, what was the cause, I'd say the shotgun nerf. Some 100+ roll Rivens turned use- and worthless overnight.

[(NSW)Greybones]

32 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

If you'd ask me, what was the cause, I'd say the shotgun nerf. Some 100+ roll Rivens turned use- and worthless overnight.

What were you using them for?

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

Most people who complain are not because of the nerf but the lies
That they will not nerf melee but will adjust attackspeed because of server intern problems, which should be a slight nerf.
Okay but whatever

Next the promised to buff guns to be on par with melee, NO they did not they only add more hassle (grind, running around keeping buffs up)
Just keep the damn promise and buff the guns for real
Okay but whatever

Now the best, after a weekend full of comments and suggestion
They added the worst possible and added another (arbitration) grind lmao
Shows how they don't listen at all

TLDR people are complaining about DE behaviour/managment


Edit for instance a real buff (even an easy one) give us primed blunderbuss

🤔 Is there additionally a consideration of “People think Warframe is their game”? Like, people think that they helped make it what it was and should be listened to?

…Is this why people hang around forums even after they’ve moved on? To watch over their baby and make sure it goes in the right direction?

Hmmm. Did the Devs give us an inch (building on player feedback) and we took a mile?

[Dairaion]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

While I like your entire response, this part in particular resonates with me. There are a couple weapons I Forma'd halfway, that I have Rivens for, but I am hesitant to invest more into them or roll the Rivens. I am so shy of having the time I used to farm my ressources wasted, that I just don't use them. Currently sitting on ~1000 Steel Essence, ~800 Vitus, and some amount of Nightwave Cred.

If you'd ask me, what was the cause, I'd say the shotgun nerf. Some 100+ roll Rivens turned use- and worthless overnight.

At this point why does warframe even have room for improvement. warframe for me is dancing close to being the game i play for 3 hours every 6 months and dont spend money on.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What were you using them for?

The Rivens? To reach 100% status chance, obviously.

[sitfesz]

On 2021-06-23 at 12:11 AM, Traumtulpe said:

While I like your entire response, this part in particular resonates with me. There are a couple weapons I Forma'd halfway, that I have Rivens for, but I am hesitant to invest more into them or roll the Rivens. I am so shy of having the time I used to farm my ressources wasted, that I just don't use them. Currently sitting on ~1000 Steel Essence, ~800 Vitus, and some amount of Nightwave Cred.

If you'd ask me, what was the cause, I'd say the shotgun nerf. Some 100+ roll Rivens turned use- and worthless overnight.

I farmed tons of kuva, because I liked the concept of kuva flood and kuva survival. I even played a lot of kuva survival fissure, because that was the topdog. Usually I just leveled frames and weapons there with extra kuva, but kuva flood was way before steel path. I'm now sitting on 3,5 millions of kuva and I don't spend it because of DE's riven mod/weapon nerf policy. I gambled a lot and probably I farmed net 5 millions of kuva, but I just can't care anymore as new weapons are 0.5 disposition, new primed weapons are also 0.5 dispisition and there is literally no worth for my rivens. I sit at 180 capacity and about 30 rivens of mine are veiled, because there is no single reason to unveil them. Also no reason to use any of my kuva. I gambled a lot on kuva as I had tons of resources to do, but I realized that it's just useless. Trading riven mods are a nightmare compared to prime parts on any platform, the mod and the weapon is only at DE's mercy, so I simply just stopped caring about it, and about DE.

What I wrote in my previous post is also my self experience. I realized it's just a game, and as I literally didn't spend any money on this game, I don't feel ripped off, but I won't ever say DE is the merrymaker, because they just do it for money, and my joy is only a coincidence. I have many many things I don't agree with the developers and I dont even like them. I like the base game, because it was okay to my collector self and spent a lot of time grinding and suffering even in parts of the game I don't like just out of spite. The worst is when you start to see the patterns how they want to slow you down with every bit it takes to make you buy platinum, buy boosters, trade platinum and they literally have one job: To make this game as insufferable as they can but still addictive, so you want to skip content with platinum.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

The Rivens? To reach 100% status chance, obviously.

Er. You’re referring to that weird “99% means 35% per pellet, but 100% means 100% per pellet” behaviour that got fixed?

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Er. You’re referring to that weird “99% means 35% per pellet, but 100% means 100% per pellet” behaviour that got fixed?

Exactly. Though please don't use misleading language, it's not like that was a bug, but simply how shotguns had always worked. DE likes to do that; "Oh, the way we designed the game and were happy for it to be the last 5 years? The thing everybody knew about? Yeah, we don't like it anymore, now it's something we had never intended, we were just... busy the last 5 years. Yeah, busy..."

And what this change did in practice, is cut the status chance of all good shotguns by 2/3, a massive nerf that immediately dumpstered all affected weapons, and made all affected Rivens worth- and useless.