Bane mods , are there any plans to make them universal?

[Walkampf]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Parcialsobriedad:

Viral slash is almost universal damage at this point at least for normal content , and please stop putting words on my mouth.

And again,

since you think viral slash is madatory and other Builds are not worth considering anyway,

Why stop at bane mods? Just roll all damage types into one single element.

Just answer me this, why bane mods are a different case than other elemental typeadvantages based on factions?

[Parcialsobriedad]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

And again,

since you think viral slash is madatory and other Builds are not worth considering anyway,

Why stop at bane mods? Just roll all damage types into one single element.

Just answer me this, why bane mods are a different case than other elemental typeadvantages based on factions?

I have said this at least twice , elemental damage and serration is a flat damage increase with diminishing returns .

[Parcialsobriedad]

Might as well bash my head against the nearest wall and even still the headache will be lesser. It will do me more good in the long run , i am a warframe player after all.

[Walkampf]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Parcialsobriedad:

I have said this at least twice , elemental damage and serration is a flat damage increase with diminishing returns .

So your only point is, that you want the best possible damage output.

Again, this whould be solved, if we whould roll every damage type, each mod, each weapon type into one single weapon.

If dps is fixed at 1, everybody has always the best possible value.

 

Seriously, you are arguing design decisions with dps-scaling. You are trying to argue apples with bananas.

[Parcialsobriedad]

7 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

So your only point is, that you want the best possible damage output.

Again, this whould be solved, if we whould roll every damage type, each mod, each weapon type into one single weapon.

If dps is fixed at 1, everybody has always the best possible value.

 

Seriously, you are arguing design decisions with dps-scaling. You are trying to argue apples with bananas.

Fun fact you can get this exact damage and by the looks of it you dont like it right now, but we need to switch one mod , this is not a balancing factor in any way shape or form is just being slightly inconvenient. I can and will min max the S#&$ out of my weapons , if i renember to switch out faction mods that is. 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I think you've forgotten how math works.

100 * serration (165%) * bane (30%)
100 * 2.65 * 1.3 = 344.5

Add in bane before serration?
100 * 1.3 * 2.65 = 344.5

The other mods that add to damage ALSO  have their own multipliers. It doesn't matter what order things get multiplied.

Maybe I should have explained it further. Bane increases all total damage of a weapon. It doesnt work like serration. Yes you can add it where you like in your equation for the direct damage, that however doesnt show what Bane does to damaging status effects. Where it first works like "serration" then it also multiplies the produced status ontop of that.

So a 30% bane mod increases direct damage which feeds the slash proc for instance, it then again increases the damage of the produced slash proc aswell.

So say you have a base damage mod and a bane mod with equal damage %, which results in a 100 per tick slash proc, well it would end there for the base damage mod, but with the bane mod you'd have 100 x X per tick.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Ok so, between how easy it is to just click and drag the mod, how you have 3 different weapon configurations, you have many Loadouts you could use, switching between mods needs a QoL change?

Ta-da! You got it, quality... of... life.

[Andele3025]

TLDR: Op wants "that one build" to exist again instead of having to actually think about if he wants higher floor but lower potential damage or higher max potential but actually but a bit of pre mission build effort.

 

[Parcialsobriedad]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe I should have explained it further. Bane increases all total damage of a weapon. It doesnt work like serration. Yes you can add it where you like in your equation for the direct damage, that however doesnt show what Bane does to damaging status effects. Where it first works like "serration" then it also multiplies the produced status ontop of that.

So a 30% bane mod increases direct damage which feeds the slash proc for instance, it then again increases the damage of the produced slash proc aswell.

So say you have a base damage mod and a bane mod with equal damage %, which results in a 100 per tick slash proc, well it would end there for the base damage mod, but with the bane mod you'd have 100 x X per tick.

Yes , i have been telling all over the thread how it works , multiplicative damage but some just says , to "just use serration duh" , flat damage added after the original 100% of damage and then when all elementals and damage is calculated if you have a bane it multiplies all of the above . But this thread isnt about this topic but it was somewhat derailed.

[Parcialsobriedad]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

TLDR: Op wants "that one build" to exist again instead of having to actually think about if he wants higher floor but lower potential damage or higher max potential but actually but a bit of pre mission build effort.

 

Yes almost my intention, i dont want to go into a SP survival and realize that i have the wrong bane for example. Im not asking for much am i.

[Andele3025]

11 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Yes almost my intention, i dont want to go into a SP survival and realize that i have the wrong bane for example. Im not asking for much am i.

You very much are. You are asking for either a new mod with no trigger conditional that makes 4 other mods completely obsolete or to give 4 mods a flat 165% damage buff.
TBF galvanized almost do that exact thing but that was intentional in already commonly used damage multiplier slots, not faction damage which in turn would push rhino/helminth roar severely down the meta rankings.

[Parcialsobriedad]

7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You very much are. You are asking for either a new mod with no trigger conditional that makes 4 other mods completely obsolete or to give 4 mods a flat 165% damage buff.
TBF galvanized almost do that exact thing but that was intentional in already commonly used damage multiplier slots, not faction damage which in turn would push rhino/helminth roar severely down the meta rankings.

Serration is not quite obsolete but rather optional with the new arcanes , same as banes , they are not mandatory and this change would not make them obsolete nor mandatory eitherway because we already have them in game is just , inconvenient. Lemme refphrase it , + xx% Multiplicative damage , how about now.

[DarkSkysz]

The real thing is... you are just being lazy. 10 seconds to change a mod is not a issue at all.

[DarknessNightshade]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ta-da! You got it, quality... of... life.

I'm not sure what the justification for it is other than just avoiding having to spend a couple seconds switching over your loadouts.

And as others (including myself) have pointed out, the bonus damage you get from them is entirely an optional thing you can do to up your damage numbers, with no actual posted justification for affecting the balance of damage mods.

It's not so much "Quality of Life", rather, I think you just don't want to utilise the many other "Quality of Life" features the devs have already handed to you and instead want an unreasonable change to an otherwise stable system.

Been over this point before also, but bane mods aren't effective in any capacity until you start getting to the later weapons in the game, by that point you're near enough ready to hit steel path, which means you're doing missions per planet, per faction, making it more easier to just leave your config as is for the first few planets (where it's mostly grineer and your slash/viral build will probably be fine) then when you encounter the corpus, you need to have an entirely different setup regardless (Toxin/Magnetic), so I'm not sure what time it saves when you have to switch your config/loadout anyway to not have your weapon hit like a wet noodle to their shields.

There's a lot more justification to just not add a feature like that than there is to add it, and requires a lot more in-depth thought and tweaks made than time saved (keeping in mind DE is a company that has to spend time actually testing features and tweaking balance)

Personally, I think I've put more than enough effort in to make it obvious that this is the case.

Plus, OP seems to have decided to selectively ignore my feedback, so there's less incentive to actually contribute more to the conversation.

As such, until someone actually provides a well-thought out response as to why the change is justified (in response to all the points outlined above), I think I'm going to go do something actually productive, way too many hours spent having to actually do math for every early-game weapon than it's worth for a conversation on my part.

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Serration is not quite obsolete but rather optional with the new arcanes , same as banes , they are not mandatory and this change would not make them obsolete nor mandatory eitherway because we already have them in game is just , inconvenient. Lemme refphrase it , + xx% Multiplicative damage , how about now.

Let me rephrase it again: Giving the bane mods a effective +165% bonus wouldnt just be quality of life/removal of inconvenience, its a raw power creep buff.
In WOTC player type splits, the option for a universal decent setup vs swapping in (be it cards in a deck or mods on a weapon) is what splits a (relatively) serious Johnny vs a Spike.

Also, alternatively, just run Roar.

[Parcialsobriedad]

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Let me rephrase it again: Giving the bane mods a effective +165% bonus wouldnt just be quality of life/removal of inconvenience, its a raw power creep buff.
In WOTC player type splits, the option for a universal decent setup vs swapping in (be it cards in a deck or mods on a weapon) is what splits a (relatively) serious Johnny vs a Spike.

Also, alternatively, just run Roar.

Oh , so you are saying that i should use..

An universal bane mod...

Huh .

 

[Parcialsobriedad]

11 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

I'm not sure what the justification for it is other than just avoiding having to spend a couple seconds switching over your loadouts.

And as others (including myself) have pointed out, the bonus damage you get from them is entirely an optional thing you can do to up your damage numbers, with no actual posted justification for affecting the balance of damage mods.

It's not so much "Quality of Life", rather, I think you just don't want to utilise the many other "Quality of Life" features the devs have already handed to you and instead want an unreasonable change to an otherwise stable system.

Been over this point before also, but bane mods aren't effective in any capacity until you start getting to the later weapons in the game, by that point you're near enough ready to hit steel path, which means you're doing missions per planet, per faction, making it more easier to just leave your config as is for the first few planets (where it's mostly grineer and your slash/viral build will probably be fine) then when you encounter the corpus, you need to have an entirely different setup regardless (Toxin/Magnetic), so I'm not sure what time it saves when you have to switch your config/loadout anyway to not have your weapon hit like a wet noodle to their shields.

There's a lot more justification to just not add a feature like that than there is to add it, and requires a lot more in-depth thought and tweaks made than time saved (keeping in mind DE is a company that has to spend time actually testing features and tweaking balance)

Personally, I think I've put more than enough effort in to make it obvious that this is the case.

Plus, OP seems to have decided to selectively ignore my feedback, so there's less incentive to actually contribute more to the conversation.

As such, until someone actually provides a well-thought out response as to why the change is justified (in response to all the points outlined above), I think I'm going to go do something actually productive, way too many hours spent having to actually do math for every early-game weapon than it's worth for a conversation on my part.

When you keep saying to just use serration , of course im not taking you into account , serration and bane are two different damage increases but you dont quite get it. Also lets be real , if you are running bramma , you are not likely to swap elementals lol

[DarknessNightshade]

6 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

When you keep saying to just use serration , of course im not taking you into account

I think you may have me confused with someone else, ignoring people because they're asking you for a reason why the change should be implemented is a way to not get your change inplemented.

6 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

serration and bane are two different damage increases but you dont quite get it.

My first post outlined this very thing.

6 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Also lets be real , if you are running bramma , you are not likely to swap elementals lol

A slash/viral build with a Bramma on steel path will not be all that effective on steel path vs Corpus, as I've said before, Mag/Toxin is the way to go there if you actually cared about min-maxing your damage that much.

[Parcialsobriedad]

4 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

I think you may have me confused with someone else, ignoring people because they're asking you for a reason why the change should be implemented is a way to not get your change inplemented.

 

Oh sorry about that , mb there.

 

And regarding those last post i was choosing to mostly ignore you because i dont care about numbers , i just want global multiplicative damage that will show up in the ui at least.

[Parcialsobriedad]

Tldr :

We have bane mods, those are not broken in any shape or form other than the only balancing factor they have is you have to swap between factions, making then an universal multiplicative increase wont powercreep any mods , at least not anymore than gun arcanes lol. 

inconvenient is not a balancing factor , is just inconvenient

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

I'm not sure what the justification for it is other than just avoiding having to spend a couple seconds switching over your loadouts.

And as others (including myself) have pointed out, the bonus damage you get from them is entirely an optional thing you can do to up your damage numbers, with no actual posted justification for affecting the balance of damage mods.

It's not so much "Quality of Life", rather, I think you just don't want to utilise the many other "Quality of Life" features the devs have already handed to you and instead want an unreasonable change to an otherwise stable system.

Been over this point before also, but bane mods aren't effective in any capacity until you start getting to the later weapons in the game, by that point you're near enough ready to hit steel path, which means you're doing missions per planet, per faction, making it more easier to just leave your config as is for the first few planets (where it's mostly grineer and your slash/viral build will probably be fine) then when you encounter the corpus, you need to have an entirely different setup regardless (Toxin/Magnetic), so I'm not sure what time it saves when you have to switch your config/loadout anyway to not have your weapon hit like a wet noodle to their shields.

There's a lot more justification to just not add a feature like that than there is to add it, and requires a lot more in-depth thought and tweaks made than time saved (keeping in mind DE is a company that has to spend time actually testing features and tweaking balance)

Personally, I think I've put more than enough effort in to make it obvious that this is the case.

Plus, OP seems to have decided to selectively ignore my feedback, so there's less incentive to actually contribute more to the conversation.

As such, until someone actually provides a well-thought out response as to why the change is justified (in response to all the points outlined above), I think I'm going to go do something actually productive, way too many hours spent having to actually do math for every early-game weapon than it's worth for a conversation on my part.

That is the only justification needed for a QoL addition. It makes the interaction smoother, simple as that. There is no reason to have it as seperate mods, since the the power available is the same. Making a single Bane mod would just bring better ease of use, especially now with Railjack where you cannot just go into your loadout and switch things between missions without leaving the game mode completely, facing several transition screens in the process.

And I dont really care at which point they become effective, that has jack squat to do with their availability or ease of use. And no, you dont need some specific corpus setup to be effective against them. 

There is also no balance to consider making a change like this, since the damage provided by the mod will be exactly the same. So it is just a duplicate mod that contains all the coded variables instead of just one.

I would ignore your feedback too if I was the OP, since it has nothing to do with what he asks for. You base it on the damage it provides and somehow makes up a scenario where a shift would somehow equal the mod performing better more or less. It still gives the same damage bonus, no matter if I have to go into loadout pre mission or not. So your feedback has nothing to do with what the OP asks for, which is simply to remove a tedious part of the game. If it would result in a in-mission power increase I'd agree, like say we face corpus and grineer at the same time on a regular basis. Since then, merging the mods, would mean removing that "risk" vs reward. But that isnt something that ever really happens.

[Yamazuki]

On 2021-08-11 at 2:26 AM, Quimoth said:

It makes little sense to change a couple dozen of mods for the sake of QoL when it completely destroys another part of the game. Loadouts are clunky yes, but why solve it by making them completely obsolete?

Even without the existence of bane mods, loadout slots already have a purpose. If bane mods are the only thing you personally ever swap, that is a matter of you placing no value in loadout slots.

Weapons I use all have 3+ loadouts that don't involve being used to swap bane mods.

Most people ignore bane mods in the first place, so it would be a severe level of exaggeration to suggest it would destroy loadout slots in the first place.

[Aldain]

Hot take, the multiplicative nature of bane mods are one of the most commonly overlooked contributors to DE constantly needing to pump up armor and make things like Adaptive DR and are more of a problem causer than a problem solver.

[Quimoth]

11 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Even without the existence of bane mods, loadout slots already have a purpose. If bane mods are the only thing you personally ever swap, that is a matter of you placing no value in loadout slots.

Weapons I use all have 3+ loadouts that don't involve being used to swap bane mods.

Most people ignore bane mods in the first place, so it would be a severe level of exaggeration to suggest it would destroy loadout slots in the first place.

I don't need to switch elements so most weapons indeed do not use more than a single loadout. The way status procs work right now make dont make it worth putting effort into loadouts for much more than bane mods or special weapon mods.

Aside from slash, corrosive, viral, radiation and heat there aren't really any elements worth your time. Magnetic procs get countered by shield drones which happen to be of the same faction that has shields (duhhh).

The only few weapons that I do use loadouts on are those that can be modded for more than one purpose (status vs crit) which is a pool of maybe 8 weapons. Most of which barely anyone uses because they aren't exceptionally good at either.

Then again, my point was that loadout slots as is are just clunky and poorly implemented. To me they provide no benefit at all. I often find myself just switch the gear manually.

Oh and not to mention that i just do not like the idea of universal bane mods because if anything, they need a nerf not a buff.

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Oh , so you are saying that i should use..

An universal bane mod...

Huh .

Yes a universal faction damage bonus ability, in its appropriate helminth slot. Not ask for power creep on mods.