The "Pick a Invigoration" sucks pretty hard, can we get more options?

[quietcanary]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

What? Excuse me mate, but when you reach 10 invigorations, you can use any of the 3 available atm on any frame you want. There's no extra hidden roll you don't get to see before commiting. If you dont like any of the 3 you see on the frame you want to buff, wait till they change. You lose nothing. 

Are you telling me the pick a invigoration is a copy of the slot you put it on? I checked that the first week it came out but I might have been wrong about that some how. I'll go see if i can find some footage showing whether this is true and come back. When I did it, i used the invigoration in the slot it was in first so I'm wondering if maybe thats why it became different if I'm not just imagining it.

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

It ends there is what happens. I am not the community and combining a strawman and slippery slope argument doesn't really matter to this discussion. The answer to the question if that WAS what I wanted would be that it would be up to DE (a company full of grown ass adults) to put their foot down. This systems design goals are simple and clear anyway. This is a resources sink in return for temporary power attached to gear that is random for helping people experiment with new things. You know what it currently does? Let you wait weeks for something you already like because the cost is too steep and the rng too random for anybody to actually use it to try new things reliably which forces people away and then won't function as a resource sink whatsoever. I did the invest in every random buff thing since it started just to try it out and I wont be touching the S#&$ty ones any longer. In the end it will be all the same broken power when it does show up but it will be on my terms because DE failed to make it rewarding enough to follow theirs.

See, here's your issue... You're posing this as if DE demands the player use EVERY Invigoration all of the time, when in fact this has NEVER been the case!

You're complaining about "strawmanning", but you're doing exactly that. 

If you see a buff you don't like, DONT USE IT.  It's VERY simple.  It costs you NOTHING not to use it.

And your opinion regarding the value of these buffs is completely subjective...and does not reflect every player's experience.  

I, for one, have had a GREAT time... with a Hildryn who had +1000 Armor and Status Immunity...  a Vauban with DOUBLED RANGE and bonus efficiency? (It was GLORIOUS) ...  I've had Banshee with +1000 HP and DOUBLE Duration! (God mode) 

Those were completely random, but I found use in them.  Others, not so much.  And that's FINE... because it's all R A N D O M and V O L U N T A R Y.

[quietcanary]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...You're SEVERELY underselling 200% Primary damage on ANY frame.

200% anything to almost any top of the line weapon is obnoxious power creep as it is, we don't need even more nonsense from invigorations making it worse.

Chroma gives 1000% primary weapon damage. He is considered a bad frame. Your perspective as far as what constitutes outrageous power at end game is just not accurate.

[-Krism-]

7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is a very good point.

I suppose I should have clarified a bit more about what I meant. When I am calling the system overpowered I mean it is one that only offers improvements. There is no downside to using the system outside of the resource cost. If you roll a crummy set of invigorations then that's a bummer but you're in no worse position. If you get lucky and roll 200% power strength on a number of frames you've effectively opened up many build options that delete all challenge in the game. 

If we were to follow the TC's logic and get rerolls then this system would be even more ridiculous. 

Yeah, I agree with that tho

The only real thing I would want would be to have stuff like +jumps, or worse, energy regen on Lavos, to be touched up

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

Chroma gives 1000% primary weapon damage. He is considered a bad frame. Your perspective as far as what constitutes outrageous power at end game is just not accurate.

By WHOM?  Chroma is a powerhouse! No, you can't self-damage anymore, but that doesn't mean his buffs don't still work!  In fact, his rework made him even BETTER in many ways, as now you're not bound to one energy "type" based on your fashion in a mission.

Stop letting Youtubers decide what constitutes "good/bad" for you.  Every frame in the game is viable, and ANY frame can be made "good" with proper modding and awareness of game mechanics.

Hell, here's one:  Yareli is actually a DECENT frame, too!  I know the talking heads on YT won't agree, but my experiences in Steel Path with her say otherwise.

[Leqesai]

Just now, Ailia_Grimm said:

Yeah, I agree with that tho

The only real thing I would want would be to have stuff like +jumps, or worse, energy regen on Lavos, to be touched up

See, THIS is a reasonable suggestion. TC take notice.

Rolling bonuses that are unable to be used by a particular frame could be adjusted but even then I'd consider this a pretty mild QOL change.

The +jumps though... I mean... this should remain because it is kind of a "lel better luck next time" roll that makes sense given the system it is in.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

By WHOM?  Chroma is a powerhouse! No, you can't self-damage anymore, but that doesn't mean his buffs don't still work!  In fact, his rework made him even BETTER in many ways, as now you're not bound to one energy "type" based on your fashion in a mission.

Stop letting Youtubers decide what constitutes "good/bad" for you.  Every frame in the game is viable, and ANY frame can be made "good" with proper modding and awareness of game mechanics.

Hell, here's one:  Yareli is actually a DECENT frame, too!  I know the talking heads on YT won't agree, but my experiences in Steel Path with her say otherwise.

Dear god I hope this is sarcasm... :P

[Aldain]

Just now, quietcanary said:

Chroma gives 1000% primary weapon damage. He is considered a bad frame. Your perspective as far as what constitutes outrageous power at end game is just not accurate.

...I don't even like Chroma and I know that max power from a Chroma is one of those things that unga-bunga AoE builds love.

Chroma's problems as a frame mainly stem from the fact that aside from being a damage battery he has no other identity, similar to how Nyx is a bad frame because Chaos is fairly outdated to harder and equally spammable AoE CC and she basically leans heavily on Psychic Bolts for endgame viability 9 times out of 10.

Unless your idea of "endgame" is 24 straight hours in a Survival mission, there is no situation where a decent endgame build with 200% to a stat slapped onto it isn't automatically hilariously better.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

Yeah, I agree with that tho

The only real thing I would want would be to have stuff like +jumps, or worse, energy regen on Lavos, to be touched up

Random is Random, though... and it's fair.

Also, afaik, efficiency would affect his Cooldowns, so... perhaps energy regen does the same?  If not, one must also consider:

1. It's a voluntary system, so if the buff doesn't make sense, just don't use it.

2. It's 2 stats buffed... so the energy regen might suck, but what's the other stat?  Duration? Range? Strength? Health?   Those are still useful, to be fair.

[(PSN)Jacobivan]

6 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

Are you telling me the pick a invigoration is a copy of the slot you put it on? I checked that the first week it came out but I might have been wrong about that some how. I'll go see if i can find some footage showing whether this is true and come back. When I did it, i used the invigoration in the slot it was in first so I'm wondering if maybe thats why it became different if I'm not just imagining it.

 

Yeah, you sit on the chair with the frame you want to use the buff, click override, pick invigoration you want. Voila! I used it to give Hydroid +ability range +reload speed to ma boy Lavos. He nuked whole planets with his 3, 4, Kuva Zarr combo:-D

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

Dear god I hope this is sarcasm... :P

It's not.  I'm not saying she's "OMG AMAZEBALLZ" levels of good.  She's just... fine. good. acceptable.

I've taken her into SP Mot several times, and never gone down.  Her CC is decent.

I'm not RECOMMENDING anyone do that, but fact of the matter is... if you only listen to Youtubers and such, you'd think she's complete S#&$e and couldn't last five minutes in anything beyond Hydron, which is just not true.

Players need to learn to experiment and think for themselves.  The Helminth Invigorations help them do that, too.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

12 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

Are you telling me the pick a invigoration is a copy of the slot you put it on? I checked that the first week it came out but I might have been wrong about that some how. I'll go see if i can find some footage showing whether this is true and come back. When I did it, i used the invigoration in the slot it was in first so I'm wondering if maybe thats why it became different if I'm not just imagining it.

 

 

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

Yeah, you sit on the chair with the frame you want to use the buff, click override, pick invigoration you want. Voila! I used it to give Hydroid +ability range +reload speed to ma boy Lavos. He nuked whole planets with his 3, 4, Kuva Zarr combo:-D

And this is why we shouldn't make posts that rush to conclusions, then aggressively shout down everyone who is trying to tell us that we're wrong/mistaken.. 
 

[quietcanary]

1 minute ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

See, here's your issue... You're posing this as if DE demands the player use EVERY Invigoration all of the time, when in fact this has NEVER been the case!

You're complaining about "strawmanning", but you're doing exactly that. 

If you see a buff you don't like, DONT USE IT.  It's VERY simple.  It costs you NOTHING not to use it.

And your opinion regarding the value of these buffs is completely subjective...and does not reflect every player's experience.  

I, for one, have had a GREAT time... with a Hildryn who had +1000 Armor and Status Immunity...  a Vauban with DOUBLED RANGE and bonus efficiency? (It was GLORIOUS) ...  I've had Banshee with +1000 HP and DOUBLE Duration! (God mode) 

Those were completely random, but I found use in them.  Others, not so much.  And that's FINE... because it's all R A N D O M and V O L U N T A R Y.

See the problem is I got none of the same buffs as you so you are suprised when my experience is different than yours. I'm also not "strawmanning" and you should not put that in quotes because I didnt say "strawmanning" (because thats not the correct term). I didn't rephrase your argument at all in fact let alone change it to my benefit so please don't just NO U at me and think I wont say anything. The rest of what you said is correct but i'm not actually complaining about the process I used to achieve getting to the 10 stacks. I'm complaining that once I got 10 stacks I got stiffed out of any worthwhile buffs on my chosen frame twice now. I've recieved a excessive amount of health, primary and secondary buffs and while i'm sure they are literally power creep I don't want them, they aren't fun and they don't change the warframe whatsoever. This is a new complaint mind you since I was willing to just accept them as the cost of doing business to get something cool but some dude is telling me 200 damage on my bramma and 5 extra jumps is me both being uncreative AND i'm also only making this post whining because i cant get enough power creep on the other hand. Half the posts already in here are people saying they gave up on the system. That should tell the people watching something they need to understand at least...

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

It's not.  I'm not saying she's "OMG AMAZEBALLZ" levels of good.  She's just... fine. good. acceptable.

I've taken her into SP Mot several times, and never gone down.  Her CC is decent.

I'm not RECOMMENDING anyone do that, but fact of the matter is... if you only listen to Youtubers and such, you'd think she's complete S#&$e and couldn't last five minutes in anything beyond Hydron, which is just not true.

Players need to learn to experiment and think for themselves.  The Helminth Invigorations help them do that, too.

Not to derail this topic but I don't think that's a real strong argument for her being acceptable.

I mean.... with the right subsume sure you could do Mot without issue, but this is true of all frames. I think it is a little off-mark to say she has decent CC but I believe this has been discussed at length in the many Yareli topics.

With enough survivability and powerful weapons Steel Path isn't terribly difficult. 

[quietcanary]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

Yeah, you sit on the chair with the frame you want to use the buff, click override, pick invigoration you want. Voila! I used it to give Hydroid +ability range +reload speed to ma boy Lavos. He nuked whole planets with his 3, 4, Kuva Zarr combo:-D

I'm going to be mad if you are right. Damn this game and its lack of basic information.

 

[MrWrightPlays]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

And this is why we shouldn't make posts that rush to conclusions, then aggressively shout down everyone who is trying to tell us that we're wrong/mistaken.. 
 

Alright, this is a little wrong since only one person I saw respond to this topic actually said the right thing while everyone else was arguing the efficacy of the system, not how it actually worked

[Aldain]

Just now, Leqesai said:

I think it is a little off-mark to say she has decent CC but I believe this has been discussed at length in the many Yareli topics.

Her biggest problems are that her 3 is undertuned, her 2 is buggy as hell and her 4 needs more range and maybe a tap/hold version, tap for a quick whirlpool for less energy and hold to gather them in and pop them after.

Her 1 is fairly decent imo, compared to a lot of 1s at least (Looking at you Nyx).

[quietcanary]

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...I don't even like Chroma and I know that max power from a Chroma is one of those things that unga-bunga AoE builds love.

*snip*

Was making a point that 200% primary damage doesn't mean jack diddly. Even if it did it wouldn't change how i'd feel about it. gotta keep on topic lol

[quietcanary]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

And this is why we shouldn't make posts that rush to conclusions, then aggressively shout down everyone who is trying to tell us that we're wrong/mistaken.. 
 

You seriously over estimate this forums stubbornness if you are suggesting I shouted anybody down. I'm definitely not even managing a light smothering of my opposition lol 

[quietcanary]

I think I missed replying to some people who quoted me. If you really want me to reply to something just lmk if not i'll brb

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, quietcanary said:

Was making a point that 200% primary damage doesn't mean jack diddly. Even if it did it wouldn't change how i'd feel about it. gotta keep on topic lol

I was more pointing out that calling him a bad frame was kind of a misnomer.

Really "bad" frames are a very short list imo, most of them fall into the "Really outdated and don't fit with current Warframe" issue than anything.

I mean even Nyx has a niche...an insanely small niche of "deletes armor and shields from anything not ability immune", but she's still good for that...then there's Hydroid, who I earnestly believe is the single worst frame in the game at the moment.

Regardless of my opinion on frames however, 200% Primary Weapon damage is still miles ahead of the alternative of "absolutely nothing" regardless of the frame you put it on, that was the original point and why I think Invigorations are already a bad thing for the game's future balance.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

The Invigoration system was already a mistake before they even added it: wildly overpowered buffs for our already powerful frames is one thing, but then to trap it behind RNG as well.. and some of the "buffs" are nearly useless: exactly where in the game do you need 5 jumps, which covers less distance than bullet jumping and Void dashing?

even if they added an option to reroll a limited number of items, you still aren't guaranteed the buff you want, so it's foolish to rely on the system like that. it's only good for adding a little more to the power fantasy, and nothing else.

[quietcanary]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Your request to generate three new invigorations when you hit the Override? Why do you need a second roll of the dice? It already randomised you three stats, and there's no guarantee that any of the new ones are going to satisfy you either. So all you're doing is being impatient, rather than asking for a better system.

Hate to be that guy but It was actually a misunderstanding, I was under the impression it regenerated automatically no matter what slot it was put on, since I specifically tested this the first week i got one. Turns out I either made a mistake or something was wrong when I did and I can confirm that when I slotted my most recent pick into a slot it cloned what was underneath it. Just to be clear I was basically suggesting something that it already does, not 3 new rolls.

[quietcanary]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

And this is why we shouldn't make posts that rush to conclusions, then aggressively shout down everyone who is trying to tell us that we're wrong/mistaken.. 
 

Also nobody but him realized I'd made a mistake let alone told me about it.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

54 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

Until then keep your nerf loving strawman arguments to yourself or go play gears of war if there is too much power creep here for you. I wont be told I'm trying to throw challenge out the window just because i don't think 5 extra jumps is worth weeks of waiting.

 

 

46 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

It ends there is what happens. I am not the community and combining a strawman and slippery slope argument doesn't really matter to this discussion. The answer to the question if that WAS what I wanted would be that it would be up to DE (a company full of grown ass adults) to put their foot down. 

...
 

23 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

 I'm also not "strawmanning" and you should not put that in quotes because I didnt say "strawmanning" (because thats not the correct term). .

You can literally argue the facts against yourself here, then.