Primed Sure Footed needs some changes

[Berzerkules]

On 2021-10-28 at 3:31 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Just revert back to Self-Damage

Chroma, Harrow..... I miss being able to self damage for ramping up my abilities

Combat discipline still worked last time I checked. 

[MJ12]

On 2021-11-01 at 7:30 AM, Leqesai said:

This.

Self damage shouldn't have been removed. It makes no sense that we get this ridiculous stagger system instead of actually blowing yourself up. The reason aoe weapons have become the meta is the stagger is completely negatable. You could mostly negate the self damage with cautious shot but the big damage weapons would still wipe your shields in one shot, making shield gating much less abusable by aoe spammers.

Aoe weapons simply have the highest dps potential and this was somewhat managed by the fact that these weapons could kill yourself. People were a little more careful with how they used explosives. Now people just spam explode constantly because even if you dont negate the stagger it barely affects gameplay.

No, this wasn't "somewhat managed" at any point in time.

AoE weapons didn't show up much before the self-damage changes because most AoE weapons were trash. Once a high-power AoE weapon was introduced in the Kuva Bramma, the result was that people started engaging in AoE spam with it because it was ludicrously overpowered, with the only difference being that people would occasionally fall down and have to be picked up, ruining the pace of the game. And you could negate the drawbacks of AoE spam by camping on a crate and firing down into chokepoints, which encouraged degenerate, passive gameplay.

And it's not like people didn't do "AoE spam" back then either - it was just that the "AoE spam" involved scaling AoE powers like Overload or Spore. You might notice that nobody talks about "Avalanche AoE spam" or "Miasma spam" anymore despite the fact that those never did self-damage and back then you could cut their costs to basically nothing while still having serviceable range, because AoE was never constrained by damage. The result is that if Warframe started introducing good AoE weapons like the Tenet Envoy would be that people would still "spam explode constantly," they would simply just fall down every once in a while and force their team to slow down to pick them up.

The shift towards AoE weapons has been precipitated by two main factors:

1. AoE weapons are now significantly better because you have standouts like the Bramma, Acceltra, and Tenet Envoy.

2. The high-end "meta" now focuses on Steel Path, where enemy spawn rates are extremely high and thus you have more clumped up enemies as well which makes AoE weapons better by default.

There is very little way you can actually "fix" this with a universal change without making AoE weapons effectively useless. If AoE weapons are "balanced" in high-spawn high-density situations so they're no better than other weapon archetypes, they will be very weak in situations where you don't have that level of enemy density (e.g. Railjack missions). And in Steel Path/etc. missions I see plenty of non-AoE weapons being deployed anyways already. This isn't a situation where people are only using AoE weapons on high-level content or where weak AoE weapons like the Penta and Ogris are outclassing strong non-AoE weapons.

Also, nerfing "AoE spam" or "shooting AoE weapons at your foot" is doubly irrelevant because if you want a point-blank centered area of effect that does high damage and doesn't deal self-damage, melee attacks exist. And even with the melee damage and survival nerfs, melee is a very strong option.

[DroopingPuppy]

Remember that we do use Lenz even on the era that suffer self damage=instant death. Although a part of the reason is Lenz is easier to avoid instant death, but the most important reason is its damage output. While most AOE weapons are not that better than non-AOE while too punitive to use(if you have a teammate move across before you while you shoots, you are DEAD), Lenz gives us a REAL AOE weapon that actually melts everything.

Self-damage is not fancy as you might think. It is an incarnation of irrational malice, nothing more. A single hit(and only a scratch!) and you are simply got killed, and it doesn't concern how cautious you are either - if it could then I didn't say it is too much.

Also as Lenz already shows, even if self-killing is returned it never stops the players to use Bramma and Proboscis Cernos, because those weapons are superior to the others. If you want to stop aiming at their own foot, then so be it, but it never, ever stops them to use AOE weapons and return to old and rusty non-AOE weapons. Just get to the reality, rather than live in the fancy idea that never makes sense.

[OmegaVoid]

On 2021-10-28 at 8:52 PM, Prexades said:

I would propose that Primed Sure Footed only affects stagger effects caused by enemies, while ignoring any self stagger.

I'd go further and say self-stagger should not be affected by any mechanic except Void Mode -- but explosives should not detonate on allies (players or NPCs).

Having another player or their Kubrow jump in front of you was the only "unfair" way to suffer for using a self-inflicted-hazard weapon. Remove that problem, and there's no reason to let players off the hook for careless usage.

On 2021-10-29 at 12:31 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Just revert back to Self-Damage

Agree. It was great fun! I still miss it. 😢

On 2021-10-29 at 12:31 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Chroma, Harrow..... I miss being able to self damage for ramping up my abilities

Disagree. IMO, "on damage" effects of any sort should always have disregarded self-inflicted damage, the same way Rage/Hunter Adrenaline had.

[(XBOX)ScooterLaroo]

Yeah that won't work.

Either people find a new meta or, the alternative:

People get upset that they aren't allowed to enjoy the game that they put time and effort in and leave or entirely throw away most explosive weapons going back to what we originally used before Self-Stagger was implemented.

Also, if the plan was to add back self-damage, then that will automatically throw every single explosive weapon back into the bins where they would belong. The only reason that self-damage would even be viable is if explosive weapons did damage on par with that of a very VERY high level Bombard, which most don't. 

Self-Stagger works a lot better. It isn't perfect but it's better. 

 

[Lutesque]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)ScooterLaroo said:

 

Either people find a new meta or, the alternative

 

My guess is that would be Hand Spring...

If you can avoid the Knockdown... Might aswel Speed it Up.

20 hours ago, (XBOX)ScooterLaroo said:

Also, if the plan was to add back self-damage, then that will automatically throw every single explosive weapon back into the bins where they would belong.

Would it ?

All the explosive weapons that were rubbish before Self Stagger are still Rubbish now....

Remember it's the new AoE weapons that are dominating the Meta.... Don't believe me ? grab the Lenz or Staticor and try it yourself.... 😝

 

[Kaichi16]

y'know, if other people using AoE weapons bothers you, just play solo or with your friends. i don't like corpus railjack missions so i just dont play it. 

it's not our fault DE failed to properly address the "self-damage" problem. we will play with the tools we have now. this is the current state of warframe.

i just think it's funny that DE made some explosive weapons knock US down but not enemies.

[(XBOX)ScooterLaroo]

Yes, it would.

A lot of them had the improvement that they wouldn't just one-hit kill you know. They may still be slightly worse in terms of stats, but at least people are more willing to use and build with them. Can't be said before self-stagger.

"

 "My guess is that would be Hand Spring...

If you can avoid the Knockdown... Might aswel Speed it Up.

Would it ?

All the explosive weapons that were rubbish before Self Stagger are still Rubbish now....

Remember it's the new AoE weapons that are dominating the Meta.... Don't believe me ? grab the Lenz or Staticor and try it yourself.... 😝"

This quote basically proves my point. Going back to the original self-damage idea will not improve anything. Once again proving my point. Though I can say that the Staticor and Lenz, while not as commonly used or liked by the community, still got some love from the removal of self-damage, as now people can experiment with them more and use mods that weren't as commonly used before the update, giving new life to older mods, such as Primed Sure Footed, which honestly had no purpose before the update, Sure Footed didn't either as you can typically roll through most knock downs and they are heavily telegraphed. 

There is no reason to bring back self-damage. It didn't work and it won't work. Adding it back will just revert all the progress made to make weapons more fleshed out. Newer weapons will be thrown behind again, they won't be as commonly used anymore and may be outright replaced by other weapons, or people will just leave.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Even with self damage and insane self stagger. We can still equip it, make a Wukong Clone then ignore every drawback the mechanics have. 

[OmegaVoid]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)ScooterLaroo said:

I can say that the Staticor and Lenz, while not as commonly used or liked by the community, still got some love from the removal of self-damage, as now people can experiment with them more

Staticor was a top-tier weapon! It was commonly seen in co-op (though not as ubiquitous as the Catchmoon which eclipsed it in the meta). It's still well above average, despite a year or two of powercreep.

And Staticor didn't have self-damage. There were in fact a number of threads on this forum from Staticor users complaining that the weapon had been ruined by addition of stagger. Similarly Zakti, Cyanex, Sonicor, Shedu, Opticor, and more...

In ye goode olde days everybody could -- within limits -- have their cake and eat it. Large-radius AoE like Ogris had self-damage, but were good only for Star Chart levels anyway, while many hard-hitting AoE weapons which could melt Sortie 3 enemies had no self-damage.

So if players wanted to blow away enemies by the dozen with godlike impunity, they could do so -- in any Warframe, without the exorbitant drain of PSF -- simply by picking a powerful safe AoE weapon and going ham. It was awesome (if you like that kind of thing).

Meanwhile, players who enjoyed the extra complexity and risk of using a weapon which could blow them away too if they weren't careful had that option. It was awesome (if you like that kind of thing).

Now we have neither option. Self-stagger is unsatisfactory for power-trippers and masochists alike.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

In the good old days, killing oneself with aoe weapons wasn't the fault of bad aiming, nor is it to be blamed on faulty geometry tileset. What mostly kill players was objects jumping in front of the explosive projectile without the player control. Like companion wanting to be a meat shield even in mid air. Team mates bullet jump pass through the warframe. Falling debirs. Griefers intentionally standing in front of weapons because it can kill the player.

[Joezone619]

I Completely agree. When they changed self damage to self stagger, AoE skyrocketed waaaay out of control, now 9/10 at least 1 person in your squad is spamming AoE.

[Alpheus]

3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

I Completely agree. When they changed self damage to self stagger, AoE skyrocketed waaaay out of control, now 9/10 at least 1 person in your squad is spamming AoE.

Yea, Quake Banshee, Miasma Saryn, WoF Ember, Avalanche Frost, Maim Equinox, Stomp Rhino, Vitrify Gara, Legerdemain Mirage, Hallowed Oberon, Mesa, and Discharge Volt didn't exist before they changed weapons to self-stagger.

It's not like every player and their uncle was using the Ignis Wraith/Arca Plasmor everywhere because they were AoE weapons with no self-damage. No sir, before the change, everyone was using their single-target Bratons and efficiency Nyxes.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Alpheus said:

Yea, Quake Banshee, Miasma Saryn, WoF Ember, Avalanche Frost, Maim Equinox, Stomp Rhino, Vitrify Gara, Legerdemain Mirage, Hallowed Oberon, Mesa, and Discharge Volt didn't exist before they changed weapons to self-stagger.

It's not like every player and their uncle was using the Ignis Wraith/Arca Plasmor everywhere because they were AoE weapons with no self-damage. No sir, before the change, everyone was using their single-target Bratons and efficiency Nyxes.

Seems like AoE was always the Meta 😁 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Self-stagger is a horrible mechanic and this suggestion isn't a fix of any kind, it just makes it a worse mechanic.  There is nothing fun about a huge swath of the weapons in the game causing you to stop playing so you can go through some tedious animation just because a teammate or allied AI walked in front of you, or stray multishot hit something directly in front of you.

[Sloan441]

On 2021-10-28 at 3:52 PM, Prexades said:

It will be an unpopular opinion, but AoE spam went really out of control when self damage was removed. Even the self stagger can be negated way too easily with Primed Sure Footed. I would propose that Primed Sure Footed only affects stagger effects caused by enemies, while ignoring any self stagger.

Not unpopular. I think many see the issue with AoE, but PSF is only a symptom. 

The real issue is AoE damage is way out of control--just like it was in PSO back in the day. Here we did see it coming, but DE apparently wasn't interested in dealing with it. I can think of a few reasons why, but it is a problem. 

Self-damage should never have been removed. What should have happened was both a massive reduction in AoE radius and a corresponding reduction in AoE damage--either through nerfing it to the bedrock or distributing it among enemies (more enemies, less damage per enemy). 

Instead we have the present mess. It's not fun playing with other people anymore because all you see is AoE spam. The result is you play mostly solo, play only in bespoke groups, or quit playing altogether. None are particularly good directions for the game to be proceeding down. 

[Troll_Logic]

On 2021-10-28 at 3:52 PM, Prexades said:

It will be an unpopular opinion, but AoE spam went really out of control when self damage was removed. Even the self stagger can be negated way too easily with Primed Sure Footed. I would propose that Primed Sure Footed only affects stagger effects caused by enemies, while ignoring any self stagger.

PSF is perfect.  Leave it alone.

[DroopingPuppy]

On 2021-11-08 at 9:09 AM, OmegaVoid said:

Agree. It was great fun! I still miss it. 😢

I can't understand why kill you instantly even if it is not your fault seems even have a molecule of fun.

On 2021-11-09 at 10:46 AM, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Even with self damage and insane self stagger. We can still equip it, make a Wukong Clone then ignore every drawback the mechanics have. 

That's why I think that nerf it never makes the players stop to use the good AOE weapons. Plus you have Arcane Revive.

On 2021-11-11 at 3:05 AM, Joezone619 said:

I Completely agree. When they changed self damage to self stagger, AoE skyrocketed waaaay out of control, now 9/10 at least 1 person in your squad is spamming AoE.

No, it is Kuva Bramma which was actually skyrocketed, not the other AOEs. That's why it needs to be nerfed but as you know it didn't have the nerf ever since - you can't call what DE says the nerf for the bramma really the 'nerf', do you?

 

The problem on AOE were not only they have unnoticeable quality as well as having unfair self-killing penalty, and even if you revert the self-stagger to self-instant killing it changes nothing and they are still stick with the good AOE weapons. The real problem is some powerful AOE weapons, as well as poor performance of most non-AOE weapons, while the game needs us to kill a bunch of enemy faster. All you could stop is stop the players to aim their feets, nothing more. If you are satisfied for this then it is fine but I doubt that it is all you want. Just get the reality - it never lets the players to not use the AOE weapons at all and you don't get the point.

 

Remember that we have used Lenz when the self-instant killing was live. And as I and the other said above, we can also play Wukong instead and Wukong is not that unpopular either.

[Kaichi16]

y'know, most games that have self-damage can handle it pretty well... it's really easy: just apply lephantis DR to selfdamage. no matter how strong your kuva brahma riven be, you'll never kill yourself with TONS of DR (EXCLUSIVE TO SELF-DAMAGE). or do percentage damage(any self-damage with any weapon will deal X% shield/health damage. another option would be self damage = X% base damage(if your weapon does 1000 base damage, you'll take a percentage of that [maybe applying more reduction with armor]) .

[DroopingPuppy]

24 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

y'know, most games that have self-damage can handle it pretty well... it's really easy: just apply lephantis DR to selfdamage. no matter how strong your kuva brahma riven be, you'll never kill yourself with TONS of DR (EXCLUSIVE TO SELF-DAMAGE). or do percentage damage(any self-damage with any weapon will deal X% shield/health damage. another option would be self damage = X% base damage(if your weapon does 1000 base damage, you'll take a percentage of that [maybe applying more reduction with armor]) .

Yeah, if self-damage was actually a real self-damage, not self-instant kill, then it didn't makes AOE weapon unplayable and it never was an issue either. It was a negative issue because it instantly kills the character, while you may struck this even if you did nothing wrong.