Please change the Defense Operative AI

[Drasiel]

Upon Further Consideration Edit:

You know what this isn't about challenge or the operative being more difficult or not being able to use traditional defensive frame choices. I don't have a hard time completing the operative defence mission even when I go in with nothing to defend them with. They can be revived endlessly, the operative going down doesn't matter. My big problem is that the way the AI behaves completely knocks me out of immersion with the game, it ruins any flow state, any suspension of disbelief, any feeling of me being an awesome space ninja and just reminds me I'm some person sitting at desk hating on a piece of badly written code and why am I wasting my time with a this bit of code that actively tries to sabotage the mission to ultimately no ill effect.

Original Post

Because I didn't want to clear out my rivens I haven't played sorties for a couple years, I had forgotten the reason I refused to play any sortie with a Defence Objective.  Let me tell you I was violently reminded of why I avoided them when I played the defence sortie today for nightwave.

The Defence operative is beyond brain dead they are actively suicidal. Armed or unarmed they:

• walk towards enemies who are firing on them.
• Refuse to use any kind of cover.
• Will not stay put inside defensive powers (they avoid doing this to the point I actually think they must be programmed to avoid any life saving measures).
• Will not move away from even melee enemies striking them.

It's been like this for years. It doesn't make the sortie more challenging it makes it frustrating because you have to fight with an AI that is supposed to be on your side but is clearly rooting for the enemies to win. I'd rather defend the awful reactor from the grineer asteroid defense map than this nonsensical AI with a clear death wish.

[tel__arin]

I mean is part of the challenge of the sortie.

The defense target in arbitration is way easier to defend though because he always follow the player #1. 

[Drasiel]

26 minutes ago, tel__arin said:

I mean is part of the challenge of the sortie.

The defense target in arbitration is way easier to defend though because he always follow the player #1. 

It's not a challenge, it's annoying. The defence target's suicidal nature has never caused a mission failure merely made the 10 rounds a miserable play experience. About the only mission it made it more likely to fail was on the kuva fortress map because it would stand in the traps and things were changed to prevent that from happening.

[gamingchair1121]

pretty much the only thing you can do to to prevent them from dying is banish them. luckily banish is a subsume but still.

also would recommend using a volt nuke and an ogris nuke because screw defense missions

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

It's not a challenge, it's annoying.

Can't it be both? :P

Seriously though, I find it a challenge.  Especially solo, or if one of the frames in a squad isn't built to trivialize the issue.  Or if the rest of the squad is careless.

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

The defence target's suicidal nature has never caused a mission failure

Haha, it's definitely contributed to some.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Can't it be both? :P

Seriously though, I find it a challenge.  Especially solo, or if one of the frames in a squad isn't built to trivialize the issue.  Or if the rest of the squad is careless.

Haha, it's definitely contributed to some.

I suppose it could be both but you can revive them infinite times so you need to be pretty poorly set up to encounter that in my experience.

I think the thing that bothers me more than anything about it is just how immersion breaking it is. Defend this dude but the dude immediately goes and tries to get himself killed and ignores/avoids anything that would prolong his survival. : \

[CoffeeElemental]

Cool story time:

Recently I failed a defence sortie because of that genius operative was able to somehow get stuck in a ceiling and get shot - we weren't able to revive them.

[Pakaku]

Give them a Sonicor with max fire rate, nothing can touch them after that.

[Drasiel]

Oh. Good. Fantastic. Note my massive sarcasm. The new Archon Hunt sorties use the same actively suicidal AI.

Look can we at least get some changes for immersion because I can't believe this suicidal brick brained operative incapable of wiping his own butt he's so stupid could possible have information we need to protect.

• Don't let him walk towards enemies if he's unarmed
  • bonus points if he could you know slowly walk away from them even
• You don't want us to use Emplaced warframe powers to protect him fine allow him to actually use the cover designed into the level. If a grineer with clone rot in their brain can figure that out the operative damn well better be able to as well
• Don't have him crouch down like he's behind cover in the middle of nowhere where he takes damage from all sides.
• Don't have the aggro on the operative be so high that when an enemy is 50+ meters away from it and you are right up in the same enemies face they still shoot around you to hit the operative.

The AI behaves like it's fundamentally broken, why is this okay?

Edit:

You know what this isn't about challenge or the operative being more difficult or not being able to use traditional defensive frame choices. I don't have a hard time completing the operative defence mission even when I go in with nothing to defend them with. They can be revived endlessly, the operative going down doesn't matter. My big problem is that the way the AI behaves completely knocks me out of immersion with the game, it ruins any flow state, any suspension of disbelief, any feeling of me being an awesome space ninja and just reminds me I'm some person sitting at desk hating on a piece of badly written code and why am I wasting my time with a this bit of code that actively tries to sabotage the mission to ultimately no ill effect.

[SiiNN321]

I think the thing people are missing here, and we've only had a few real contributions to the thread as a result, is that the point here isn't difficulty, or mechanics of reviving the operator, or anything related to game play mechanics we can all agree are helpful. The issue here is the terrible AI seeking blissful solace in the name of some built-in suicidal tendency. 

 

I'd support the pathing and capabilities of the AI of operators to be massively improved. This isn't just true of defense-related operatives but all operatives in the game. From running syndicate missions to defection to defense. It's all really horrible. 

 

Again, this has no bearing on difficulty per se. It's an issue of a game mechanism that has been untouched and unloved for a long time. 

 

You can see in the Veilbreaker some of those mechanics seem to linger as the brothers get stuck, or just seem to not understand what my group command means and needs to be repeated.

 

This breaks game immersion and needs some love.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-08-31 at 10:47 PM, Drasiel said:

The Defence operative is beyond brain dead they are actively suicidal.

Working as Intended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I remember back when I played Loki and I would Force the Sortie Defense Operative to Stop Moving with Switch Teleport.... At one Point the Game decided to Teleport him off the Map Resulting in Mission Failed....

So Not Only are you Handi Capped by Having to baby sit the operative but you are Also Punished for Taking Measures to Prevent his Stupidity.... That, Tenno... Is the Warframe Experience ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[iHaku]

On 2022-09-01 at 2:01 AM, gamingchair1121 said:

pretty much the only thing you can do to to prevent them from dying is banish them. luckily banish is a subsume but still.

nah, you can also buff them in several ways. trinity full heals+full shields+75% damage reduction buffs them with her 4. operator should literally never even go down even if you stay in there for an hour. gara can also dr buff them, just like some other frames.

[BR31]

Not just ai - they should change his scaling in sp and arbitrations. And make him actually scale.

[SiiNN321]

3 hours ago, BR31 said:

Not just ai - they should change his scaling in sp and arbitrations. And make him actually scale.

I'd be for this change as well!!

 

 

5 hours ago, iHaku said:

nah, you can also buff them in several ways. trinity full heals+full shields+75% damage reduction buffs them with her 4. operator should literally never even go down even if you stay in there for an hour. gara can also dr buff them, just like some other frames.

 I think the repeat theme of responses here follow using player side changes or compensating for the terrible design with specific play style. Forcing someone to play Gara, or Trinity, or Limbo or whatever else because of poor AI is not a solution. I don't want anyone to have to sit at an objective with frost and spam bubble over and over again and have that person get bored. Again, this is not a difficulty thing. I got through the Archon defense just fine.

The issue is the AI purposefully seeking death instead of seeking cover. Heck, they can even go walking around to objectives in some form of loop to actually fulfill the lore of the operative defense. It breaks immersion. At least if they communicated to us the area they will be in as they are gathering Intel, that is more immersive that the operator jumping up and down the earth tileset like a dummy.

[Drasiel]

42 minutes ago, SiiNN321 said:

I'd be for this change as well!!

 

 

 I think the repeat theme of responses here follow using player side changes or compensating for the terrible design with specific play style. Forcing someone to play Gara, or Trinity, or Limbo or whatever else because of poor AI is not a solution. I don't want anyone to have to sit at an objective with frost and spam bubble over and over again and have that person get bored. Again, this is not a difficulty thing. I got through the Archon defense just fine.

The issue is the AI purposefully seeking death instead of seeking cover. Heck, they can even go walking around to objectives in some form of loop to actually fulfill the lore of the operative defense. It breaks immersion. At least if they communicated to us the area they will be in as they are gathering Intel, that is more immersive that the operator jumping up and down the earth tileset like a dummy.

Yeah having him move around the map to get better cell service or something so he can upload his data would be waaaaay less immersion breaking it also means he can stop places for brief stints and would make his behaviour much more palatable and sensible.

Why are you walking towards those enemies with no weapon equipped? It's the only way to get the signal out, can't stop the signal mal.

[(PSN)M00n_Slippers]

I definitely think there should be an option to tell the operator to follow/hold position like you can for Spectors and lures. In that situation you might have to fight your allies moving them around, but assuming everyone is reasonably intelligent, probably not. It would make him easier to position for defending.

[iHaku]

15 hours ago, SiiNN321 said:

 I think the repeat theme of responses here follow using player side changes or compensating for the terrible design with specific play style. Forcing someone to play Gara, or Trinity, or Limbo or whatever else because of poor AI is not a solution.

i never said it was. i was simply saying that "limbo is da only wae" is incorrect, as there are other frames that can easily protect the operator. you simply interpreted that as me saying "its fine that his AI is S#&$ty because you can use a bunch of frames to protect him" which isnt something i said or even implied.

 

i dont like the operator ai either. tho i dont see a good solution for it. if you can tell it "stay here" then its really no different from any other defense target. it would be nice if it was a bit more.... uh... "concerned" for its own well being and more realistically run away from enemies after being hit by them or something.

[GourangaPL]

just add him "hold position" option like a specter and we're done, no need to change his AI

[SiiNN321]

On 2022-09-09 at 3:11 PM, GourangaPL said:

just add him "hold position" option like a specter and we're done, no need to change his AI

Completely disagree. If you can have the operative hold position, it's way too easy to defend and cheese. At which point, the normal objective fulfills the same purpose and it's health scales much better than an operatives currently. In this case, why did DE even implement the operative other than giving them a "oops" button in the form of revive?

I think we would all be better off if the operative did something useful and in tune with the game mode's objective. 

[Drasiel]

On 2022-09-09 at 4:35 AM, iHaku said:

i never said it was. i was simply saying that "limbo is da only wae" is incorrect, as there are other frames that can easily protect the operator. you simply interpreted that as me saying "its fine that his AI is S#&$ty because you can use a bunch of frames to protect him" which isnt something i said or even implied.

 

i dont like the operator ai either. tho i dont see a good solution for it. if you can tell it "stay here" then its really no different from any other defense target. it would be nice if it was a bit more.... uh... "concerned" for its own well being and more realistically run away from enemies after being hit by them or something.

They could have it move to specific locations in the map and pause for short periods, they could supply better in game reasoning for why the AI is so attracted to the enemy locations, even if it didn't walk towards enemies that were shooting at it it would be an improvement.

We've already got an AI in the game with Latrox Une who moves around and then stays still for a bit afterward. You could do something similar except having it move and stop multiple times to upload data. Then it at least makes sense to move towards enemies since "gotta go there for the cell service"

On 2022-09-09 at 1:11 PM, GourangaPL said:

just add him "hold position" option like a specter and we're done, no need to change his AI

unfortunately that would negate most of the difficulty that was added by making a mobile defence target, and because the operative is a lot smaller than the defence objectives it would be even easier to defend. It moving around isn't necessarily bad, it just currently does it in the worst way possible, and I would like to see that improved.

[uberfu]

Quote

@Drasiel  ... the way the AI behaves completely knocks me out of immersion with the game ...

 

Really - THAT's your problem - the Immersion ? In a game that is set in some other reality with aliens and mechs and space travel and multiple interdimensional situations (void / rift) and magical powers and time travel and invisibility and self propelled flight by individuals without physcial/mechanical propulsion and so on.

What breaks it for you is the AI target not behaving like a player (or an actual real world target needing protection) would.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[uberfu]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

unfortunately that would negate most of the difficulty that was added by making a mobile defence target, and because the operative is a lot smaller than the defence objectives it would be even easier to defend. It moving around isn't necessarily bad, it just currently does it in the worst way possible, and I would like to see that improved.

Ooorrrrr ... you could just maintain position around where the AI target is and readjust as it moves ... And you don't need Limbo - most any Frame works just fine.  Your complaint seems to center more around the fact that you want the game to conform to your play style instead of you having to adapt to the constraints of the game.

I'm absolutely certain that what you want as an individual player should be outweighed by the thousands of personal wants by other players all wanting their own unique change to the game in order to accommodate each of them.

Good Luck with that.

[Drasiel]

6 minutes ago, uberfu said:

Really - THAT's your problem - the Immersion ? In a game that is set in some other reality with aliens and mechs and space travel and multiple interdimensional situations (void / rift) and magical powers and time travel and invisibility and self propelled flight by individuals without physcial/mechanical propulsion and so on.

What breaks it for you is the AI target not behaving like a player (or an actual real world target needing protection) would.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Yes, because other AI and story points are consistent with the science fantasy world set up by the game. Lotus sends us on a mission saying we need to protect this operative because his information is critical and what does the holder of this critical information do? He tries to kill himself. He actively behaves like he's trying to fail the mission and it's jarring and bizarre.

Just now, uberfu said:

Ooorrrrr ... you could just maintain position around where the AI target is and readjust as it moves ... And you don't need Limbo - most any Frame works just fine.  Your complaint seems to center more around the fact that you want the game to conform to your play style instead of you having to adapt to the constraints of the game.

I'm absolutely certain that what you want as an individual player should be outweighed by the thousands of personal wants by other players all wanting their own unique change to the game in order to accommodate each of them.

Good Luck with that.

I don't care if he goes down, you can revive him infinitely, it really doesn't matter what frame you bring. The operative doesn't really increase the difficulty if you aren't already dying your self, which I'm not. This isn't an issue with completing the mode or reviving the operative, this is the specific behaviour of the AI in the mission ruining flow, because I expect to defend someone who wants to live, not to be on suicide watch for good ol' bondage bob.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-09-09 at 10:11 PM, GourangaPL said:

just add him "hold position" option like a specter and we're done, no need to change his AI

Isn't that Basically the Same thing....

If you Tell him to Stay put then you are Basically just turning off the AI Completely 👀....

 

[Wheelhouser]

So, like others, any Sortie with a defense mission is a hard pass for me.  Just not very fun.  And I play Wisp, so I'm going to prevent him from dying just by using my abilities.

So of course it was stage 2 of the Archon Hunt.  And that was 18 minutes of boredom, babysitting a braindead AI, who, presumably, wants to live (it is the objective, after all), but simply does not have the capability to attempt to live.

I know it's an easy to complete mission by just dropping health motes near him periodically, but it's just annoying playing with bad AI.  Why would I want to save somebody with such a terrible sense of self-preservation?  How is someone this braindead useful to the "Tenno cause"?