Archon shards - what's the point of shield/hp/regen shards when you have armor?

[quxier]

I've calculated Effective hp using some site and put results:

Quote

	no shard		normal armor shard	tau armor shard		normal hp shard	tau hp shard
Shield	267		267	267		267	267
hp	740		740	740		890	965
armor	137		287	362		137	137
ehp	1345		1715	1900		1563	1673

Armor gives more EHP in every case (normal vs tauforged shards). Shields just gives 150/225 more EHP and they are worse for shield gating.

HP regen is even more joke. 5 hp/s. With my Xaku it would takes me 148 seconds. Even with Tauforged it would take me 98 seconds. Even with 5x tau it would take me ~19 seconds.

 

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

[quxier]

46 minutes ago, tel__arin said:

There are frames like valkyr that benefit more from health in the EHP than other frames. Some frames like hildryn and styanax need shields to power their skills.

I guess Hildryn but STyanax is kind of middle ground. It has that crit bonus but it's very small. So you either need a lot of shields or just normal shields (or smaller with Dragon key to shield gate).

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean, even outside specific examples/scenarios that may benefit, choice is always a pretty good reason. Just because some choices are better/meta than others, don't necessarily means they shouldn't be there. If they were absent, people would probably make more threads asking why shield shards aren't there as options? We also don't know what the future may hold, for all we know, 2024 may have a shield rework that make sit meta for some Warframes, Then people might switch around shards to these effects. 

[LustyBoar]

Actually the yellow shard is who rlly sucks xd

[AntifreezeUnder0]

12 hours ago, quxier said:

But wouldn't more EHP (so more armor) give you even more time to heal as you get less hits?

Well lets put this way. When im full on grendels 1. I get ''2000'' more armor, since its works , that 1 enemy is 50 more armor and i get to eat max 40 of them. 

Sadly i dont notice much of a difference on the dmg i take when i have 40 of them inside + the armor i have from moding. Even when helminth is grateful and i get get 1k more armor for a week, it also doesnt change much on long missions on sp.  Since investing in armor have diminished returns at certain point. There is a sweetspot of how much armor you need and after that it isnt worth to invest in armor since your dr goes up only by 0.x%.

Even when i play with mecha mod set i get often 1200% more armor of base armor, and still dmg i receive is pretty much same and even pet gets 1 shotted often. Although pet get my armor linked!

I would say that hp, shields, armor and hp regen will serve their purpose on frames who lack and could benefit using them. I would argree that maybe some numbers need some higher digits to them. 

For me hp regen on grendel also serves as ''energy restore'' for his feast while i use gourmand augment. If i get tau shard and use it, i pretty much will restore 7.5 hp/s which get drained per 1 enemy. IF i get to stack for example 5 tau shards ill restore 37.5 hp/s which means i can easely run arround 5 enemies in my belly with my hp staying full! Of course that is when their armor are gone and drain increases. But on top of everything for hp restore i use. This could be a bit easy mode on harder lvls. Since for me it doesnt matter if enemy is lvl 1 or 9999 aslong its not eximus and or other special unedible unit, i om nom it.

I also am anticipating the shard which gives casting speed, because with it i could make grendel become pseudo gutling gun! :D and other frames who are not used because of slow casting and isnt worth sacrificing mod slot for natural talent will get their chance to step into next tier of gameplay or memeplay. 

Over all shard system will serve their purpose. Meta will become more efficient, other frames get to step into meta tier options, more meme builds and essentialy variety in frames being played will be there.  

 

 

[KitMeHarder]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

I have P.Flow already and probably many of us had that. I'm more likely to put few cast speed shards than this.

I just meant exclusively for the numerous blue shards we'll be accumulating, might as well use them for something.

And IDK about most people, but I don't use flow much. I much prefer efficiency mods, so 50-75 energy is kinda nice (especially on frames with less than 150 base).

[Graavarg]

8 hours ago, quxier said:

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

I think what you've missed is that all shard effects are "extra", on top of everything else we can use.

This boils down to two main uses:

1. you can get higher values than what was possible before
2. or you can use shards to stay at your current "power" level even if you switch a mod/arcane/whatever to something else

In a way they are simply free new mods, having an effect but not taking up any mod space. And that IS their "thing".

As to if we actually need them? For adding even more power, not really. But anything allowing for more diversity is welcome (though modding for diversity also takes character, as Calvin's dad would say if he played Warframe).

But analyzing need, percentages etc. is pretty irrelevant, since simply because they ADD MORE POWER they immediately become "must-haves" for a certain part of the community.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

You can use shards to min max or you can use shards to replace mods so that you can do something more interesting with a loadout.   Your also only talking defense shards but you only got 5 slots and have to choose between defense/offense/utility. 

There are various methods of survival besides just armor tanking.

Health tank + adapt (inaros/grendel)

Shield tank + Adapt (many frames but most recently protea/caliban/styanax)

Many many other frames will love having an innate +75% strength/duration from tau offense shards.

(imo armor shards r a decent idea for paper warframes but I think it will only mainly help your pets survive lol because of Link Armor.  I think even on paper warframes tho I will be taking more interesting choices)

[Malikaith]

Il y a 2 heures, quxier a dit :

I've calculated Effective hp using some site and put results:

Armor gives more EHP in every case (normal vs tauforged shards). Shields just gives 150/225 more EHP and they are worse for shield gating.

HP regen is even more joke. 5 hp/s. With my Xaku it would takes me 148 seconds. Even with Tauforged it would take me 98 seconds. Even with 5x tau it would take me ~19 seconds.

 

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

Guardian is a thing on sentienls, refilling all shields once they break every 60 seconds. Not huge, but a factor

[Traumtulpe]

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ok, that's Garuda specific. In general healing would help her but 5/7.5 hp/s is small as someone said.

What other frames would get more from hp regen than armor?

If you equip the -health Dragon Key, even a single shard will be enough to achieve essentially infinite energy.

Also, any amount of health regen will let you spam Bloodletting, which may be useful for the augment.

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

Is this really useful?

On Rhino, yes.

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, xXDragonGodXx said:

. I will agree that a hp re-gen of 5 hp/s is low, but that does not mean it's a joke, nor does it exempt it from use in someones play style.

How it would Help Garuda? She has already hp regen.

8 minutes ago, xXDragonGodXx said:

while others might find more use for armor or health.

What's the point of having HP when taking armor makes frame take more hits. I don't get why someone would pick additional hp instead of armor.

9 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

More hp would give me more time to heal and or utilize hp regen more. Be it via shard bonuses, hirudo healing, gloom + weapon dmg, or panzer cat with hunter recovery.

But wouldn't more EHP (so more armor) give you even more time to heal as you get less hits?

9 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

hp regen is for when you need healing (for example a Garuda that wants to spam Bloodletting).

Ok, that's Garuda specific. In general healing would help her but 5/7.5 hp/s is small as someone said.

What other frames would get more from hp regen than armor?

24 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

shield is for when you use Parasitic Armor (increased by power strength)

Is this really useful? You may get e.g. 2x more armor from Parasitic armor (200% strength is reasonable) but you are disabling shield gating. Even frame like Hildryn with ~12k armor get melted with just one heavy gunner 155 level.

22 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Shields' innate 25% damage reduction

So, you get 125% EHP from shields, if my math is right. So 150 * 125% = 187 OR with Tau: 225*125% = 281.

With normal shards armor I get 370 more EHP. With Tau I get 555. Armor is still better than shield.

29 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Health mods devalue your health shard. So why no armor mods or arcane guardian to do the same for armor?

I have no armor mods afair. If there is one it's just +15% from Armored agility. 2 umbras are vitality & intesnify.

I've done some testing and indeed putting vitality makes armor shards better. Just +150 hp (1 shard) make hp & armor shards equal.

Here is data:

Spoiler

Quote

Without hp/armor mods:
	no shard		normal armor shard	tau armor shard		normal hp shard	tau hp shard
hp	291		291	291		441	516
shield	267		267	267		267	267
armor	137		287	362		137	137
ehp	691		836	909		909	1019
+150hp
	no shard		normal armor shard	tau armor shard		normal hp shard	tau hp shard
hp	441		441	441		591	666
shield	267		267	267		267	267
armor	137		287	362		137	137
ehp	909		1130	1240		1128	1237
2 shards
	no shard		2x normal armor	2x tau armor		2x normal hp	2x tau hp
hp	291		291	291		591	741
shield	267		267	267		267	267
armor	137		437	587		137	137
ehp	691		982	1127		1128	1346

 

 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

• And everyone will probably just use energy capacity anyway.

I have P.Flow already and probably many of us had that. I'm more likely to put few cast speed shards than this.

[tel__arin]

There are frames like valkyr that benefit more from health in the EHP than other frames. Some frames like hildryn and styanax need shields to power their skills.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

You forgot...

• Shields' innate 25% damage reduction
• Health mods devalue your health shard. So why no armor mods or arcane guardian to do the same for armor?
• And everyone will probably just use energy capacity anyway.

[NinjaZeku]

54 minutes ago, quxier said:

Armor

One situation I imagine could be, if you massively boost Armor via abilities / Arcanes / whatnot, 
a mere (flat) 150 more isn't gonna do a whole lot while some +Health Shards might have a bigger EHP impact,
not least if you don't actually equip any Health Mods (or only lesser ones like Gladiator Resolve).

Health regen is just for comfort / casual tanking I suppose, but yeah, the amount seems a bit low.

And dunno 'bout Shields lol, that's kind of a stat / mechanic that maybe should get some attention in general.

[Traumtulpe]

36 minutes ago, quxier said:

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

Armor is for general EHP, shield is for when you use Parasitic Armor (increased by power strength), regen is for when you need healing (for example a Garuda that wants to spam Bloodletting).

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Well some frames benefit from more hp, more armor or shields. And in lvl cap runs, nothing matters since its 1 shot most of the times.

Like for me grendel with bit more shields would mean i can do hijack missions more quickly. Since using mods to boost shields are waste of a slots. More hp would give me more time to heal and or utilize hp regen more. Be it via shard bonuses, hirudo healing, gloom + weapon dmg, or panzer cat with hunter recovery.

Too bad inaros cant have shields. Imagine inaros shieldgating.

 

[xXDragonGodXx]

30 minutes ago, quxier said:

What's the point of them? Have I missed something?

What you have missed is the fact that what you are describing is mostly a Meta way of thinking and does not contribute to any play style. Someone might find it more useful to their specific play style to use the shield or health re-gen buffs, while others might find more use for armor or health. But instead of looking at the possibilities for different play styles and the like, you are presenting meta, and usage of shield-gating. I will agree that a hp re-gen of 5 hp/s is low, but that does not mean it's a joke, nor does it exempt it from use in someones play style. For instance, it might work very nicely with a Garuda, or for a person that wants to take it a bit slower through a mission while blocking incoming bullets and killing individual enemies with a melee attack. The possibilities are there, and what you are presenting is essentially you not being able to see the forest behind the trees.