AoE is nerfed, but Aimbot gets a pass?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

once again, ignoring my points on how useless and meaningless those "drawbacks" are.

"it's not aimbot tho"

....

..

Am I really the one trollin here?

You are moving the cursor towards the enemies and pressing the trigger. It’s requires you aim at enemies. It does not play the game for you like wukclone infinite ammo did. Bit of difference. Wuclone was aimbot which is why it was nerfed, it played the game for you. 

[PublikDomain]

What makes you think it gets a pass forever? DE didn't touch anything but Wukong and guns, and abilities can cause all of the same problems too. It wouldn't be surprising if those abilities get reviewed soon as well.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

ignoring my points on how those drawbacks are good on paper but useless and meaningless in practice

While you ignore AoE weapons had no drawback. Mesa still has many drawbacks. 

[cute_moth.npc]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

What makes you think it gets a pass forever? DE didn't touch anything but Wukong and guns, and abilities can cause all of the same problems too. It wouldn't be surprising if those abilities get reviewed soon as well.

I know I'm getting nerfed. People keep posting something they do with another thing and can't stop talking about it, it's coming. I don't want to face it yet ><

[-Moctezuma-]

Just now, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

While you ignore AoE weapons had no drawback. Mesa still has many drawbacks. 

When did I deny AoE weapons had no drawbacks?

I already told you, I never said AoE and Mesa peacemaker are the same, but they are similar and have things in common

And once again, yes mesa DOES have drawbacks, but they are MEANINGLESS and have little effect due to how easy it is to get around them, such as the incredibly cheap energy pizzas, or imply pressing 4 again due to the ability having no cooldown whatsoever

[RichardKam]

To those who said Mesa is auto aiming and should be nerfed.

Shall we nerf Cyanex as well?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

What makes you think it gets a pass forever? DE didn't touch anything but Wukong and guns, and abilities can cause all of the same problems too. It wouldn't be surprising if those abilities get reviewed soon as well.

 

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

That said I could care less if DE changes her 4 to a more “skill” based version. Go nuts. But OPs justification to delete it because AoE ammo was nerfed is stupid. 

 

[-Moctezuma-]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

But OPs justification to delete it because AoE ammo was nerfed is stupid.

another reason I mentioned AoE getting a nerf was because it shows that DE is FINALLY willing to crack down on the stupidly OP stuff that the game has had for a while and was untouched, with this new team, I am hopefull they also crack down on stuff like Mesa peacemaker, maybe Saryn nuke in the future?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

When did I deny AoE weapons had no drawbacks?

You compared weapon AoE to Mesa Peacemaker…. 

“But if AoE was such a big problem because it didn't allow players who used non aoe weapons to enjoy the missions they were in (as in, the entire room was dead before they could even kill one)

Then why does Mesa's peacemaker ability still exist?” 
 

AoE had zero drawbacks. Mesa peacemaker does. 

[-Moctezuma-]

Just now, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

AoE had zero drawbacks

You forget about self staggering?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

You forget about self staggering?

[-Moctezuma-]

Just now, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Thougth so.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2022-09-22 at 12:12 AM, -Moctezuma- said:

Thougth so.

Lol smh. Let’s move the goal post shall we? 

tell me you’re a Newb without telling me your a Newb. My goodness. Do you have any idea how many frames are stagger immune. Or how easy it is to mod for no stagger…. AoE weapons had absolutely no drawbacks, none.

[-Moctezuma-]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Lol smh 

tell me you’re a Newb without telling me your a Newb. My goodness. Do you have any idea how many frames are stagger immune. Or how easy it is to mod for no stagger….

See? that's exactly what I meant when talking about the peacemaker drawbacks

The  self staggering "drawback" that AoE has, is meaningless because of the ammount of mods and other ways to make it almost a non issue

The "drawbacks" that peacemaker has, are meaningless because of the ammount of ways to get around them, such as energy pads which are extremely cheap, or operator energy bubble, Or...simply pressing 4 again, etc.

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

See? that's exactly what I meant when talking about the peacemaker drawbacks

The  self staggering "drawback" that AoE has, is meaningless because of the ammount of mods and other ways to make it non existent

The "drawback" that peacemaker has, is meaningless because of the ammount of ways to get around them, such as energy pads which are extremely cheap, or operator energy bubble, etc.

 

Sounds like energy economy is what needs to be fixed/nerfed or whatever and not delete PM because AoE weps were nerfed.  

[-Moctezuma-]

Just now, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Sounds like energy economy is what needs to be fixed/nerfed or whatever and not deleting PM because AoE weps were nerfed. 

That could be a solution, but once again, the main reason I mentioned  AoE weps being nerfed and me relating it to Peacemaker, is because DE is FINALLY coming down on all the things that make this game an unbalanced mess, starting with fixing the energy economy could be the first step, before cracking down on abiltiies, abilities that are broken not because of their design, but because of the energy problem

[cute_moth.npc]

4 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

That could be a solution, but once again, the main reason I mentioned  AoE weps being nerfed and me relating it to Peacemaker, is because DE is FINALLY coming down on all the things that make this game an unbalanced mess, starting with fixing the energy economy could be the first step, before cracking down on abiltiies, abilities that are broken not because of their design, but because of the energy problem

I feel like they're starting to become a little bit more aware of things they really just should not add more of into the game at the very least (a light but probably necessary form of curation! did you notice how with all of the new Archon mods and shards they actively chose not to add any more skill range? I think that is a smart move), but I also do not think that they are going to turn Warframe into a game where traditional "gamers" like me and I think from the sounds of it you will be comforted to know that there aren't any things that offend our sensibilities either. I think they mostly did that because AoE was just drowning out the rest of the game, personally.

I really understand, stuff like aimbots and for me on a personal level skills like Mesmer Skin that just turn off survival as a concern are "cheating" - but it has in a way become an essence of the game. I agree with my heart as a gamer that Peacemaker is hella cheap, but my Warframe heart says "that's okay, the game isn't deeply suffering because of it". They live together now ^^

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

So yeah, I think peacemaker should be removed and replaced with something that isn't a literal aimbot? lol

I think people who don't play Mesa don't get to decide how she gets Nerfed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb -Moctezuma-:

I don't understand how DE operates when it comes to nerfing stuff

Did AOE deserve a nerf? Yes.

But if AoE was such a big problem because it didn't allow players who used non aoe weapons to enjoy the missions they were in (as in, the entire room was dead before they could even kill one)

Then why does Mesa's peacemaker ability still exist? it is a literal aimbot, and all it costs is a little bit of energy, which btw, getting energy in warframe is extremely easy nowadays due to how many energy sources we have now (energy pizzas, operator energy bubble, etc)

"Oh but the line of sigth for the weapon to shoot decreases which each enemy shot at" 

People can easily recast the ability lol, just press 4 again and there you go

"Oh but that ability has its drawbacks, such as consuming energy while using it"

Do you know how easy it is to get energy in 2022? it doesn't matter if it is a high energy cost, you see these little blue things? these things are hella cheap and restore 100 energy per pulse

 

Let me explain the difference:

If 99% is using AOE weapons and less than 4% use Mesa even on lower levels... this might be an indicator that Mesa is not as powerful as you think. Mesa is useless in Steel Path btw (at least with Grineer) and AOE is very, very viable in Steel Path, even after the nerf.

 

[taiiat]

yeah, everyone (hopefully) knows how to use Peacemaker and that in practice it doesn't really have any negative traits or limiting factors.

i don't have an opinion past that, but the theoretical limitations of Peacemaker don't apply in actual Gameplay.

[-Moctezuma-]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't have an opinion past that, but the theoretical limitations of Peacemaker don't apply in actual Gameplay.

Exactly

[taiiat]

4 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

Exactly

now, one can probably say Nerfs based on popularity wouldn't end up touching it much because the popularity is much lower - due to using the other thing effectively and knowing how to have good Damage - requires many more functioning Brain Cells, and therefore is why it's not very popular.
it's a game primarily catering to People after all, so the sort of Players that are playing are majority comprised of expecting things for free. having to plan their Loadout for it to be good, is already asking too much of them.
and, ergo.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I agree , you do not understand.

I suggest going through the earlier devstream where they explained it.

And they did Nerf mesa a long time ago where it targeted all enemies in range and didn't have an area to focus on.

Let's also not forget that you are immobile while using it (though you can augment it a bit for some mobility) , need line of sight , energy drains over time and get reduced area to focus on over time.

And mesa is far from the only frame that can kill large numbers of enemies very quickly. If warframe's devs decide after years and years "welp abilities just cant kill stuff well anymore no more kill stuff abilties" that would be one of the biggest 180°s in gaming.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, -Moctezuma- said:

That could be a solution, but once again, the main reason I mentioned  AoE weps being nerfed and me relating it to Peacemaker, is because DE is FINALLY coming down on all the things that make this game an unbalanced mess, starting with fixing the energy economy could be the first step, before cracking down on abiltiies, abilities that are broken not because of their design, but because of the energy problem

I take issue with use of the words "fixing the energy economy". 

I disagree with the idea mesa needs to be nerfed at all. Because plenty of other methods for killing S#&amp;&#036; exist. 

But even completely ignoring that. Across the board sweeping changes to energy economy have the potential to hit some frames way harder than others in a way that isnt fair. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, -Moctezuma- said:

You forget about self staggering?

You forget about primed surefooted or any of the frames/abilities that have stagger immunity? Even if primed surefootes and stagger immunity werent a thing they were never much of a drawback.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Lol smh 

tell me you’re a Newb without telling me your a Newb. My goodness. Do you have any idea how many frames are stagger immune. Or how easy it is to mod for no stagger…. AoE weapons had absolutely no drawbacks, none.

He's got a point. 

AOE had none. Literally none. 

No enemies/enemy types were immune to it. Bosses, nullies, arbitrarion drones, unlike peacemaker.

Hunter munition builds didnt give a crap about steel path health/armor modifiers, unlike peacemaker. 

Aoe weapons did not require you to use any particular frame to use, unlike peacemaker.

Aoe weapons could go through walls, unlike peacemaker. 

Aoe weapons *effectively* had infinite ammo. Not "well you can do it alot" like youre talking about with peacemaker. Might as well be infinite in most cases. Energy didnt matter and neither did things like energy leeches. 

Aoe weapons did not really require you to actively manage ammo the same way youd have to actively manage energy for peacemaker. 

You gotta at least move around the map and pick up orbs, use zenurik, if using energize actually get an energize set theres a bit more to it than just "heres basically infinite ammo with zero effort"

 

The reason they nerfed AOE was because it got to the point where it was ,"why use anything else". 

 

OP, comparing mesa to AOE is an apples to oranges comparison and it seems almost dishonest to try to paint them as similar. Youre over emphasizing similarities (theyre not that similar to begin with) and downplaying or ignoring key differences. 

 

And i feel like its worth mentioning that nerfing peacemaker could very easily put her into the category of "why would anyone use this frame for anything".

 

You neuter her 4 and all you really have left is a frame that is tanky vs ranged weapons but not that tanky at all vs melee attacks or aoe attacks. 

There are frames that compete with her just fine as is.