AoE is nerfed, but Aimbot gets a pass?

[(PSN)max141064]

7 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Fun isn't subjective. Nothing is subjective. Subjectivity is what you operate on when you don't know enough about reality to operate off good information.

I know it makes you feel good to think that a game you enjoy is magic, and if you know enough about this subject to really understand it, I bet it gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling that we live in a wonderful non-deterministic universe where anything is possible... But no, everything is objectively quantifiable. It is fully possible for a developer to trash the fun of their game by making changes that sounded good based off some subjective thing they or you like or value.

Literal science tells the opposite but hey....forum dwellers 'amirite? 

The fact that you can quantify something is never the reason why something is objective. 

The fact that you think DE is "nerfing fun" is the exact reason why it is subjective, why? because the vast majority of players found the changes a good thing. Or are we going to whip out the "everyone that is fine with it is a shill" argument? 

the funny thing is that the changes came in game because THE COMMUNITY ASKED FOR THEM FOR AGES. 

are you going to be blind to this objective truth? or are you going to call everyone that doesn't think like you do "irrational"? 

13 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

This typically happens when developers and players take no effort to try and at least understand, and more importantly respect, what people like... Even if it's not entirely clear why they like it... Which in turn happens because they operate from a position that it's all just irrational to begin with, and don't even bother with objectivity as a result. "Fun is subjective" is a great way to screw up a perfectly good design, especially one that came about by accident rather than intention.

in a place where the majority makes the rules...you either adapt to it or you can leave. 

and again...since the majority asked for this, DE will not be worried about a really small minority leaving the game, trust me. 

if you want to live in a place where everything makes sense and everything is objective, you can study on how to transfer your brain in a machine. there everything is just 1+1=2.

but you wouldn't like that either because it is clear on what i pointed out that everything is fine if the changes are on something you agree on. not on the reality of the bigger picture. 

20 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Anything that goes wrong and has a bad outcome was in fact perfectly predictable. Anything that goes right, the same. It can be difficult to pick out what exactly caused success, but it can be done. Just because you don't have the information or understanding to do so, doesn't mean it's "subjective." This attitude people have that the mere mention of "fun" means we're currently living in the land of pixie dust and unicorn mayonnaise is precisely what robs people of even 20/20 hindsight, let alone the ability to make good predictions.

Just because you convinced yourself that your opinion is the objective one, it doesn't mean it actualy is.

23 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Screwing up and then thinking the screwup is fine is... Well, it's a special kind of bad. There's a reason this meme exists:

It's actually very relevant here, because a lot of the busted stuff in the game comes about because something that was fine interacts really badly with some very much not fine design issues or power creep, that goes ignored at a time when it was much easier to correct.

The problems with Wukong, and launchers, and Mesa, and many, many other things are much deeper than simply swinging around a nerf hammer can fix. They will go unaddressed while the things that people actually enjoy go and get thrown into a dumpster, precisely because "fun is subjective."

Exactly, the balance in the game was in the game at some point, then Tonkor and Sinoid came around, they fixed them, then melee came, they fixed them, now the AoE at large and a frame that could've literally stay in one place and do nothing while the clone did everything for them for literal hours and hours came and they fixed it. 

Don't like it? that's fine. 

Does this mean that we should revert back because of your interpretation of "fun"? no. 

it is kinda funny when people come to the forum to cry about how the "developers just killed the game without telling us anything!!!" when they always were against afk, going out of their way to literally rework ember, going out of their way to nerf and balance several times weapons that were just a spam-till-you-finish, going out of their way for YEARS to tell us that their goal has always been to make us use THE ENTIRE LOADOUT, going out of their way to tell us that the recent changes might be changed again because they need to see how they translate in game, going out of their way to suspend and ban people that were exploiting the flaws of the game and much much more.

but hey, STRANGELY....we never remember this stuff, uhu? 

Now please, go on and stomp your feets on why Mesa that has a massive energy drain, stuck in place or stuck in a slow walk that doesn't really change anything, aiming bubble that shrinks at every shot on an ability that can shoot up to 40 projectiles per second and the simplest fact that YOU HAVE TO STAY THERE IN FRONT OF THE SCREEN TO USE IT being the "same" as a clone that did everything for you and people literally made memed about them going to take NAPS and leaving wukong going alone with a clone that had 4 times your hps and shields, no cooldown, no time limit, no ammo requirements, 25 energy to activate it and no extra drain of energy are the same. 

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, Corvid said:

If there are things that I find fun that you don't, and vice versa, then it by definition is subjective, since its presence and absence is determined by the perception of subjects (IE: People). If there were no subjects, there would be no fun.

Perception does not dictate reality.

Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If you're done failing at object permanence, would you like to try again?

[Corvid]

17 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

you can study on how to transfer your brain in a machine. there everything is just 1+1=2.

Well, technically it would be 1+1=10.

 

17 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Perception does not dictate reality.

Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If you're done failing at object permanence, would you like to try again?

I will when you respond to my full comment. Until you actually address my supporting argument, I don't see the point in engaging with you further.

[(PSN)max141064]

Just now, Corvid said:

Well, technically it would be 1+1=10.

[Ethorin]

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

You do realize your first point is refuted by your closing statement, right?

When you say the game got stronger, that includes ways to buff the player through the roof.

Yes, and every other nuke frame got massively more out of that then Mesa did. So no it doesn't lol.

[XaoGarrent]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

Literal science tells the opposite but hey....forum dwellers 'amirite? 

No, science is literally the system we created to remove subjectivity from our attempts to understand the world. Specifically, it replaces it completely, seeking to gain a physical, factual and objective understanding of the physical, objective world we live in... Despite its nature, which is at times very resistant to inquiry. The entire point of science is to eliminate things like opinion and conjecture, flaws in perception, "feelings," etc, from the equation. ...At least as much as possible, with the tools and methods we currently have.

From here everything else you said just kinda stumbles over face first, due to this first, fundamental error.

[XaoGarrent]

14 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

Yes, and every other nuke frame got massively more out of that then Mesa did. So no it doesn't lol.

Tell me more about how Galvanized mods boost the damage of frame abilities.

[(PSN)max141064]

At this point it's impossible to save the guy. 

Let them think whatever they wants, after all...it's them that are going to 9 out of 10 leave the game while stomping their feets. 

And seeing the outlook on every game they know...probably going to quit gaming REAL QUICK. 

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

At this point it's impossible to save the guy. 

...Is precisely what every creationist tells a man of science.

[(PSN)max141064]

2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

...Is precisely what every creationist tells a man of science.

you are the one that said that fun is not subjective.

y'know...the thing "man of science" say it is. LOL

low effort troling.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2022-09-22 at 5:09 AM, cute_moth.npc said:

What were old Saryn and Ember like?

Saryn was amazing, her spores procced viral instead of corrosive (they changed that after they made corrosive useless) AND were able to spread toxin procs from weapons! You'd use a sniper modded for gas (because gas procced toxin before it was also made useless) for nice AoE damage with an active playstyle (since you still had to shoot the enemies). Now you just put spores down and kill stuff with weapons normally, apart from low levels where spores + miasma kills the entire map with 2 button presses.

[XaoGarrent]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

you are the one that said that fun is not subjective.

y'know...the thing "man of science" say it is. LOL

low effort troling.

The most impressive thing about the objective, scientific way of understanding the world is its ability to produce correct conclusions, even when the bias of the person making those conclusions places them in opposition to them.

Being a scientist doesn't make someone right. It just makes life hard for them, when they really would rather prefer that they were wrong.

Don't try to pin your appeal to authority fallacy on me.

I am not trolling, I legitimately want people to stop operating on subjective reasoning and then trying to drag other people down with them. It's not remotely helpful. I have in fact watched game studios ruin not just their games, but drive their studios into the ground by doing this repeatedly... And that's to say nothing of the incredible amount of damage it does when subjectivism, or superstition, faith, etc, embeds itself into say, a government.

[(PSN)max141064]

5 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

The most impressive thing about the objective, scientific way of understanding the world is its ability to produce correct conclusions, even when the bias of the person making those conclusions places them in opposition to them.

Being a scientist doesn't make someone right. It just makes life hard for them, when they really would rather prefer that they were wrong.

Don't try to pin your appeal to authority fallacy on me.

I am not trolling, I legitimately want people to stop operating on subjective reasoning and then trying to drag other people down with them. It's not remotely helpful. I have in fact watched game studios ruin not just their games, but drive their studios into the ground by doing this repeatedly... And that's to say nothing of the incredible amount of damage it does when subjectivism, or superstition, faith, etc, embeds itself into say, a government.

This dude is literally saying that he's right and scientists that have studied their whole damn lives to be one are wrong. 

Let that boil up, let that simmer down and then try to have a taste.

yeah, then you can put it in the trash. 

 

a whole new meaning to armchair developer, we have an armchair scientist over here!

[Ethorin]

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

Tell me more about how Galvanized mods boost the damage of frame abilities.

Why are you thinking Galvanized mods are "the game has gotten stronger since"?

 

I'd need to check, but I don't recall corrupted mods being a thing when I was being the Greedy Pull Mag for Mesa, I know for a fact that Augur and Drift mods weren't around, Arcanes weren't around, Focus wasn't a thing, many of the modern nuke frames didn't exist yet, scaling damage on abilities wasn't around, Prime Mods and Umbral Mods weren't a thing.

 

Mesa's nerfs happened literal years before Arbi's and Galv mods, Mesa got nerfed before Second Dream. 

[XaoGarrent]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

This dude is literally saying that he's right and scientists that have studied their whole damn lives to be one are wrong. 

Let that boil up, let that simmer down and then try to have a taste.

yeah, then you can put it in the trash. 

 

a whole new meaning to armchair developer, we have an armchair scientist over here!

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

https://google.gprivate.com/search.php?search?q=wrong+things+scientists+once+believed

[AzureScion]

2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

--snip--

I think I've made my point here. Your argument, whether you want to admit it, basically boils down to "I like this, and not that, and the things I don't like should be treated differently."

Sorry. Your language is too difficult for a grade schooler like me. I didn't read them all but I don't like how you constantly attack me inbetween your arguments. That is not nice. You want to have lengthy arguments? That's fine. But there is no need for the unnecessary condescending tone and snarky remarks. 

 

1. Mesa having more buttons to press to operate properly vs Wukong's twin is not a subjective point, it's an objective truth. You have to actually hold down your mouse button after you press 4 to shoot with her. That alone requires way more buttons to press than Wukong needed to operate at optimal capacity.

2. Even if I was being subjective I think I share the opinion with the majority of players that PLAYING THE GAME is more fun than MAKING SANDWICH WHILE THE GAME PLAYS FOR YOU. I mean if you enjoy the latter then why play the game in the first place? Make the sandwich, THEN play the game.

3. I don't like your attitude towards me in this point. I know my math thank you. And my scale still stands accurate. If anything I think you should be the one revisiting your math because decimals still count towards any scaling basis. But okay. If you insist. If Mesa is a 1, then Wukong is a 0. There, no decimals. I hope you're happy with my grade school math.

4. Yes, holding your mouse button and frantically spinning your camera to aim at enemies still takes a heck lot more work than you could ever need playing Wukong. You said nobody plays him like that? You haven't played in public enough. I play in Asia which before update 3.2 EVERYBODY played Wukong exactly the way I described you. Except they're probably not making sandwich. Probably watching bilibili, tiktok, walking their dog, whatever. I wouldn't know. I'm not even exaggerating when I say this: it was more likely for you to meet a team of 3 AFKongs than it is a team without him. Don't believe me? Fine. If my experience doesn't count, then neither should yours. Oh and they work. They work great. That's why everybody was playing like that. And Steel Path should not be measured as the standard as it is merely a mode to challenge high end players, not the majority of playerbase. 

5. Oh and yes, Cookie Clicker does probably require more effort than playing Mesa, but then it quadruples the amount you needed to play Wukong. Mesa had already been hit with many many nerfs already to the point of her not being the top pick for high level content anymore, like everyone else mentioned but you failed to notice. Wukong hasn't had any since his rework. This was his first. And I'm sure many more to come. Mesa is already fine as she is right now. If you want to hammer braindead frames there are others that are more braindead like Saryn, Ember, that should take more priority than her. But I doubt DE would do that because they know what the game needs and doesn't need.

6. I'm sure you don't play Mesa often then because she has an augment called Mesa's Waltz that can make her move during her 4 and enables her to roll around. Plus rooting her 4 is a mean to give her a drawback, so the players have to manually deactivate her 4 and look for other vantage point for her to shoot from. That is still more interactive in my book than jumping into mission, press 1, walk to objective, wait around until you're finished then cloud your way, bypassing parkour while at it, to extraction.

I'm failing to see why you are refusing to understand that my sandwich making description is giving you an accurate enough picture on why Wukong required way effort than any single warframe in the game prior to update 3.2.

7. But interactivity was the WHOLE POINT OF THE CHANGE. This is their goal. They wanted the game to be more engaging. Wukong wasn't engaging, he was an auto-play button. Who knows, maybe Mesa will also get hit in the future, but they gotta observe whether or not her 4 can be automated enough. So far she is in an okay place.

8. The point of them designing different frames is for you to interact the game in a different way and unique from each other. For Gauss it's his speed and constant requirement to manage his battery level. For Mesa, it's for you to feel like a gunslinger from those cowboy movies with their pinpoint accuracy. For Wukong? It certainly wasn't for you to let your twin kill enemies for you while you do something else. Far from that. I bet they wanted you to use his stick instead but everyone was too lazy to do that. Plus his stick was terrible.

9. Then you haven't played Gauss enough because he is on top of the list of frames that requires the most attention to play as. His kit provides so much more than go fast, ice blast, fire blast. Did you know he can also strip armor and suck enemies with his 1 with an augment if you ram into a wall? Sure he is a timer frame but his timer is a self buff for your weapons and defenses, not to generate an automated ai to delete enemies for you. Can't say much for Octavia since I also think she needs a hit because of how stupid her gameplay is but that is another matter.

10. If people don't want to stress themselves to play games, then don't play games. Or play other games that relaxes you instead. I don't know, Cookie Clicker like you said? Candy Crush? Tetris? Certainly not a fast paced looter-shooter sci-fi space ninja game. Even from that description alone should tell anyone that Warframe is a game that requires attention.

11. Fine. I admit. I like frames that require effort to play, I don't like frames that can automate the game for you, therefore frames that can do that should be hit with a hammer. There, that should satisfy your biased view on my take.

Mesa is in a fine spot. Not good, but fine. She might get hit in the future, but she is definitely not first priority.

I feel like you're also only targeting Mesa out of spite for some reason since none of my examples of braindead frames seem to be mentioned anywhere in your post.

 

 

[Corvid]

44 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I am not trolling,

Then provide your methodology for determining what is objectively more fun. Until you do that, you've got no ground to stand on and your claims of being scientific remain laughable.

Nobody is trying to argue that literally everything is subjective, by the way, just that some things are, because they are abstract concepts that do not exist without a conscious observer/assessor. If you were as knowledgeable about science as you claim to be, you would know this.

[XaoGarrent]

11 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

Sorry. Your language is too difficult for a grade schooler like me.

I don't think your problem is comprehension.

If I'm being honest, I think it's dishonesty.

I know for a fact that you're aware that standing in one place will not, in fact, progress the vast majority of objectives in the game, even with Wukong's clone, and especially as the game gets higher in level.

I know for a fact you're aware of how Mesa's design forces the player into a less mobile, less active playstyle, and how the vast majority of her abilities are flat as Mesa herself, in regards to their functionality. She's got three buffs and a 4 that turns her into a turret. She's literally designed to be one of the least active or mobile frames in the game. Wukong has an ability that speeds him up, Mesa has one that roots her in place. You literally have to mod Mesa to get the kind of active movement other frames get by default.

I know for a fact that you're aware that almost nobody actually plays the game the way you're claiming they do, even where it works, and that the vast majority of people put in more effort with Wukong than is strictly necessary. ...Either because it speeds things up, or just because it's more neutrally stimulating to play the game that way. I would just say "it's more fun," but I have to phrase things very specifically to preemptively stop people in this thread from trying to project their own subjectivity on me. Fun!

The problem with arguing ridiculous sophistry about a popular frame is that everyone, and I mean everyone, has a good enough sample size just in their own experience to know with a high degree of certainty how people actually play the frame in practice. We're not just arguing over theories and conjecture, Mesa Turrets, while not as popular as they used to be, are seen almost anywhere the frame is, because that is HOW THE FRAME FUNCTIONS.

If a frame being "active" is the standard by which adjustments are made, Mesa should be shot dead by a nerf firing squad, as her kit ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES AN ACTIVE PLAYSTYLE. Wukong can't even begin to compare.

[AzureScion]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know for a fact that you're aware that almost nobody actually plays the game the way you're claiming they do, even where it works, and that the vast majority of people put in more effort with Wukong than is strictly necessary. ...Either because it speeds things up, or just because it's more neutrally stimulating to play the game that way. I would just say "it's more fun," but I have to phrase things very specifically to preemptively stop people in this thread from trying to project their own subjectivity on me. Fun!

Where do you base your assumptions from? What makes you think you know what I see and experience? Just because YOU don't see people play like that (which is somewhere I want to be) doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. I used to see people like this daily. I play in Asia. And judging by your overly complicated language, you're from North America. You wouldn't know what I'm aware of and what I'm not. Stop making assumptions to fit your argument.

3 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know for a fact that you're aware that standing in one place will not, in fact, progress the vast majority of objectives in the game, even with Wukong's clone, and especially as the game gets higher in level.

Again, stop making assumptions. I've seen enough of two-button playstyle Wukongs to last me a lifetime. They are more than capable in finishing many missions by simply leaving the game open, popping a twin, and clouding once they get their objective done. Defense, Mobile Defense, Interception, Survival, Capture, Even the new Void Cascade and Void Armageddon. Again just because you don't see them doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Else they wouldn't ask them to nerf him in the first place.

6 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know for a fact you're aware of how Mesa's design forces the player into a less mobile, less active playstyle, and how the vast majority of her abilities are flat as Mesa herself, in regards to their functionality. She's got three buffs and a 4 that turns her into a turret. She's literally designed to be one of the least active or mobile frames in the game. Wukong has an ability that speeds him up, Mesa has one that roots her in place. You literally have to mod Mesa to get the kind of active movement other frames get by default.

You are now just nitpicking each frames' strengths and weaknesses to support your own biased arguments. By this alone I know you don't play Mesa enough, neither did you read my arguments. Play Mesa more before whining for her nerf. She requires more playstyle than you think she would. If anything then you're being dishonest to yourself believing that Mesa is this one dimensional turret frame that roots herself in one place and not moving for the rest of the game. Play her kit, not just reading from her ability descriptions. Many others tried to describe to you her many weaknesses but you disregarded them for your convenience in making spiteful arguments asking for irrational nerfs.

10 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

The problem with arguing ridiculous sophistry about a popular frame is that everyone, and I mean everyone, has a good enough sample size just in their own experience to know with a high degree of certainty how people actually play the frame in practice. We're not just arguing over theories and conjecture, Mesa Turrets, while not as popular as they used to be, are seen almost anywhere the frame is, because that is HOW THE FRAME FUNCTIONS.

Cements my belief further that you don't actually see many Mesa in action. Nobody roots themselves in place while playing her anymore, the GIF OP provided was an extreme example which gives her the most practical advantage. In actuality, the enemies move in and out cover and her line of sight. 

 

12 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

If a frame being "active" is the standard by which adjustments are made, Mesa should be shot dead by a nerf firing squad, as her kit ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES AN ACTIVE PLAYSTYLE. Wukong can't even begin to compare.

No, it's not about being "active", it's about AUTOMATION. I REPEAT AUTOMATION.

AUTOMATION.

AUTOMATION.

HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE HAVE TO TELL YOU. WUKONG LITERALLY ENABLED PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE GAME WHILE ON A MISSION. STOP TELLING YOURSELF PEOPLE DIDN'T DO THAT. You're being dishonest and disingenuous.

Re-read what everyone said to you on why Wukong/Zarr needed a nerf and Mesa hasn't been hit yet. If anything, you should be the one amping up your comprehension skill and getting rid of dishonesty. 

[XaoGarrent]

3 hours ago, AzureScion said:

AUTOMATION.

You haven't even demonstrated that your preferred buzzword has any significance, regardless of how much you repeat it.

You know what? I have one fact that needs to be made clear for both of the people who previously responded to me.

The burden of proof does not rest on me. I'm not the one making spectacular claims, you are, and no it doesn't matter who or how many people agree with you.

[AzureScion]

29 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

The burden of proof does not rest on me. I'm not the one making spectacular claims, you are, and no it doesn't matter who or how many people agree with you.

It does matter because DE does agree with this. It's their game so ultimately they have the final say.

We were just providing you with THEIR reasoning as to why Wukong/AoE was nerfed and why Mesa wasn't (or at least not yet). We aren't making any claims. We don't need to prove anything.

You are either genuinely ignorant or choose to be ignorant and continue refuting the same arguments with disproven ones again and again. 

Your arguments are made out of bias and pure spite instead of actual and practical reasoning. 

YOU are the one making spectacular claims. Ask literally any Warframe player you see and they'll tell you Wukong is infinitely more automated and required less effort than Mesa.

But sure, continue your endeavor. Maybe one day they'll decide they'd be nice to you and bring the hammer on to Mesa for no practical reason other than to satisfy a very minor portion of playerbase but instead continue to receive severe backlashes.

Until then, have a good day. I'm done having arguments with overly stubborn people.

 

[nslay]

As another reminder, if DE changes or nerfs Peacemaker, it will be one less way to cheese the most boring mission in the game: Defense.

Mesa and Octavia are kind of similar in cheesiness, but they're not currently problematic to pubs in the ways AoE meta was. I bring up Octavia because everyone acknowledges OPness of Octavia and yet nobody seems to care to nerf her.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

9 minutes ago, nslay said:

As another reminder, if DE changes or nerfs Peacemaker, it will be one less way to cheese the most boring mission in the game: Defense.

Mesa and Octavia are kind of similar in cheesiness, but they're not currently problematic to pubs in the ways AoE meta was. I bring up Octavia because everyone acknowledges OPness of Octavia and yet nobody seems to care to nerf her.

Feel it's because even though people know Octavia can be really strong, most people don't play her because her kit is basically just refreshing four cooldowns while teabagging the ground while listening to a 20 second loop of baby shark...

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mesa. She's really good to have for some situations, but I personally almost never run her because she's imho kinda booring to play , but I never really feel like I see too many mesas and they steal all my kills...

 

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Stealth_Cobra said:

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mesa. She's really good to have for some situations, but I personally almost never run her because she's imho kinda booring to play , but I never really feel like I see too many mesas and they steal all my kills...

Yeah, but Defense is more boring. Fight boring with slightly less boring and efficient.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Just now, nslay said:

Yeah, but Defense is more boring. Fight boring with slightly less boring and efficient.

Can't argue with that... Defense is indeed quite booring.