Base Armor & health buff on Warframes

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

All frames should have 40-50% damage reduction with armor for better survivability.

all caster frames have less then 200 armor and could use more health at base as well all of these would be a small tweak before mods

health for frames could also be buffed for example caster focused frames like ember, nova , mag, ect all of these could use more health and armor at base before modding

the big reason i don't use frames like gyre is that having 100 base armor is like a death sentence on some content,

 

now I'd love to take more of my caster frames into hard content like steel path but i know it will get wrecked pretty quick and having more armor/health would help a great deal to help a lot of frames as a whole. 

just as an example I've used Nova/prime for a very long time and stopped playing her since sisters of parvos update and switched to frames like mag/frost/volt to handle corpus

my two main frames i play these days are Lavos & Saryn because of their kits and base stats in health/armor 

 

most of the older frames could use a rework on abilities but i figured focus on suggesting armor and health get buffed.

 

if anyone has input to help I'm open to any extra help.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It already happened. You're not meant to face tank steel path.

[LSG501]

'Most' squishy frames have some sort of crowd control or enemy management.... the problem is that most abilities are being nullified when DE decides to make content 'difficult', which then in turn directs players towards tankier frames.

 

Not sure why you're having issues with nova though, nullstar can do 90% damage reduction and molecular prime can slow down enemies.... and that's before you start playing with helminth abilities...

[Tiltskillet]

Totally agree that squishy frames and tanky frames should be somewhat closer together in ehp.   Not the same.  Not even close to the same.  But closer.

One thing that would help additionally is if shield hp was more tenable as a layer of ehp.  Gyre is a pretty good example.  A lot of her base ehp is in shields, but that in itself isn't useful past low levels.  And higher shields are a disadvantage for cheesegating, which is the most meaningful form of shield tanking.

51 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

if anyone has input to help I'm open to any extra help.

How do you feel about shield gating? 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I think a better idea would be to buff mods that increase armor, so frames that don't have as much armor by default have a method to significantly increase their armor (outside of Arcane Guardian, which is basically mandatory to give the squishier frames any reasonable amount of armor). These frames should be squishy by default, but modding for survivability should allow them to be significantly tankier at the cost of mod space.

Additionally, I think shields should benefit from armor in some way: Maybe they shouldn't get as much damage reduction from your armor, but they should get some amount, so that modding for shield tankiness doesn't completely remove the need for armor. 

Finally, it'd probably be a good idea to rework how shield gating works: There's nothing wrong with depending on shield gating for survival- in fact, it's a playstyle that's pretty active and rewarding- but the playstyle shouldn't encourage you to build for fewer shields (having fewer shields should always be a bad thing).

Ideally, every frame should be able to increase their survivability enough to reliably survive Steel Path levels, whether it be through building health, shields, abilities, shield gating, or some weird mix of several sources.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

21 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Totally agree that squishy frames and tanky frames should be somewhat closer together in ehp.   Not the same.  Not even close to the same.  But closer.

One thing that would help additionally is if shield hp was more tenable as a layer of ehp.  Gyre is a pretty good example.  A lot of her base ehp is in shields, but that in itself isn't useful past low levels.  And higher shields are a disadvantage for cheesegating, which is the most meaningful form of shield tanking.

How do you feel about shield gating? 

honestly i don't really do shield gating and I guess i'm old school i like my frames with higher base stats so won't have to mod much for it.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I think a better idea would be to buff mods that increase armor, so frames that don't have as much armor by default have a method to significantly increase their armor (outside of Arcane Guardian, which is basically mandatory to give the squishier frames any reasonable amount of armor). These frames should be squishy by default, but modding for survivability should allow them to be significantly tankier at the cost of mod space.

Additionally, I think shields should benefit from armor in some way: Maybe they shouldn't get as much damage reduction from your armor, but they should get some amount, so that modding for shield tankiness doesn't completely remove the need for armor. 

Finally, it'd probably be a good idea to rework how shield gating works: There's nothing wrong with depending on shield gating for survival- in fact, it's a playstyle that's pretty active and rewarding- but the playstyle shouldn't encourage you to build for fewer shields (having fewer shields should always be a bad thing).

Ideally, every frame should be able to increase their survivability enough to reliably survive Steel Path levels, whether it be through building health, shields, abilities, shield gating, or some weird mix of several sources.

 

I love doing steel path but for me i can only take a handful of frames in it.

Rhino & Nova Prime are my top 2 used frames and since i got Lavos when it came out i've been enjoying that frame more because the way it plays and it's first ability has a built in heal with damage.

 

I'm not sure what the armor math is to say get to 40% damage reduction if its 200 or more but i do believe more squishy frames if they had 40% damage reduction it would cause less deaths and the tankier frames having base 50% which i think is 300 armor is perfect.

[DeadVoid118]

51 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

'Most' squishy frames have some sort of crowd control or enemy management.... the problem is that most abilities are being nullified when DE decides to make content 'difficult', which then in turn directs players towards tankier frames.

 

Not sure why you're having issues with nova though, nullstar can do 90% damage reduction and molecular prime can slow down enemies.... and that's before you start playing with helminth abilities...

Well, being that Null Star is the only damage reduction ability in the Helminth...

If you don't have some way to keep charges up (via augments), you're going to have issues with Nova's survivability. In my opinion, that's pretty crappy for a damage reduction ability.

[DeadVoid118]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

 

I love doing steel path but for me i can only take a handful of frames in it.

Rhino & Nova Prime are my top 2 used frames and since i got Lavos when it came out i've been enjoying that frame more because the way it plays and it's first ability has a built in heal with damage.

 

I'm not sure what the armor math is to say get to 40% damage reduction if its 200 or more but i do believe more squishy frames if they had 40% damage reduction it would cause less deaths and the tankier frames having base 50% which i think is 300 armor is perfect.

If you like tanky frames, Revenant is a great choice, and any frame with a damage reduction ability + adaptation + umbral vitality (and maybe umbral fiber if you want to go the extra mile) can be practically invincible. Nezha is the king of this with his 90% damage reduction from Warding Halo, but Gara also does very well. You can also survive very well with Zephyr, Mesa (outside of Deimos), Nidus, and Titania.

I do think EHP needs to be looked at. Some attacks do ridiculous amounts of damage you need ridiculous amounts of damage reduction and health to overcome, while other attacks are laughable. It doesn't help that shields are so bad and so easily cut through with toxin damage.

Really, I think the issue would be solved if we had another 90% damage reduction mod that stacked with Adaptation. But, really this is only a problem in lvl 100+ content, which is mostly Steel Path.

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

if anyone has input to help I'm open to any extra help.

Shock Absorbers, Adaptation, Steel Fiber (or its Umbral version) and Vitality... It works, trust me...

Your build however, if its ability focused, will not like the change.

[LSG501]

25 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Well, being that Null Star is the only damage reduction ability in the Helminth...

If you don't have some way to keep charges up (via augments), you're going to have issues with Nova's survivability. In my opinion, that's pretty crappy for a damage reduction ability.

While I wasn't actually referring to helminth abilities in that respect, there are other abilities that can help in survivability, it doesn't have to be damage reduction. 

However I was actually referring to using nova builds that integrate helminth abilities into them, not what nova offers up to others.

 

You also forgot mirage by the way.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

I'm not sure what the armor math is to say get to 40% damage reduction if its 200 or more but i do believe more squishy frames if they had 40% damage reduction it would cause less deaths and the tankier frames having base 50% which i think is 300 armor is perfect.

Damage reduction = (Armor) divided by (Armor + 300). 

200 armor = 40% damage reduction. 300 armor = 50% damage reduction. You got it.

[DeadVoid118]

24 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

While I wasn't actually referring to helminth abilities in that respect, there are other abilities that can help in survivability, it doesn't have to be damage reduction. 

However I was actually referring to using nova builds that integrate helminth abilities into them, not what nova offers up to others.

 

You also forgot mirage by the way.

Mirage's Eclipse, while technically providing a damage reduction, is practically not consistent enough to rely on for that.

My point was that stacking damage reduction is generally the best for staying alive, disregarding pure invincibility. Most armor abilities are laughable in comparison, and healing abilities won't save you from a burst of damage. You can use those abilities to help, sure, but it's not comparable to a Nezha with Null Star, and never will be. While you probably don't need Null Star on Nezha, if you somehow are still having survivability issues nothing would compare without being invincible.

[Leqesai]

No frame needs their stats modified like the TC is suggesting. We were just given Archon Shards which can offset any perceived issues with the frame's base stats.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

honestly i don't really do shield gating and I guess i'm old school i like my frames with higher base stats so won't have to mod much for it.

In that case you can help squishier frames a lot through some combination of CC, health mods, and armor mods.  They won't derive as much raw benefit from the latter, but it's still enough to make a significant difference.   It's pretty extreme, but my most used Banshee is triple umbra and it helps a lot.

I don't think you need to go that far though. I do basically the same thing with other Banshee builds that are  dual umbra or just regular Vitality.  Although Rolling Guard, jumping around a lot, and the incidental shield gating this brings are enough for me in short SP runs.

17 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

No frame needs their stats modified like the TC is suggesting. We were just given Archon Shards which can offset any perceived issues with the frame's base stats.

Yeesh.  Two things.  That's pretty late game.  Second, where do we sign up to have shards "given" to us?  :P  It's going to be quite a slog for somebody who missed that giveaway and wants to shore up a few squishy frames.

Just like Helminth injections before it, it bothers me that the shard system will be used to wave away problems with very shoddy balance.  I'm glad the workaround exists, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything more than a bandaid, like bandaid subsumes and bandaid augments.

[Leqesai]

10 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeesh.  Two things.  That's pretty late game.  Second, where do we sign up to have shards "given" to us?  :P  It's going to be quite a slog for somebody who missed that giveaway and wants to shore up a few squishy frames.

Just like Helminth injections before it, it bothers me that the shard system will be used to wave away problems with very shoddy balance.  I'm glad the workaround exists, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything more than a bandaid, like bandaid subsumes and bandaid augments.

The core game is built around the frame stats as they are. I've not had issues in Steel Path with many frames that aren't already offset by the tools available to us prior to shards being introduced. 

If the reasoning behind giving frames higher stats is to make them Steel Path viable then it invalidates the original star chart. The only way to make frames better without throwing the regular star chart balance out the window is through stuff like shards, helminth and mode-specific modifiers from arcanes/mods.

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Mirage's Eclipse, while technically providing a damage reduction, is practically not consistent enough to rely on for that.

My point was that stacking damage reduction is generally the best for staying alive, disregarding pure invincibility. Most armor abilities are laughable in comparison, and healing abilities won't save you from a burst of damage. You can use those abilities to help, sure, but it's not comparable to a Nezha with Null Star, and never will be. While you probably don't need Null Star on Nezha, if you somehow are still having survivability issues nothing would compare without being invincible.

Assuming DE hasn't blocked CC abilities on the enemies you're playing against that can work just as well as damage reduction... if they're not attacking you, you're not taking damage.

I've got a banshee built around silence and gloom for example and that's more than happy on the steel path I've played, but then I'm not trying to get to level 9999 enemies etc. 

Wouldn't mind a little more diversity in the helminth options though, just for variety sake if nothing else.

 

 

Archon shards are an unnecessary power creep which will in turn cause issues later down the line when 'balance' comes up again.... how do you balance for those that do have them AND those that don't have them etc.

[DeadVoid118]

20 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Assuming DE hasn't blocked CC abilities on the enemies you're playing against that can work just as well as damage reduction... if they're not attacking you, you're not taking damage.

I've got a banshee built around silence and gloom for example and that's more than happy on the steel path I've played, but then I'm not trying to get to level 9999 enemies etc. 

Wouldn't mind a little more diversity in the helminth options though, just for variety sake if nothing else.

CC isn't survivability, nor should it be. Overguard makes sure CC isn't survivability.

The Banshee build you're talking about almost certainly relies on killing Eximus units quickly to not die, if not shield-gating/rolling guard. Which is fair, but not really the point.

29 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Archon shards are an unnecessary power creep which will in turn cause issues later down the line when 'balance' comes up again.... how do you balance for those that do have them AND those that don't have them etc.

When have we had balance? DE has never had any inkling of the tiniest notion of what balance could even possibly be. They're not about to start now.

[Bratty_Child]

They didn't made Steel Path just so playerbase can use it as yardstick for player to bring it up in everything.

I do feel they need to introduce more flat armor and health mods that's useful. At least people can decide what baseline of tankiness they can forgo. While shield gating is powerful and all, its not a survivability you'd rely laid back.

[LSG501]

9 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

CC isn't survivability, nor should it be. Overguard makes sure CC isn't survivability.

In your opinion, in mine it's a different way of surviving.

9 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

The Banshee build you're talking about almost certainly relies on killing Eximus units quickly to not die, if not shield-gating/rolling guard. Which is fair, but not really the point.

Except (unless DE changed it recently) silence works with eximus as well, so yes you need to kill them first still (which was DE's intention) but they're CC'd like other enemies.

9 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

When have we had balance? DE has never had any inkling of the tiniest notion of what balance could even possibly be. They're not about to start now.

They keep cropping up 'balance' as the reason for nerfs/changes from time to time, yes it never works but that's because DE keeps adding in more power creep....

[Birdframe_Prime]

Armour has always been a thing with diminishing returns as you go up the levels. If you're relying on it to keep you alive, then you're not going to have a good time.

Frames like Nova can be tankier than frames like Lavos and Saryn, although the two of them do have self-healing options, which does make them more survivable overall.

To be honest, though, we need to have a shake-up of what EHP affecting mods, like Armour, actually do. Maybe a more viable function would be to switch them to straight up Damage Reduction, which would make them fair to both Shields and Health. If shields, which can regen, get the same exact treatment from (what is now) an 'Armour' mod, we can have a massive boost to EHP and also actively encourage players to mod more Shields too. Less need for Shield Gating if we have a genuine Effective Health Pool over the top of our Health instead.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2022-09-27 at 8:35 PM, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

if anyone has input to help I'm open to any extra help

How durable frames are differs by orders of magnitudes - technically more even, as some are quite literally unkillable. Even if you gave them equal stats, some have 95% damage reduction which would make them 20x as tough as others.

If you wanted to bring some balance into this equation, you'd have to change not only base stats, but also abilities, and enemy damage. This is not going to happen for 3 reasons: It's a big task, DE is notoriously slow, and DE simply doesn't do anything resembling fine balance.

If one wanted to balance player survivability, the ONLY feasable way is to make enemies regular attack damage negligible, and give them telegraphed special attacks that bypass damage reduction, abilities, and immunities (and deal % damage instead of flat values).

[selig_fay]

I would limit the effect of armor to 50% dr cap. Then everyone will be in the same situations until it comes to armor reduction mechanics. Everything is fair) 

It seems to me that people have forgotten what a melee block is and want to do nothing more.

[Tiltskillet]

23 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Except (unless DE changed it recently) silence works with eximus as well, so yes you need to kill them first still (which was DE's intention) but they're CC'd like other enemies.

Silence shuts off the activated components of eximus abilities.  However it doesn't stun them through Overguard.  

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

Sorry i haven't been on hurricane Ian came to visit had no power for 5 days