Standing - Whoever designed the system hates us

[FateOfNines]

https://imgur.com/MTedeGt

Imagine coming back to the game after several years, going to catch up on content, doing the rep grind from rank 0 with a faction because you want an amp, knowing that you have to grind out a few factions to get it, thinking "today is the day I'm done with these guys specifically," and find out you're locked from being finished by a terrible rep system for another full day over 535 rep, and even if you went and got an MR rank, you'd still be short 35 rep.

Someone hold my hand and tell me it's gonna be okay, because I'm about to slam my face through one of my monitors.

[SpicyDinosaur]

How is that supposed to be solved though? That's always a possibility. And it's already solved in 24 hours maximum time. I don't think they were thinking of you when they designed the system. I assume that's a joke and you are just ranting, which is fine. But if you have ideas for how it should work that would prevent this, I'd be curious to hear them!

[MaxTunnerX]

As much as I dont see this case as a problem, the topic title is actually correct. Maybe hate is not the right word for it, but yeah, the system is rigged and limited so we cant have fun and progress naturally. Its just the devs policy to ensure suffering at every grind you do somehow and everyone knows why.

[FateOfNines]

34 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

How is that supposed to be solved though? That's always a possibility. And it's already solved in 24 hours maximum time. I don't think they were thinking of you when they designed the system. I assume that's a joke and you are just ranting, which is fine. But if you have ideas for how it should work that would prevent this, I'd be curious to hear them!

You're correct. And this is more of a vent and in a joking tone (considering the headbutting a monitor bit) however, it is an actual issue. Tomorrow I >could< log in again and get the remaining measly bit of rep required to move forward with my daily gaming life, however that's only >if< I log in to do it after hitting a frustrating situation such as this, which a Rep grind system is supposed to help urge people to come back daily and play, however, an occurrence like this can cause people to not return. Granted if this was a subscription based game that'd actually be an issue, but it's free to play so it's not a concerning one.

That out of the way; this is content from 2018. Since this content was released, the entire online commerce system has changed, we went through covid lock downs, and a lot of things have just flat out altered our everyday life. You know what hasn't really changed at all during that time? The rep system for that content. Usually when a game has content that has become aged by a few years, the developers take some time to go back and make it more accessible. They lower requirements, etc. Think of WoW for instance. When Legion released you needed a month+ grind to unlock a new race. Current days you still need to grind to unlock that special race, but the time is DRASTICALLY reduced. I'm talking about a couple of days. They make it still something that you have to put a little work into, but the content is years old and not a major talking point anymore, people hated the grind to begin with, and now it's simply more accessible which is much more reasonable.

This, however, is several years old content for a part of the game that no one enjoys (rep grinding) and gating it behind actual time is astonishing to me. This is essentially a punishment for not playing the game when it was released, in my eyes. Let me tell you how going about doing these bounties alone (because no one else does SP bounties here, but I did because 5k rep+ booster for completion) is boring and I have literally fallen asleep while moving across the map in my archwing several times. I have to grind these guys to Rep rank 5, turn around, and go to rep rank 4 for the group that is locked behind this one. Why? For content from 2018, why?

All that in mind my suggestion would be : Implement a reasonable system that either allows increased daily turn in for content older than a couple of years, or reduce the required rep for older content. Then, even if a "meta" item is sold by that vendor at a certain rep level, simply increase the cost of that item just a smidge or, better yet, let the player market value the item in real time and adjust. Either way there's no feasible reason for content from 5 years ago to still require this kind of time sink and locked behind a daily gate. Every game has gates like this, but they don't keep the same requirement from several years ago. This is old, stale, content that is not enjoyable. And it leads to situations like this where a returning player encounters this and thinks " Well maybe this is why I quit the first time. Guess I'll go play FFXIV instead."

[trst]

You know what your daily cap is, how much rep you currently have, and can see (or look up) how much is needed for the remaining ranks. You could have known well ahead of time that you'd be short. And in the days leading up to this point you could have tried to rush another MR rank so that this specifically didn't happen.

 

As for why the system itself works the way it does: it's justified gameplay padding. If DE didn't drag out rep grinds with a time wall, or other similar system, then a considerable portion of players would have most of the game finished within days. Followed by them then complaining about the lack of things to do.

It's happened repeatedly throughout the game's life. The worst of which was the introduction of Focus Trees which had no cap on release and saw some players grinding out millions of rep within days. The community has simply proven that without being slowed down they'll play in a way that's detrimental to both themselves and the game. Thus we're stuck with systems like this.

[FateOfNines]

9 minutes ago, trst said:

You know what your daily cap is, how much rep you currently have, and can see (or look up) how much is needed for the remaining ranks. You could have known well ahead of time that you'd be short. And in the days leading up to this point you could have tried to rush another MR rank so that this specifically didn't happen.

 

I respect your response. And in no way am I being argumentative; I'm just a player venting frustration about a system that works horribly when compared to other games and is very evident in how much it's disliked based on a simple google search of the playerbases average outlook on the system. That being said - I'm specifically talking about Older content. Content that is aged and stale.

Also - when a rep system requires me to sit down and do math and go "Okay I'm rank 0. If I add up this much and divide it by days against the allotted daily allowance it'll take me this many days exactly to do this grind" then that rep system is acting as a punishment and not a race with a reward at the end. The Zariman questline and rep grind took me a substantially shorter amount of time, I found it enjoyable, and STILL go back there because I like the content there. So why is 2018 content making me feel like I'm being punished for logging in every day and grinding the rep? Most games rely on it's good, captivating content to bring players back. Why does Warframe feel like it relies on "I'll never get this done if I don't log in every day and focus entirely on this one obstacle" to keep logging in? It may just be me here, but that feels like a huge fundamental problem.

But that's all. I'm just a frustrated player venting about an experience knowing damn well there will never be any adjustments made and the venting will lead nowhere. It's really as simple as that.

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

Reputation should only be locked while its new. Theres new shiny objects and the daily rep limits are unneeded for their original purpose: Stopping you from going through the new content in a single sitting. 
You could easily drop the rep cap for syndicates, Deimos, Fortuna, and Cetus while maintaining it for the Holdfasts, Vox solaris, and the Quills. 

Or change the rep cap to only matter for objectives/bounties so you can grind for rep consumables and not feel like its a waste.
 

[trst]

32 minutes ago, FateOfNines said:

I respect your response. And in no way am I being argumentative; I'm just a player venting frustration about a system that works horribly when compared to other games and is very evident in how much it's disliked based on a simple google search of the playerbases average outlook on the system. That being said - I'm specifically talking about Older content. Content that is aged and stale.

Also - when a rep system requires me to sit down and do math and go "Okay I'm rank 0. If I add up this much and divide it by days against the allotted daily allowance it'll take me this many days exactly to do this grind" then that rep system is acting as a punishment and not a race with a reward at the end. The Zariman questline and rep grind took me a substantially shorter amount of time, I found it enjoyable, and STILL go back there because I like the content there. So why is 2018 content making me feel like I'm being punished for logging in every day and grinding the rep? Most games rely on it's good, captivating content to bring players back. Why does Warframe feel like it relies on "I'll never get this done if I don't log in every day and focus entirely on this one obstacle" to keep logging in? It may just be me here, but that feels like a huge fundamental problem.

But that's all. I'm just a frustrated player venting about an experience knowing damn well there will never be any adjustments made and the venting will lead nowhere. It's really as simple as that.

Of course players don't like it but that doesn't change why it's there and that reason doesn't change just because the content is old. Without the caps players would be rushing to finishing the game even faster and hitting the point "veteran" players are of perpetually waiting for the next update.

Also with how open world rep grinds work it's actually your choice to spend every day grinding it. You could have spent some time gathering fish or gems and been able to just turn those in each day for your cap. Then all you'd have had to do was run the content for the rank up sacrifice. There's also the fastest method of a handful of conservation captures per day.

And daily/weekly content limits is pretty common especially with MMO/Live Service type games. And other games that rely on ongoing player activity also employ their own padding to drag out content. Be it with daily limits, rare item grinds, RNG driven grinds, durability/resource sink systems to slow progress, difficulty spikes, etc. And all of it exists for the purpose of slowing players from "finishing" these games and is often to prevent players from playing unhealthy amounts.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

yeah, being short on standing sucks,.. but let's face it, if there were no caps, you would be grinding like a madman, because everybody would, and then many of those same people would have the audacity and lack of self-awareness to say "there's nothing to do OMG", after rushing through all the content that syndicate has to offer in a day or less.

the caps are there for a reason and they aren't going anywhere, so as harsh as it sounds, deal with it. 

 

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

yeah, being short on standing sucks,.. but let's face it, if there were no caps, you would be grinding like a madman, because everybody would, and then many of those same people would have the audacity and lack of self-awareness to say "there's nothing to do OMG", after rushing through all the content that syndicate has to offer in a day or less.

the caps are there for a reason and they aren't going anywhere, so as harsh as it sounds, deal with it. 

 

The caps are there so you dont burn out on NEW content, and thats always been the case. The cap is global because DE simply never changed it.

Syndicates require a balancing act, and could easily be 'balanced' by increasing rep reductions... But also syndicates should not even be a factor in this discussion. No one grinds syndicates for content, theyre an island for a handful of ability mods at this point. 

Gravimags being locked behind a whopping FIFTEEN reputation ranks is super BS of a grind as well; It made sense when profit taker was new to limit it like that... But not anymore. NOt when that content is a means to an end, not the end. Especially not when the Sirocco amp is as capable as a good kit amp. 

Lets also not forget that arguably one of the most important upgrades in the game - helminith - is locked behind rank 5 with deimos. Progression is halted if you dont have helminith, because content like steel path (which is most definitely required for meta progression at the moment) can be nigh impossible to do without access to subsumed abilities unless you have some broken meta combo with insane mods.
 

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , (PSN)ARC_Paroe 说:

The caps are there so you dont burn out on NEW content, and thats always been the case. The cap is global because DE simply never changed it.

Syndicates require a balancing act, and could easily be 'balanced' by increasing rep reductions... But also syndicates should not even be a factor in this discussion. No one grinds syndicates for content, theyre an island for a handful of ability mods at this point. 

Gravimags being locked behind a whopping FIFTEEN reputation ranks is super BS of a grind as well; It made sense when profit taker was new to limit it like that... But not anymore. NOt when that content is a means to an end, not the end. Especially not when the Sirocco amp is as capable as a good kit amp. 

The caps are fine. You can continuing playing tomorrow when the cap reset, right? 

......right?

1小时前 , (PSN)ARC_Paroe 说:

Lets also not forget that arguably one of the most important upgrades in the game - helminith - is locked behind rank 5 with deimos. Progression is halted if you dont have helminith, because content like steel path (which is most definitely required for meta progression at the moment) can be nigh impossible to do without access to subsumed abilities unless you have some broken meta combo with insane mods.
 

Lol, any frame with armor stripping can steam roll SP without helminth. Xaku can even steam roll SP Circuit using his 2, 3, 4 alone with a randomized loadout. 

If you insist on not touching Deimos or any syndicate, use Nyx or Nekros.

[EdinaMonsoon]

it's not that bad when compared to the deimos token system

i really really hate that token system...

[RichardKam]

37分钟前 , EdinaMonsoon 说:

it's not that bad when compared to the deimos token system

i really really hate that token system...

Token system might be bad, but nothing beats the malicious design of Fortuna interlocking syndicate progression between Vox Solaris and Solaris United. 

I firmly believe the system was deliberately designed just to troll the players. The item required to rank up is locked behind that specific rank. The toroid drop rate is abysmally small, while the guarantee toroid drop is either locked behind the max rank of another syndicate, or is soft locked behind a biweekly time limited mission. 

Because of that, I refused to rank up these two syndicates, and determined to buy everything through selling relics for plat. If I were given the choice, I would liberate the entire origin system specifically except Venus just to let everyone in Fortuna suffers under Narmer forever.

[trst]

6 hours ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

it's not that bad when compared to the deimos token system

i really really hate that token system...

What's wrong with that token system?

It's the fastest open world to rank, lets you bank standing via bounties, and the place is designed where you don't even need any of the side activities to rank up. Plus the individual tokens have few uses so the most annoying ones to get are almost entirely optional while the others are only needed in small finite quantities.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Just be glad DE has increase the base Standing cap over the years. Try getting 100k Standing when you have a daily cap of 5000 only all because you're only MR5.

[EdinaMonsoon]

26 minutes ago, trst said:

What's wrong with that token system?

It's the fastest open world to rank, lets you bank standing via bounties, and the place is designed where you don't even need any of the side activities to rank up. Plus the individual tokens have few uses so the most annoying ones to get are almost entirely optional while the others are only needed in small finite quantities.

having a set amount every few hours and there still not being a "buy all" option, there's a lot of QOL still missing

3 years later and still don't have enough grandma tokens for all the captura scenes because it moves at a snails pace

i visit every vendor each time i visit, collect what tokens i can and only end up with 3-5 grandma tokens obtained each time

[bad4youLT]

The Standing system is result of the Viver Gate drama .

Long story short - the first iteration of standing system had no daily cap but the catch was that you earned standing at the snail pace , and no this isn't some metaphor , were today you can easily get standing in thousands in just few minutes , back in first iteration completing mission resulting in Two or even One digit numbers of standing .

It didn't take long for community to figure out the best possible way to maximize standing gains which took place in node on Eris named Viver ( hence the name Viver Gate ) , it was Corpus Interception mission ( back in the day Interception missions worked differently ) and revolved around Three specific frames , Excalibur , Mag and Trinity .

The tactic was simple but incredibly efficient , only two towers were captured to prolong Interception as much as possible while still being able to win round , Trinity EV build supplied energy to Excalibur and Mag while this two spammed Radial Javelin and Shield Polarize which shredded Corpus units in high speed , the faster the killing was the faster mobs spawned and the faster affinity was gain for Standing .

This tactic was so efficient that people literally , and do mean literally managed to max out their Syndicates in a day as appose to DE's plan of "long term investment" . This let to DE lose their bananas , the Excalibur , Mag and Trinity received some of the most heavy nerfs in entire Warframes history , they were so bad that those frames were basically unplayable and Viver node was changed from Corpus Intercept to just Infested mission .

The community backlash was intense to say the least , few days later DE came out of the hiding , apologizing for their rush actions , reverted the nerfs to Excalibur , Mag , Trinity and redone the standing system to what it is today , rather then gaining any standing at the snail pace the players would have a more generous gain rates but at the cost of daily standing cap .

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

It's annoying but I prefer a timed system over people completing it all in a single day and getting infinite relics and arcanes to devalue the market.

[FadeToNull]

21 hours ago, trst said:

You know what your daily cap is, how much rep you currently have, and can see (or look up) how much is needed for the remaining ranks. You could have known well ahead of time that you'd be short. And in the days leading up to this point you could have tried to rush another MR rank so that this specifically didn't happen.

Bad OP! You should have rushed.

21 hours ago, trst said:

It's happened repeatedly throughout the game's life. The worst of which was the introduction of Focus Trees which had no cap on release and saw some players grinding out millions of rep within days. The community has simply proven that without being slowed down they'll play in a way that's detrimental to both themselves and the game.

But take it slow! Going fast is detrimental.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I can sympathise with the frustration. Its not so bad in my opinion though all things considered. 

Like to myself, a lot of Warframe, is an individual player learning to understand the various systems, and learning what they find fun, and what they find frustrating, and learning how to maximise the fun part, whilst minimising the frustration part, whilst also understanding and acknowledging why such systems exist, even if they may disagree over those reasons. Like for myself, the Standing limitation systems, didn't really bother me too much, because when I learned of them, I was in a mostly neutral state, just trying to learn, and I decided to pace myself and not stress too much, about the limits and all that. 

Like there is so much to do in Warframe, sometimes its more efficient to plan a bit before hand about what I want to do, to avoid certain frustrations. I think being smart about how you play and avoiding too much frustration is really important as far as actually enjoying the game. Of course Warframe is also a game about... there can be conflicting elements, because sometimes in order to get certain fun experiences, you may have to do "less fun" experiences, by your subjective tastes, so you might also want to try find ways to try make the most of that. Like before a pity system was introduced to Liches, you could do 130 missions before the Kuva weapon you wanted appeared. I really like Kuva Liches, but not the potential bad luck of actually acquiring the exact weapon in the first stage. I would use those missions as an opportunity to level weapons I didn't like, test different Warframes, and listen to a Podcast too. Thankfully that system was changed, and some people might say "well just don't do 130 missions, do something else" and thats also pretty good advice, but I also know myself well enough, that the other things I did (multitasking different objectives and goals, plus a podcast) made the "frustrating thing" less so and manageable. 

So understanding the standing system may frustrate you, maybe try think of ways to mitigate that. Like doing them solo does suck, but always people willing to help. Also some Resources? Annoying to farm, but really really soon there is going to be a 2x Resource Weekend... that will stack with your store brought Resource Boosters. Super opportune time to do certain open world activities (Fortuna especially), you will get way way more resources potentially saving a lot of time too, greatly increasing efficiency. 

[SneakyErvin]

I'm used to it, I've never really even given it a thought in WF since I came here from MMOs where it is a norm. The only part of the standing I dislike is that we cannot max all syndicates at once.