To Sell or Not To Sell, or Too Early to Tell?

[AceOfCayde]

This topic is about the Duviri randomizer specifically in regards to the Steel Path Circuit and improving the odds of getting gear that you enjoy. If you love the randomizer for SPC, that's great, enjoy! This discussion is not about whether you like or dislike the randomizer, it's about the efficacy vs risk of a specific method some players have resorted to in order to improve their enjoyment of the game mode.

 

The Question: For someone who does not enjoy the weighted randomization for Steel Path, is it worthwhile to sell the excess gear that I've kept for years because I enjoy using them for non-steel-path gameplay in order to reduce my pool of owned gear, thereby increasing the odds that I'll get something moderately Steel Path viable until the decrees kick in?

The Theory: DE has stated that the Duviri randomizer is guaranteed to give you at least one piece of gear that you do not own (per slot?). Beyond that, however, the randomizer seems to be weighted towards giving you several options that you do not own. It also seems that you will get at least one piece of gear in each slot that you do own. So, theoretically, if you narrow either of these categories (owned or unowned) significantly enough, you can effectively guarantee yourself to get one of a handful of weapons and Warframes in that pool. This means, if your goal is to narrow the options to something that performs better in Steel Path, you would want to narrow your pool of owned gear by selling off anything you don't want to use in Steel Path, because owned gear will allow you to use your forma and mod investments, whereas narrowing your unowned pool for the same purpose would restrict you to using default mod loadouts for that gear. Several players have already sold off large portions of their arsenal and succeeded at improving their loadout options by doing so.

The Risk: Duviri is still a very new update. DE has so far only made significant changes in the form of bug fixes, and has not yet made major changes based on feedback. If you sell off the majority of your arsenal in order to narrow the pool of owned gear and guarantee yourself better loadout options, you run the risk of future changes to the RNG system actually putting you at a disadvantage, while also being guaranteed to have limited your options for content outside of the Duviri update.

An Example: There are several weapons and Warframes that I've kept for a long time because I enjoy them or am nostalgic, but prefer not to use them in Steel Path due to their stats or mechanics making them underperformers and a general burden in Steel Path. To name more than a few: Banshee, Styanax, Hydroid, Nyx, Phage, Quanta, Grakata, Sonicor, Castanas, Hirudo, Lecta, Dark Dagger, and Fang. I've kept all of these in one variant or another because I have fond memories of them, and choose to use them in normal star chart content even if they aren't the most efficient. While most of them can be made half-decent for steel path with significant enough investment, I don't want to use them in normal Steel Path and don't see that as a worthwhile investment for a single game mode. So, to implement the above methodology, I would have to sell these items to improve my chances of getting things I actually do want to use in Steel Path Circuit - with the risk above of making that effort futile still very much present.

My Answer (Opinion): No, it is not worth it. I do not believe that enjoyment of the greater game should be sacrificed in order to improve your odds in one specific new game mode that is still subject to change. If you really, truly hate the randomizer for Steel Path Circuit, you should not sacrifice your arsenal for it, even if you knew for a fact that no changes would be made that would to reduce the effectiveness of this choice. If the randomizer is not something you want to work with, your best option is to ignore it entirely. Play the parts of the game you like, and if changes are made to make Steel Path Circuit more palatable to you in the future, jump back into it when that time comes. I understand that this means foregoing the Incarnon Adapters, but I firmly believe that no new toy, no matter how shiny, is worth sacrificing your enjoyment of the rest of the game. Add to that the risk that such efforts may be made futile in the future, and you'll just be hurting yourself in the long run.

 

So that's it. I'm curious what other people think, and if you think the risk is worth the reward, what makes it worth it to you? Please remember this discussion is not about "randomizer good vs randomizer bad", it is about the risk vs reward of this specific method that several players have already implemented in order to make the new game mode(s) more palatable to their specific preferences.

[cute_moth.npc]

I am one of those who sold a lot of stuff, you seem to have thought it out pretty well?

With fully unlocked selections though intrinsics, there are always 3 owned Warframes out of 5 choices when you start a new run. I've checked numerous times now and this does not seem to vary.

Weapons will vary more, and even if you own nothing but "good stuff" in categories like pistols for example, the game can give you all unowned pistols because your owned choices all landed in other categories.

TL;DR, Warframe selection is more reliable than weapon selection, although the effects of trimming your weapon selection are still pretty noticeable.

I personally feel really comfortable doing this sell off because I would like to underscore that I did not sell things with *just doing the circuit* in mind.

For example, I kept Ivara, Gyre and a few others knowing they might still show up but I really like Ivara and Gyre in other game modes. I didn't get rid of everything I liked just to complete Circuit. The randomizer is actually kind of working for me now because it might not give me my "comfy" picks but it's still giving me things I think are fun, so I'm branching out into frames I like but don't usually spend a ton of time with.

I got rid of Atlas, Mesa, Hildryn, Saryn, and around 12 others because of a simple truth:

I just haven't ever liked playing them. I think they're boring, kludgey, overpowered or whatever depending on which frame it is. If they reverted how the RNG worked tomorrow and this didn't benefit me anymore, I actually wouldn't be upset about their loss either way. 

I agree that if there's something you like but don't want to use in the circuit then you shouldn't sell it.

Personally, I feel like getting rid of things that I'm confident I won't use one way or another isn't really a risk. It's just that before, I didn't really have any motivation to go "clear out the trash" until now, so it's just an incentive to do some spring cleaning ^^;

[MqToasty]

Without knowing exactly how the randomizer works, I would say it is simply unwise to make arsenal changes due to anecdotal evidence.  Even if one slot is guaranteed to come from your arsenal, unless you kept everything and yet only have viable builds for a small handful of items, the odds increase is probably not worth it.  Unless and until we learn that all but one item is guaranteed to come from your arsenal (which is absolutely not the case right now), I will not be making any arsenal decisions due to the randomizer.

[TARINunit9]

Having sold all my old gear years ago to free up inventory slots: it barely matters. Your viability in Steel Path Circuit doesn't depend on how many "owned" or "unowned" weapons it gives you. It depends on whether you get stuck with an assault rifle or not

The Default Mods on gear is usually fine. Default Mods + Decrees will make any weapon as good as it can be. The problem is, for some weapons (assault rifles, Bronco, and Mutalist Cernos) "as good as it can be" is still pretty terrible. This is especially apparently when stuff like "bonus heat damage on melee" or "melee attacks hit twice" makes even the weakest of melee weapons into absolute pain trains.

Basically it doesn't really matter that I crafted and sold my Bolto years ago, the build I could come up with it isn't any better than the Default, and I'd be stuck with it regardless 

[AceOfCayde]

5 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I am one of those who sold a lot of stuff, you seem to have thought it out pretty well?

With fully unlocked selections though intrinsics, there are always 3 owned Warframes out of 5 choices when you start a new run. I've checked numerous times now and this does not seem to vary.

Weapons will vary more, and even if you own nothing but "good stuff" in categories like pistols for example, the game can give you all unowned pistols because your owned choices all landed in other categories.

TL;DR, Warframe selection is more reliable than weapon selection, although the effects of trimming your weapon selection are still pretty noticeable.

I personally feel really comfortable doing this sell off because I would like to underscore that I did not sell things with *just doing the circuit* in mind.

For example, I kept Ivara, Gyre and a few others knowing they might still show up but I really like Ivara and Gyre in other game modes. I didn't get rid of everything I liked just to complete Circuit. The randomizer is actually kind of working for me now because it might not give me my "comfy" picks but it's still giving me things I think are fun, so I'm branching out into frames I like but don't usually spend a ton of time with.

I got rid of Atlas, Mesa, Hildryn, Saryn, and around 12 others because of a simple truth:

I just haven't ever liked playing them. I think they're boring, kludgey, overpowered or whatever depending on which frame it is. If they reverted how the RNG worked tomorrow and this didn't benefit me anymore, I actually wouldn't be upset about their loss either way. 

I agree that if there's something you like but don't want to use in the circuit then you shouldn't sell it.

Personally, I feel like getting rid of things that I'm confident I won't use one way or another isn't really a risk. It's just that before, I didn't really have any motivation to go "clear out the trash" until now, so it's just an incentive to do some spring cleaning ^^;

That seems like a very measured approach, and leaves you with minimal risk. I'm definitely due for some spring cleaning myself 😄 I'm glad you made choices based on your overall enjoyment and not one specific game mode.

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Without knowing exactly how the randomizer works, I would say it is simply unwise to make arsenal changes due to anecdotal evidence.  Even if one slot is guaranteed to come from your arsenal, unless you kept everything and yet only have viable builds for a small handful of items, the odds increase is probably not worth it.  Unless and until we learn that all but one item is guaranteed to come from your arsenal (which is absolutely not the case right now), I will not be making any arsenal decisions due to the randomizer.

I agree.

 

Also, the more someone has, the less it makes sense to dump stuff. Personally I would rather dump forma into lesser used gear than get rid of stuff. It's a long road to getting every frame and weapon what we might call "circuit stable" but the grind is what I enjoy.

[Corvid]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It depends on whether you get stuck with an assault rifle or not

The Default Mods on gear is usually fine. Default Mods + Decrees will make any weapon as good as it can be. The problem is, for some weapons (assault rifles, Bronco, and Mutalist Cernos) "as good as it can be" is still pretty terrible.

Aren't ARs among the best weapons to combo with Persistent Attrition?

[EdinaMonsoon]

intrinsics, decrees and warframe choice will matter more than weapons, imo

[PublikDomain]

44 minutes ago, AceOfCayde said:

My Answer (Opinion): No, it is not worth it. I do not believe that enjoyment of the greater game should be sacrificed in order to improve your odds in one specific new game mode that is still subject to change.

Basically this. It's too early to tell what changes will come in the future and like Toasty says it doesn't make any sense to change your arsenal based on anecdotes. Especially not for one game mode you'll be done with in a few months anyways once all the one-time rewards are collected.

Though if we're talking about min-maxing the RNG today, if you're a veteran player with more resources than sense (like me) then it doesn't really hurt to just craft all the stuff you're missing. It doesn't seem to me that the guaranteed-unowned slots pull from the entire range of weapons (IE I don't own a Chakhurr and it's never shown up), so craft everything you're missing or previously sold and if it shows up as a pick claim it from your Foundry. Then it'll go into your owned pool where it'll be less likely overall to show up. If it still shows up, just use the default config you'd have had to use anyways.

[cute_moth.npc]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Aren't ARs among the best weapons to combo with Persistent Attrition?

I think so..

I've been shocked at how well the decrees can interact with some weapons that are normally weak, especially fast firing ones like machine guns and machine pistols.

Dex Furis for example is really nothing special outside of this game mode, but persistent attrition, contagion and bombastine's all together means it can melt Thrax and crowds with ease. They start weaker than big boom weapons but really shine as you get more decrees. 

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Aren't ARs among the best weapons to combo with Persistent Attrition?

Which one is that?

[trst]

It's all wildly irrelevant anyways.

If you're playing solo you only need one piece of semi decent gear to get the ball rolling while it makes absolutely no difference what you get if you're in a group. Since pretty much everything will obliterate enemies with the default mods once you start getting some Decree scaling. Really the only thing that matters when it comes to your loadout is how survivable your frame is and/or if it's good at Defense.

So when it comes to weapons it really makes no difference if you go and sell everything you don't use/think is trash. Likewise it makes no difference to go and build everything in the game to mod them for the mode. Do what you want and stop worrying about Circuit loadouts.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

Hi

i started the original topic here: 

 

and did the upfront research with people like cute_moth.npc and a couple others trying and confirming.

TLDR

3 of the 5 warframe choices are confirmed from your own inventory every time, this can be 4, but its always 3

minimum 2 weapons but on average 4 weapons (possibly more) are also pulled from your inventory.

 

i ended up slimming down to 20ish primaries, 9ish secondaries, and 20ish melee's along with 4 frames (umbra included reward weapons you cannot sell to :C) and get amazing weapons and frames every time, steel path is a blast and even after i finish my circuit for the week i go through to help carry the poor bastards at the mercy of RNG XD.

its alot of fun when you get to use what you want, feels like a better sanctuary onslaught. 

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

ill admit i was waiting to slim my inventory more until the last prime time, i was curious if they were going to say or do anything about this.

(if its possible, why not just make it a default option for people that dont want to sell their stuff?)

they in fact said nothing.

so i sold more stuff and really narrowed it down, essentially only stuff i really wanted to use, and nothing more. but like i said, it is alot of fun to play the mode now. 

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Which one is that?

Enemy becomes 10% more susceptible to damage with every hit (with no upper limit as far as I can tell). Since Assault Rifles generally have a high rate of fire, they can apply a large number of stacks quickly.

[TARINunit9]

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Enemy becomes 10% more susceptible to damage with every hit (with no upper limit as far as I can tell). Since Assault Rifles generally have a high rate of fire, they can apply a large number of stacks quickly.

In a vacuum that sounds good, but in my experience assault rifles are SO far below the curve, that PerAtt still doesn't help (merely brings them from "terrible" to "acceptable")

[(PSN)strikeback3301]

I can't believe people are selling gear for small content island.

The real problems with this mode are for real endgame players not some casual who has nothing.

If you L3 for example wonder why you keep seeing starter weapons that you buy for credits... its because its the only S#&$ you don't own.

This is not a random selection its a try before you buy shop to sell plat to new players tacked onto content.

WF ftp yea needs to make money but make fun good game, people will spend, Using new content to sell horse cosmetics to new players bad direction.

As a company its scummy tactics with forma, slots, potatoes, adapters just to make 1 item good is bad enough the player base lets it slide, but this so called random selection being not random, who ever came up with the idea is bad at design and the job they have.

The cave not having an arsenal to mod your selection, WTF is that about well done in the meeting that came up with putting it in dormazone, well guess you need some reason for people to go to that zone that no players wanted.

You have pissed off many of the vet players but you keep showing you don't care about them. and are making the casuals delete gear, is this really a good system?

[cute_moth.npc]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)strikeback3301 said:

The real problems with this mode are for real endgame players not some casual who has nothing.

I happily sold a lot of stuff and like..

I don't actually think I'm a casual.. I mean, I'm more of one now because Duviri cut my play hours down a lot but my operator is 100% finished, I own most of the arcanes in this game, and I have not like one or two weapons that can trivialize Steel Path, but a selection of fully finished, vicious gear. I just choose not to chase MR or collect junk that doesn't interest me.

You're right though, the real problems with this mode are all about end game for me too.

I've been waiting for "somewhere to use all of this junk" ever since I reached this level of power and it literally never comes because they just never seem interested in adding it in any real fashion.

Archon hunt endless mode with rule modifiers, teeming with sentients trying to kill me? Mm, no not really. Once a week.

The Circuit?! Finally, level scaling I can actually feel and an end gamey kind of feel.. I am so hungry for it.. Wow, look at all of those strings that got attached..

That's why I did it though, I want some end game places to play and this is the closest I get.. 

Gameplay, fun, engaging. Even then it's not a truly amazing game mode, but it's enough to make me actually want to play it. I'm not going to buy slots, potatoes and make tons of forma just to play what I've been dying to play.. I'm just going to sell the garbage, not look back, and go play. Actually, I'm probably never going to buy slots again because conveniently I have a ton of free slots all of a sudden from something ^^;

The hunger for literally anything resembling content fit for the gear we've already built is what drove me to do it. If this is the best I get and I have to break a few eggs to just dive in and have fun for once, so be it :)

if there was any kind of equivalent alternative to the circuit that had the same kind of actually noticeable level progression, mild challenges and variety, I wouldn't have sold all of this stuff, but we both know they've let vets down year after year on that front..

 

[Corvid]

40 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In a vacuum that sounds good, but in my experience assault rifles are SO far below the curve, that PerAtt still doesn't help (merely brings them from "terrible" to "acceptable")

And in my experience they end up being some of the most reliable weapons in the mode, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

[MutoManiac]

I got rid of about 15 frames I never enjoyed playing and I now get better choices in the cave, so I may delete a few more. Once you reach the level where you can survive SP, it doesn’t really take that long to get back any frame or weapon that you may want again, especially trading for them. I see no down sides getting rid of gear.

[(PSN)strikeback3301]

 

8 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

The hunger for literally anything resembling content fit for the gear we've already built is what drove me to do it. If this is the best I get and I have to break a few eggs to just dive in and have fun for once, so be it :)

This is such issue for me, I see where you coming from, but you shouldn't have to do this this to play content at all.

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And in my experience they end up being some of the most reliable weapons in the mode, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Would you mind sharing some builds? I haven't found a single 4+ forma assault rifle build that even comes close (as in "close enough for PerAtt to make up the difference") to a basic zero forma Nataruk. Or if the Nataruk is unfair, a 2 forma Euphona Prime

[cute_moth.npc]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)strikeback3301 said:

 

This is such issue for me, I see where you coming from, but you shouldn't have to do this this to play content at all.

I agree, but from my perspective it's pretty simple:

They've failed to give me literally anything else that really delivers what I've been hungering for and I'm at the point where I just don't care. Playing and having fun is what's #1 to me, not the grind. If offered a choice between the two, I will abandon the grind in favor of the fun in an instant, unquestionably.

One thing I'm definitely not about to do is increase my spending and reward poor design, so the alternative is to lessen my spending and lower the amount of reward that the developers receive, which means selling gear..

[(PSN)robotwars7]

to be honest, the odds of getting "bad gear" are hampered by many factors

- you have 4 slots, Warframe, Primary, Secondary and melee. with all opportunity intrinsics you've got 5 warframes, and 2-3 of each weapon type. the odds that all 4 will be bad are quite slim, as you'll likely get at least one option that you can work with at the very least, if not a "great" item (something you've invested in and also like to use.)

- how long are you staying for? bad gear doesn't matter that much if you only need to do a couple rounds for some Rune Marrow or that last bit of rep to hit rank 5 or 10.

- if you're playing with squads, they'll likely be carrying you anyway if they have decent enough gear: usually if one person picks Mesa and Kuva Bramma, your guns don't really matter because they'll be doing most of the killing. usually I take a look at anyone who's picked before me and If they're insistign on being the DPS for the match, I'll take Wisp, Hildryn or Oberon if they're available, so I can support them and the other team members. 

it's up to the individual, but I'm not selling any gear of mine except when a Prime/upgraded version of it comes out. if anything I'm actually going to go back and rebuild some old weapons now that they have an Incarnon Genesis, like Miter and Atomos.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I think there too many unknown variables (well either unknown, or I just don't know them) to tell, but also, there are a lot of variables to account for, and they may be certain thresholds, for some of those variables that involve aspects of RNG, and you also have to consider peoples subjective personal preferences. Like lets say comparing an individuals preference, one who has hard favourites and hard dislikes, vs someone who just mildly likes everything. Also, I am just generally skeptical of people who make certain claims/hard claims about values or subjects I can't see how/why they can be confident about, or only use personal experience as evidence (especially situations with variables in the hundreds/RNG). 

For myself, I also consider myself in a relatively small group of players. Like even being on a Forum dedicated to the game, is already a smallish minority, people who play longer than Steel Path for an hour is probably a minority as well (I don't have hard data here, but some educated guesses based on what DE occasionally reveals, talks about). I personally really like experimenting and testing different synergies in Warframe. So even when I come across a weapon or Warframe I don't like, or enjoy, I hold on to them, invest in them, and wonder to myself, what can I do to enjoy those things. Like I find that fun. 

There are still things I dislike, like... never really managed to make myself enjoy Hydroid unless its with certain weapons. In which case I am mostly just enjoying those weapons. In Circuit though, I would probably prefer the Hydroid I have visually modified and invested in, than a loaner Hydroid. So as far as myself versus another player, who more actively dislikes certain Warframes and they just can't won't play them (ditto for weapons) well... Thats an important distinction. Also like... DE can't give you something you don't own... if you own everything. Which I do as far as Warframes, and am close to as far as weapons (well for the purpose of Circuit RNG, since I do sell non Primes, when I get Primes, ditto Tenet/Kuva weapons. I can actually count on my hands which weapons I don't have, because I mostly sold them for funny reasons. For example I sold the Burston Prime because I felt it was so lacklustre. So I laughed the other day when I got regular Burston in the Circuit. So I am usually getting one weapon I don't own, but for me, it just means that I keep getting the new melee weapons frequently. I also do want to want to get a Burston Prime again, just because Incarnon reasons. 

Also again obviously, I know that this isn't reflective or representative of most players. 

Regardless I do agree with OP's end conclusion either way. Unless selling off those things was something you may have already been considering or wanting to do anyway. Which it sounds like it was/is for some players.