One Tenno VS One Earth Nation During The 20th Century

[---Merchant---]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's worth remembering that while the Karak is certainly appears to just be an AK with shiny lights, most Grineer weapons show indicators of being subtly more advanced. Consider the Grakata somehow fitting 120 rounds in a tiny, screw-on bulb. That suggests even Grineer tech uses matter compression technology, and if the lowest-tech faction in the game is casually carrying around tech that is that sci-fi, it's pretty likely that under the hood there's a lot of other changes that make them more deadly. And that is assuming that mods aren't a thing for most Grineer, which there is some lore to suggest that at least some Grineer can use them (though mods probably have some measure of difference in lore vs gameplay). Chances are that a Grineer or Tenno bullet just outright hits harder than a comparable 20th century one. Especially since they're roughly comparable or even equal to far more deadly weapons like superheated blades and plasma blasts.

Then there's the fact that any Warframe can take at least one hit from an orbital bombardment thanks to shield-gating, and most can no-sell them entirely through other means. So Warframes have some crazy durability.

We also need to consider that Warframes can destroy walls and rip apart structures and do so regularly in gameplay, just only when the game devs want us to (which is not very often). It's a gameplay contrivance. In the same way that trying to argue damage numbers to the impact of real-world weapons (for example, most Tenno weapons have higher damage numbers than aforementioned orbital bombardments, but that's due to player/enemy health disparity and gameplay fairness). Ordis comments that the void beam could breach the hull of the Orbiter, and probably most other similarly sized ships, so canonically, Tenno can pierce walls, the devs just want there to be walls, so the player can't break them. There's a number of such contrivances (That vault's armour is too thick for my Archgun that can canonically punch through armour fit for a kilometer sized battleship????).

 

Toxin damage, however, that definitely does seem to pierce shields canonically, and poison gases were somewhat of the talk of the time in the early 20th century. So, certainly, if the occupying force doesn't mind losing all the other soldiers in the area, they could conceivably damage a frame, though given that frames canonically can survive in space for much longer than a normal human would without any signs of distress even (there are multiple cutscenes of us floating about in space just chilling, and if we assume that the absence of life support means space-like conditions in survival, a Tenno can probably survive for around two and half minutes in a vacuum before beginning to experience negative health effects), chances are that even nasty gases would take a lot longer to start having a seriously negative effect, and many frames could reduce or even negate the effects entirely.

@SneakyErvin does also make a valid point that Tenno show clear and major vulnerability to significant electromagnetic fields and EMP's. Though it is worth noting that the effect itself was only discovered in the 1950's, and the earliest I can find information regarding Non-Nuclear-EMP's as weapons is 2003. Obviously the tech probably existed earlier, but there wasn't really much need or use for the tech before the digital age beyond communication disruption, so it's pretty unlikely that any nation would have that many options to produce an EMP other than detonating a nuke in orbit, or manually connecting an extremely powerful magnet to a creature capable of running up walls as fast as a car (at base). Even then, EMP's only shut down a Tenno's shields, scrambles their internal information systems and if it's strong enough, shuts down their powers briefly. They still have full access to their mobility, manual weapons and absurd physical strength. Key word being briefly. It's a disruption and a disorientation at best, so there'd need to be a lot of co-ordination to capitalise. Possible, yes, practical no.

 

But still, that's two options to say that it's possible. I'd still say that a Tenno would have the overwhelming advantage, since you'd need to set up the attack in advance, and the Tenno effectively controls where they get into a fight. And that's probably the biggest kicker overall. There's ways a co-ordinated military strike could take out a Tenno, but the Tenno can appear effectively anywhere on the planet with no way to confirm their location until they're already there. What are you gonna do? Flood the Pentagon or the White House with Mustard gas? And have that be ready at all times since you will have no warning for a Tenno showing up? And have it be guarded so well there's no chance the Tenno doesn't find and activate it first? AND have enough guards and defenses that you actually keep the Tenno in the gas long enough for it to die? Multiple times potentially since Revives are canonical (though we don't know how many most frames get in lore vs gameplay). Now expand this to every single potential military and governmental target on the entire planet, including every single governor's place of residence and transport between them.

And then if you succeed in killing the Warframe? Congrats, you killed a Warframe. OP specified a complement of frames on an orbiter, so do it another 51 times. And the Tenno on board knows what you're capable of now and is going to ask their computer with quite probably more computing power than the entire planet below (depending on when in the 20th century we're talking here) for ideas on what to do. 

Tenno computers canonically do not work, and if they can not extract our top security folders in under 1.5minute they lose, which makes them freeze in place and we can gass them.
Tenno 0 Earth 1. I also do not like the ammount of fan-fiction you try to use to say that they could escape walled space. Even assuming that they could use assblaster2000 to breach pentagon wall from space, they would get walled by shipping container and lose for they can not use the space cannon while not being in the ship, which is true railjack gamemode canon.

And tbh our best mma fighters could just beat warframe one on one after they slip on banana peel(or dog jumps them which is game canon again) which removes their weapons and places them 5km under the textures i mean under the earth crust. 

There is just no imaginable universe where tenno would actually win against sweaty men with shipping containers and wooden spears. I would need to forget a lot about the game to allow for such idea to even cross my mind.

[Thorham]

Just drop a nuke on them and be done with it.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, ---Merchant--- said:

Tenno computers canonically do not work, and if they can not extract our top security folders in under 1.5minute they lose, which makes them freeze in place and we can gass them.

First of all, I have no clue where you're getting 'Tenno computers do not work' from. Tenno computers are things like the Sanctuary, the Codex, the Simulacrum. And you know. Ordis. He's glitchy, but he also flies the Orbiter just fine so be nice.

As for 'If they can't extract our top security folder in 1.5 minutes', may I introduce you to spy missions where the Tenno can extract encrpyted folders, without leaving any trace in about 5 seconds.

1 hour ago, ---Merchant--- said:

I also do not like the ammount of fan-fiction you try to use to say that they could escape walled space. Even assuming that they could use assblaster2000 to breach pentagon wall from space, they would get walled by shipping container and lose for they can not use the space cannon while not being in the ship, which is true railjack gamemode canon.

... it's the void beam. Not even using an amp, an operator using the void beam could pierce the hull of a spacecraft. Ordis, very alarmed, yells "Operator, you'll breach the hull! Restrain yourself!"

Yeah that dinky lil laser could drill through the Orbiter if the Operator was motivated enough. There's a reason I'm not using damage numbers, it canonically disintegrates whatever it touches, it mechanically is a super soaker.

1 hour ago, ---Merchant--- said:

And tbh our best mma fighters could just beat warframe one on one after they slip on banana peel(or dog jumps them which is game canon again) which removes their weapons and places them 5km under the textures i mean under the earth crust. 

I'll grant that Kubrows can knock them over. But name me an MMA fighter that can rip a metal vent twice their size out of a giant robot.

Also, Pretty sure glitches aren't canon.

1 hour ago, ---Merchant--- said:

There is just no imaginable universe where tenno would actually win against sweaty men with shipping containers and wooden spears. I would need to forget a lot about the game to allow for such idea to even cross my mind.

Perhaps we are playing different games. Or indeed perhaps I have been drawn into a prank, but even if so, it's still rather fun.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Loza03 said:

@SneakyErvin does also make a valid point that Tenno show clear and major vulnerability to significant electromagnetic fields and EMP's. Though it is worth noting that the effect itself was only discovered in the 1950's, and the earliest I can find information regarding Non-Nuclear-EMP's as weapons is 2003. Obviously the tech probably existed earlier, but there wasn't really much need or use for the tech before the digital age beyond communication disruption, so it's pretty unlikely that any nation would have that many options to produce an EMP other than detonating a nuke in orbit, or manually connecting an extremely powerful magnet to a creature capable of running up walls as fast as a car (at base). Even then, EMP's only shut down a Tenno's shields, scrambles their internal information systems and if it's strong enough, shuts down their powers briefly. They still have full access to their mobility, manual weapons and absurd physical strength. Key word being briefly. It's a disruption and a disorientation at best, so there'd need to be a lot of co-ordination to capitalise. Possible, yes, practical no.

Also dont forget that what we call EMP in our recent/current time might not at all have any effect on a Warframe that is powered by the void. We should also remember that the frame can become immune to those effects fully by simply using the right armaments, armaments that are interchangable based on need for the task at hand. So it would be easy for say a warframe to use the weapons against the enemy. Just imagine how it would wreck a whole region by literally walking into the core of a nuclear powerplant and just shutting it down forcefully, leading to powerless chaos aswell as a high risk that the whole area and several others will be irradiated if things go really bad. Or bait the enemy to use an EMP in a key location just to "kill" it, a bait that can be done either by staying using the right armanent, sacrificing a specter or just pulling a Scotty with the omnitool at the last second.

But in reality, the only thing the tenno would need to do in order to win without any trouble is grab Revenant and go to town. Not much any weapon or army could do to stop it. It can sow discord among enemies, is nearly immune to damage, can kill you by simply moving over you and it can take out full armies with weaponry that adapts to whatever defense it faces. Plus, since we rely so much on tech these days and a computer is in practically anything, Rev would very likely be able to enthrall things like tanks too since he can enthrall the sentient and infested, that are mechanicals or made up of nano-tech.

 

[Felsagger]

On 2023-05-19 at 10:02 AM, cute_moth.npc said:

Real humans don't have Playstation 2 level A.I. and can coordinate and innovate.

I don't think it would work, you should put a hold on those world domination plans until you at least find a few friends.

 

A savage accurate answer. The game Warframe AI suffers ENTIRELY from the severe lack of MILITARY accuracy. 

The second issue is fuel and energy conversion. In this physical world everything consumes resources despite the technology level. In the video game world the player has infinite stamina and apparent infinite fuel resource. 

 

 

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also dont forget that what we call EMP in our recent/current time might not at all have any effect on a Warframe that is powered by the void. We should also remember that the frame can become immune to those effects fully by simply using the right armaments, armaments that are interchangable based on need for the task at hand. So it would be easy for say a warframe to use the weapons against the enemy. Just imagine how it would wreck a whole region by literally walking into the core of a nuclear powerplant and just shutting it down forcefully, leading to powerless chaos aswell as a high risk that the whole area and several others will be irradiated if things go really bad. Or bait the enemy to use an EMP in a key location just to "kill" it, a bait that can be done either by staying using the right armanent, sacrificing a specter or just pulling a Scotty with the omnitool at the last second.

In fairness, we know that nukes also work thanks to Grineer Hijack (although the fomorian core is apparetnly a really dirty bomb and puts out radiation that's beyond the electromagnetic spectrum if 'Omega' Radiation lives up to its name). Unfortunately for 1900's earth, they'd probably be trivial for Ordis to detect, and landing craft are pretty fast, so the Tenno could quite possibly just juke out a nuke. 

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But in reality, the only thing the tenno would need to do in order to win without any trouble is grab Revenant and go to town. Not much any weapon or army could do to stop it. It can sow discord among enemies, is nearly immune to damage, can kill you by simply moving over you and it can take out full armies with weaponry that adapts to whatever defense it faces. Plus, since we rely so much on tech these days and a computer is in practically anything, Rev would very likely be able to enthrall things like tanks too since he can enthrall the sentient and infested, that are mechanicals or made up of nano-tech.

And this is absolutely true. Nothing short of the aforementioned nuclear weapons could take out a revenant, and at that point that's probably destroying everything around him too. Assuming he doesn't pull the 'Hey Ordis come pick me up."

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

Most frames would probably end up getting taken down Order 66 style by sheer overwhelming numbers, but depending on the build and which frame is being used some would be outright invincible until a weakness is identified. Even if there is no weakness there is always the good ol' hidden hole trap to immobilize the target and fill in.

[ShogunGunshow]

All you need to do to defeat a warframe is to knock it into a pool of waist-high water. Done.

[cute_moth.npc]

5 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

All you need to do to defeat a warframe is to knock it into a pool of waist-high water. Done.

Puddle of toxin on the ground also works. It doesn't have to be really that deadly, just enough to count as a toxin.

We could use bug spray!

Frame-B-Gone ~ guaranteed to repel even the peskiest Revenants while being CFC free and safe for your kids!**

(**short term exposure only. Long term exposure may cause cancer)

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Sierra said:

Even if there is no weakness there is always the good ol' hidden hole trap to immobilize the target and fill in.

Ah yes. Holes.

Holes will definitely contain them.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

On 2023-05-19 at 9:44 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Your warframes would also need to return to the ship allowing limited tracking , with potential of shooting some nukes at you during entry or exit.

We park our ships in the void, it's one of the reasons we can sit in orbit on any planet and neither grineer or corpus are any the wiser with us sitting right in front of them. 

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

We park our ships in the void, it's one of the reasons we can sit in orbit on any planet and neither grineer or corpus are any the wiser with us sitting right in front of them. 

The orbiter is void cloaked , it does not "sit in the void" , it also needs to be disengaged while moving at any discernable speeds.

The landing craft traverses real space during entry and exit even if the orbiter itself is cloaked.

A Landing craft got shot down by vor once ,It is not outside the scope of possibility that it can happen again.

Then you are down one landing craft and one warframe stuck on earth that is exposed to the elements and possible artillery , small and heavy arms fire with no exit.

The landing craft if reverse engineered could act as a Trojan horse at best (think judgement day) or give coordinates to the actual orbiter and some understanding of the tech at worst.

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ah yes. Holes.

Holes will definitely contain them.

Well played! XD

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

A Landing craft got shot down by vor once ,It is not outside the scope of possibility that it can happen again.

Shot down by superior tech. Tech meant to chase down a target that can enter and exit the atmosphere in a matter of seconds with ease and little brute force to do it. 

Quote

It takes the shuttle approximately 8-1/2 minutes to get to orbit. And if you think about it, we're accelerating a 4-1/2 million pound system from zero miles per hour to its orbital velocity of 17,500 miles per hour in those 8-1/2 minutes.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/sts121/launch/qa-leinbach.html#:~:text=It takes the shuttle approximately,8-1%2F2 minutes.

So even with the moments of vulnerability, good luck to anything we currently have actually matching the drop ship and orbiters speed. 

Fastest missile moves at Mach 3.5. That is only 2,685 miles per hour. 

BrahMos - Wikipedia

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

Shot down by superior tech. Tech meant to chase down a target that can enter and exit the atmosphere in a matter of seconds with ease and little brute force to do it. 

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/sts121/launch/qa-leinbach.html#:~:text=It takes the shuttle approximately,8-1%2F2 minutes.

 

Ignoring everything else i said are you , *tsk tsk* not a good way to have a discussion.

So tell me, does a warframe jump onto a moving landing craft , or is it stationery for some time , enough time for some heavy ordinance , tracking beacon , or disrupting emp to be used if one is either very lucky or very prepared ?

We are talking about the entire bulk of the planet after all and with time better tactics will be developed to counter the incursions.

Vor might use advanced tech , but sufficient brute force will also get the job done.

[RichardKam]

Depends.

Limbo with aquablade in the rift can probably kill everyone, very slowly, like the immortal snail assassin.

Other brute force frames like Rhino and Atlas may live longer, but they cannot survive a nuke blast.

Interestingly squishy frames like Gyre or Mag can do the job better by abusing shield gating. 

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ignoring everything else i said are you , *tsk tsk* not a good way to have a discussion.

So tell me, does a warframe jump onto a moving landing craft , or is it stationery for some time , enough time for some heavy ordinance , tracking beacon , or disrupting emp to be used if one is either very lucky or very prepared ?

We are talking about the entire bulk of the planet after all and with time better tactics will be developed to counter the incursions.

Vor might use advanced tech , but sufficient brute force will also get the job done.

Even if the landing craft stops it is highly unlikely it would do so in an exposed location where ordinance can reach it. It would all be about deadzones and so on at that point. And as tactics develop for better counters, the tactics develop for the tenno aswell. You can just see on many tiles where we get picked up, which is within deep canyons and so on, all to minimize the risk of getting shot down. Plus our current tech doesnt really allow us to hide things in a way that wouldnt be scannable for Ordis.

So for us the solution to counter a single frame would very likely end up being a scorched earth approach, where we are willing to destroy and sacrifice anything just to get a chance at killing a single frame. Which would mean nuking a base that is attacked before the frame has a chance to extract. Which would have to succeed over 50 times to remove all potential threats that the tenno can use.

[0_The_F00l]

51 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Even if the landing craft stops it is highly unlikely it would do so in an exposed location where ordinance can reach it. It would all be about deadzones and so on at that point. And as tactics develop for better counters, the tactics develop for the tenno aswell. You can just see on many tiles where we get picked up, which is within deep canyons and so on, all to minimize the risk of getting shot down. Plus our current tech doesnt really allow us to hide things in a way that wouldnt be scannable for Ordis.

So for us the solution to counter a single frame would very likely end up being a scorched earth approach, where we are willing to destroy and sacrifice anything just to get a chance at killing a single frame. Which would mean nuking a base that is attacked before the frame has a chance to extract. Which would have to succeed over 50 times to remove all potential threats that the tenno can use.

you really want to get into the potential practical problems with how we are currently dropped and picked up by the landing craft?

Sure lets go ,

Warframes are dropped in areas which for some reason have no surveillance with a very obvious point of entry / infiltration - unlikely to be happening in real world scenarios unless they are dropped miles and miles and miles away, ideally the point of entry and exit should be the same , but for some unforeseen logic , you can pick up the warframe a few meters from the objective but you cant drop the warframe there? Stupid on multiple levels, outside of a video game. And so i refute your point that they are dropped in deadzone , they are dropped in plot holes.

Warframes extract within LoS of enemy encampments , with a pre defined loading dock with enough space and time for warframes to stop and get on slowly and steadily - unlikely to be the case in real world scenarios unless , again, the warframes run for miles and miles to a location where someone has created landing ports , during which time they may again , be picked by surveillance or intercepted by different security team,

There is also no mention of the actual fuel being used (just void magic?) to transfer the warframes, if it does take conventional fuel then you will need to maintain a line of fuel to work (which could be sabotaged) or if you depend on the void , well tough luck , ain't no void heart here. Which will actually not even let you use any warframes in the first place , so conventional fuel it is , which is not going to be unlimited.

In space it is relatively easy to cloak and move at high speeds (no air , no obstacles) in atmosphere the ships would be followed by persistent sonic booms , air current shifts and visual confirmations from different people.

You are kinda going on a slippery slope on the whole scorched earth approach, it all boils down to purpose and intention. Why would a tenno be in the past , and towards what agenda would they be moving towards that they need to infiltrate anything?based on the answer there may be multiple approaches to it including scorched earth or nuclear if the threat is dire enough.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

We have a lot of Platinum. We can just barter a trade with the Tenno, offer them an absorbent amount of Plat, too much for any sane Tenno to refuse, and we buy their Prime Sure Footed mod. We won't have to abide by future rules about not being able to trade it. Then we just watch the Tenno continually stagger themselves over and over, with their own AOE weapons, neutralising their threat. 

That or we just hook them up to the current Internet, buy them some games on Steam. Have you see Frame Fighter? Happy Zephyr? Lets be real, the games they have access to suck, give them a real fighting game, a game with romance options, RPG's, anime, etc and they'll probably join our side, and give us access to their tech, which lets us reverse engineer it, and lead us on the path to becoming a glorious golden empire. We'd be so powerful, we'd even actually start to be too powerful and greedy, and take our long loves and wealth across the galaxy for granted... We may even start body modifications and making clones slaves and sending sentient AI's to other galaxies to terraform them so... wait a minute... 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

you really want to get into the potential practical problems with how we are currently dropped and picked up by the landing craft?

Sure lets go ,

Warframes are dropped in areas which for some reason have no surveillance with a very obvious point of entry / infiltration - unlikely to be happening in real world scenarios unless they are dropped miles and miles and miles away, ideally the point of entry and exit should be the same , but for some unforeseen logic , you can pick up the warframe a few meters from the objective but you cant drop the warframe there? Stupid on multiple levels, outside of a video game. And so i refute your point that they are dropped in deadzone , they are dropped in plot holes.

Warframes extract within LoS of enemy encampments , with a pre defined loading dock with enough space and time for warframes to stop and get on slowly and steadily - unlikely to be the case in real world scenarios unless , again, the warframes run for miles and miles to a location where someone has created landing ports , during which time they may again , be picked by surveillance or intercepted by different security team,

There is also no mention of the actual fuel being used (just void magic?) to transfer the warframes, if it does take conventional fuel then you will need to maintain a line of fuel to work (which could be sabotaged) or if you depend on the void , well tough luck , ain't no void heart here. Which will actually not even let you use any warframes in the first place , so conventional fuel it is , which is not going to be unlimited.

In space it is relatively easy to cloak and move at high speeds (no air , no obstacles) in atmosphere the ships would be followed by persistent sonic booms , air current shifts and visual confirmations from different people.

You are kinda going on a slippery slope on the whole scorched earth approach, it all boils down to purpose and intention. Why would a tenno be in the past , and towards what agenda would they be moving towards that they need to infiltrate anything?based on the answer there may be multiple approaches to it including scorched earth or nuclear if the threat is dire enough.

 

It isnt a plot hole, it is uhm quite common tactical insertion and extraction. You start out far from security at a "safe" location in order to stay undetected for as long as possible, and you exctract at an area as safe as possible aswell. We dont actually know how far the frame has traveled on foot before getting to the insertion point even. The only thing that is a "plot hole" are the extraction zones on certain tiles, with pre-defined rooms with "warframe chambers". But on several other maps there are actual natural extraction points, like the lander making use of pre-exsisting landing pads for enemy crafts. Though in the case of the "warframe chambers", that could also just be us making use of pre-exsisting docking slots for personal transports. And if we wanna go into getting detected while sitting still, well hello Millennium Falcon squatting on the Star Destroyer. Same principle here, and there is a high chance that the lander has a cloaking device aswell, since everything else practically has it, and the lander being a part of the orbiter means that is fairly given.

There is no reason to consider fuel, the void, or the lack of it, because if a tenno were to jump through time, it would be extremely unlikely it would do so without the needed energy to actual work once it arrives with its arsenal. Because why would it?

And why they would be in the past? For some reason. It really doesnt impact what they can do or what scenarios could arise. My point is simply that in a situation where the warframe had to be destroyed it would practically have to be done through some form of scorched earth means several times over, because conventional combat wouldnt work against one and there are plenty in reserve.

Another thing to consider is that all of it would take place on earth, so there would be no reason to risk insertion and extraction over and over. So the tenno could set up a potential base of operations the moment they arrive before they make themselves known.

Though since we are talking time travel, there is always the chance that earth would win simply because the tenno alters their own future too much so they never exsist or become what they are in the first place.

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Though since we are talking time travel, there is always the chance that earth would win simply because the tenno alters their own future too much so they never exsist or become what they are in the first place.

Lets keep the hypothetical time squeeze limited else we will not even be having this discussion.

 

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt a plot hole, it is uhm quite common tactical insertion and extraction. You start out far from security at a "safe" location in order to stay undetected for as long as possible, and you exctract at an area as safe as possible aswell. We dont actually know how far the frame has traveled on foot before getting to the insertion point even. The only thing that is a "plot hole" are the extraction zones on certain tiles, with pre-defined rooms with "warframe chambers". But on several other maps there are actual natural extraction points, like the lander making use of pre-exsisting landing pads for enemy crafts. Though in the case of the "warframe chambers", that could also just be us making use of pre-exsisting docking slots for personal transports. And if we wanna go into getting detected while sitting still, well hello Millennium Falcon squatting on the Star Destroyer. Same principle here, and there is a high chance that the lander has a cloaking device aswell, since everything else practically has it, and the lander being a part of the orbiter means that is fairly given.

It is absolutely a plot hole , if the landing craft can actually be that stealthy it could just drop a bomb on top of the objective. No need for warframes in the first place. If it can pick us up anywhere , it should be able to pick us up ANYWHERE , but it doesnt. There are arbitrary pre defined places to do so.

I have not seen the landing craft use a cloak yet , maybe i missed it , do share if that has ever happened.

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is no reason to consider fuel, the void, or the lack of it, because if a tenno were to jump through time, it would be extremely unlikely it would do so without the needed energy to actual work once it arrives with its arsenal. Because why would it?

Because energy is never unlimited and neither are resoources , you would consume energy over time and you would need to replenish it as well you would consume resources and would need a means to obtain them. Hence my very first point was about logistics being the actual challenge. The very first breach into the void was for the exact purpose to gain energy. So there absolutely is a reason to consider fuel , nothing on your ship would work if you used it all and never had a means to replenish it.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why they would be in the past? For some reason. It really doesnt impact what they can do or what scenarios could arise. My point is simply that in a situation where the warframe had to be destroyed it would practically have to be done through some form of scorched earth means several times over, because conventional combat wouldnt work against one and there are plenty in reserve.

It matters , if you are going to rob a bank you will have police after you , if you are going to try and rob a weapon grade uranium cache (i know its just for emphasis) you will have the military after you , if you try to gain access to the nuclear launch codes you will have multiple countries after you and would rather destroy the base than let you get away with it. The response needs to justify the threat level.

Even with conventional methods , the warframe can still be damaged , the grineer use conventional weapons and can still be a sufficient threat in enough numbers. If you run out of resources to repair them you are not going to do much.

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Another thing to consider is that all of it would take place on earth, so there would be no reason to risk insertion and extraction over and over. So the tenno could set up a potential base of operations the moment they arrive before they make themselves known.

A base of operations which can be sabotaged , are you not getting what i am saying here? Invaders can win if there is assurance of re reinforcements and supply of resource to subjugate the populace , but if they only have an attacking force with no further means of administering the conquered region they will not be able to do much.

You also overestimate the ability of a single warframe to traverse the world by itself when it is always wanted.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Lets keep the hypothetical time squeeze limited else we will not even be having this discussion.

 

It is absolutely a plot hole , if the landing craft can actually be that stealthy it could just drop a bomb on top of the objective. No need for warframes in the first place. If it can pick us up anywhere , it should be able to pick us up ANYWHERE , but it doesnt. There are arbitrary pre defined places to do so.

I have not seen the landing craft use a cloak yet , maybe i missed it , do share if that has ever happened.

Because energy is never unlimited and neither are resoources , you would consume energy over time and you would need to replenish it as well you would consume resources and would need a means to obtain them. Hence my very first point was about logistics being the actual challenge. The very first breach into the void was for the exact purpose to gain energy. So there absolutely is a reason to consider fuel , nothing on your ship would work if you used it all and never had a means to replenish it.

It matters , if you are going to rob a bank you will have police after you , if you are going to try and rob a weapon grade uranium cache (i know its just for emphasis) you will have the military after you , if you try to gain access to the nuclear launch codes you will have multiple countries after you and would rather destroy the base than let you get away with it. The response needs to justify the threat level.

Even with conventional methods , the warframe can still be damaged , the grineer use conventional weapons and can still be a sufficient threat in enough numbers. If you run out of resources to repair them you are not going to do much.

A base of operations which can be sabotaged , are you not getting what i am saying here? Invaders can win if there is assurance of re reinforcements and supply of resource to subjugate the populace , but if they only have an attacking force with no further means of administering the conquered region they will not be able to do much.

You also overestimate the ability of a single warframe to traverse the world by itself when it is always wanted.

But it isnt about "be that stealthy". It is about conventional insertion and extraction tactics, that is done by loud choppers or boats in our day and age. And how would a landing craft be able to drop a bomb when we have no bombs to drop? Warframes are "covert" weapons or battlefield units. And the reason it doesnt pick us up anywhere is because of gameplay limitations. In reality this wouldnt be the case, and we are considering a "real world" scenario. Otherwise if we are to go by gameplay restrictions the warframes would be stopped at the first door they run into because we cannot interact with door knobs in the game, only specific access panels with faction based codes, that automatically open as the code is entered. We'd also be royaly screwed in any place that doesnt use frame sized vents.

Never seen it outside of certain stealth frame bugs, but it is very unlikely it isnt cloaked as we deal with the missions when the orbiter itself is cloaked. Which we know from lore. Otherwise enemies would be able to track it back to our orbiter upon extraction etc. Which would be a death sentence.

The void is unlimited though, since it is everywhere. So aslong as the heart comes, we have infinite power. And logistics wouldnt really be a challenge since we have personal extractors to get what we need. And all materials we use are pretty much just renamed materials we can find now, with the exception of anything infested based. But the main goal would be to be able to make ammunition. Then depending on what our orbiter and lander is fueled by we'd need that too, but very likely it is some form of reactor. Eventually it would probably run out.

The worst threat is still the only important threat, since the rest of it can be dealt with in such a case anyways. If we can decimate an army with a frame, including their tanks and planes, some boys in blue or a S.W.A.T team wouldnt even be a speed bump. And the tenno would likely never need to expose themselves to stealing launch codes, because we can already hack more advanced systems, even automatically at that. The reason security systems in the game are so simple is because us players are supposed to solve them, but in "reality" those hacks are very likely much more intricate, unless grineer, corpus, duvirians and narmer like to have their safes opened by crackhead toddlers.

I wouldnt call the Grineer weapons conventional. They simply work like normal guns, but so does many sci-fi guns, no matter if it is the Lawgiver of Dredd, the pistol of Robocop, the bolter of a Space Marine, the smartgun of an Aliens Space Marine or the Scythe of Semai of a Praetorian Stalker. They are however very unconventional weapons when it comes to damage output. The conventional part of Grineer weapons is that they shoot simple non-fancy bullets and rockets. Then, since the tenno would be there too, repairing is of no consideration since they simply do so through void power. So there is no resource to run out of as frames get damaged on the field, the tenno can in essence repair the frame on the go if they so with. And that is if the frame doesnt have innate reconstruction/regeneration/repair components, like Nidus, Oberon or anyone with Helminth improvements, shards or arcanes.

And yes the base could be sabotaged if it can be found. Which is a big if, since not even in the damaged state is it at much risk post TNW, stuck on a planet dominated by the Grineer.

No overestimation, it is simply safer to travel as a "mansized" target across the globe with the potential to also teleport over distances as needed. It isnt like it would commute, grab a taxi, call an uber or use commercial flights. It would use an archwing, which would also boost defenses immensly aswell as give it air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities either based on the wing or the weapons at hand.

[0_The_F00l]

Time to pull out by scalpel.

43 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it isnt about "be that stealthy". It is about conventional insertion and extraction tactics, that is done by loud choppers or boats in our day and age. And how would a landing craft be able to drop a bomb when we have no bombs to drop? Warframes are "covert" weapons or battlefield units. And the reason it doesnt pick us up anywhere is because of gameplay limitations. In reality this wouldnt be the case, and we are considering a "real world" scenario. Otherwise if we are to go by gameplay restrictions the warframes would be stopped at the first door they run into because we cannot interact with door knobs in the game, only specific access panels with faction based codes, that automatically open as the code is entered. We'd also be royaly screwed in any place that doesnt use frame sized vents.

Insertion tactics depend on stealth -_- , otherwise its an invasion. This is also where you are contradicting yourself we are not talking about conventional tools as warframes are not conventional by any sense of the word . We will have to draw a line as to what is "gameplay limitation and what is possible in universe limitation" anything either of us debates before then is only conjecture between two people about their opinions (fun as it may be).

The use of choppers and boats is a good example though , they have certain capacity , they can carry payloads and personnel, have a specific range up to which they can travel before refueling and they need a proper place to be at not just anywhere will do unless you want to risk potential damage either by collision or by arms fire.

Also What is a bomb? Anything that is designed to explode and cause damage in its immediate vicinity. Anything can be a bomb if you have the resoucres , and clearly you are of the opinion that the tenno would have the resources, right? cant run something as large as the orbiter without a few things that can go boom. Cant have all those shiny lights running without something that makes a spark.

The landing craft is more than capable of dropping a bomb conventional or otherwise.

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Never seen it outside of certain stealth frame bugs, but it is very unlikely it isnt cloaked as we deal with the missions when the orbiter itself is cloaked. Which we know from lore. Otherwise enemies would be able to track it back to our orbiter upon extraction etc. Which would be a death sentence.

Thats like your opinion man , the only active instance we have of cloaking is in railjacks , and that is shortlived and the enemy becomes aware of you if you start shooting them. And remember the part about drawing the line between gameplay and in universe limitation? here's another instance of the same. Not to mention the Orbiter is capable of interplanatery traversal because of solar rails , rails which don't exist in this day and age , so yes , you may actually get screwed cause you cant actually go anywhere without it. One of the reasons why i think it would not go as you think.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The void is unlimited though, since it is everywhere. So aslong as the heart comes, we have infinite power. And logistics wouldnt really be a challenge since we have personal extractors to get what we need. And all materials we use are pretty much just renamed materials we can find now, with the exception of anything infested based. But the main goal would be to be able to make ammunition. Then depending on what our orbiter and lander is fueled by we'd need that too, but very likely it is some form of reactor. Eventually it would probably run out.

The void is unexplained and infinite , it is whatever you expect/dont expect it to be. You are also assuming the heart comes and the void can manifest before it was discovered, whats the basis of this assumption? And what makes you think the other tenno would allow you to take the one thing that gives them their power to be taken from them?

Extractors ? the drones you send to the planets? assuming they give back more than they themselves cost to upkeep? possibly , but they also have the potential to be damaged and destroyed , and i don't know if you can buy more BP from the market of the past :P, it is definitely possible to replenish part of the stock and manufacture some of it in the foundry , but if you always run the risk of losing your extractors thats a difficult position to maintain.

Conventional ammo? You could probably make , but what about non conventional ones? what about things that need resources from jupiter? no solar rails remember? no nitain , no argon crystals. no cryotic , no weird mushroom things either. again you seem to underestimate how easy it is to exploit or recycle natural resources without a steady supply of raw material.

And that was the point i was making , you will eventually run out or spares , resources and energy, the more you exert energy the faster you will drain your limited resources with very limited means to replensih it The only way you could possibly survive is by forming a partnership with those that might be able to .

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The worst threat is still the only important threat, since the rest of it can be dealt with in such a case anyways. If we can decimate an army with a frame, including their tanks and planes, some boys in blue or a S.W.A.T team wouldnt even be a speed bump. And the tenno would likely never need to expose themselves to stealing launch codes, because we can already hack more advanced systems, even automatically at that. The reason security systems in the game are so simple is because us players are supposed to solve them, but in "reality" those hacks are very likely much more intricate, unless grineer, corpus, duvirians and narmer like to have their safes opened by crackhead toddlers.

What do you mean by the worst threat and only important threat? every threat is a treat , S#&$ can go either way in a conflict.

Ever hear of David and Goliath? , goliath may be a giant , but there are many many many davids and they just need to get lucky once with their slingshot.

And speed bumps can cause quite some problems over tie if you dont watch out for them. Warframes are not invincible despite being very resilient. and a string enough force could take them down , that why they work overtly , not in direct conflict.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I wouldnt call the Grineer weapons conventional. They simply work like normal guns, but so does many sci-fi guns, no matter if it is the Lawgiver of Dredd, the pistol of Robocop, the bolter of a Space Marine, the smartgun of an Aliens Space Marine or the Scythe of Semai of a Praetorian Stalker. They are however very unconventional weapons when it comes to damage output. The conventional part of Grineer weapons is that they shoot simple non-fancy bullets and rockets. Then, since the tenno would be there too, repairing is of no consideration since they simply do so through void power. So there is no resource to run out of as frames get damaged on the field, the tenno can in essence repair the frame on the go if they so with. And that is if the frame doesnt have innate reconstruction/regeneration/repair components, like Nidus, Oberon or anyone with Helminth improvements, shards or arcanes.

Warframes do not repair though void power alone the operators do , the helminth room takes care of the "maintenance" of the frames and biological functions. It just never comes up cause it is not relevant to gameplay , but there is a very clear dialogue about it and the helminth does need to be fed to be functional. Again doesnt come up much in game but is absolutely there in universe. And , we dont know how well the void power will function if at all.

Which leads me to another very obvious issue which i forgot to highlight. Where will you get energy (or health ) orbs? for many of the frames to function it is necessary , and last time i checked you dont get energy orbs by slicing open people. So yes , there is absolutely a way to run out of resources for your frame to function.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yes the base could be sabotaged if it can be found. Which is a big if, since not even in the damaged state is it at much risk post TNW, stuck on a planet dominated by the Grineer.

Thats not a base , thats a camp. Whether or not it can be found is subject to the tenacity of the ones looking for it over time it will be found if you keep heading for it and all the air traffic control says that they are seeing anomalous movements in the region. Another point of in gameplay vs in universe possibility.

Good thing you arent invading during 40K i guess :P cause you wouldnt be lasting long.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No overestimation, it is simply safer to travel as a "mansized" target across the globe with the potential to also teleport over distances as needed. It isnt like it would commute, grab a taxi, call an uber or use commercial flights. It would use an archwing, which would also boost defenses immensly aswell as give it air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities either based on the wing or the weapons at hand.

Teleport over short distances? assuming you plan to use someone like nova/ash/loki for such things , do note that you cant switch between frames as you cant teleport back to command and again , no idea how you will gain energy to do so or how you plan to cross continents as warframes cant swim :P

Arch wings are absolutely going to be picked up on a radar and shot down as soon as possible, you cant even fly on the plains of eidolon without being shot down every few seconds forget about traversing large distances with A2A or S2A missiles following you everywhere.,

 

 

[Kaotyke]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

high chance that the lander has a cloaking device aswell,

Well... It does. No one does the Jordans Boss fight without skipping the cutscenes anymore to see it so I will say this: the Landing Craft can turn invisible as well.

[nelak]

I think both sides would be capable of hurting the other. Tenno while tough and fast are clearly shown to be capable of getting hurt by some pretty mundane things.

I don't think a Tenno's shields and armor would stand up to something like the CIWS Phalanx auto cannons. Those are designed to track and shoot down missiles travelling much faster than a tenno. 3000+ rpm at a range of over 5km and armor piercing bullets that make 50cal rounds look small. Or things like machine gun grenade launchers. Smaller caliber weapons might just be a nuisance though.

Humans would have no real response to the orbiter, tenno magic, and stuff like that though.

Who wins the war comes down to the reason for the war and each sides objectives and who can achieve their objectives first. If the goal is simply extermination of the other side with no further reasoning behind it? The tenno won't win. Humans might not win either but even if we lose a million people taking down one warframe, we have thousands of millions of people. How many warframes can the orbiter replace without access to the exotic materials it needs? Not to mention we'd probably just start dropping nukes at some point too and make it so no one wins. If we're going back to the 20th century then we have many thousands of nukes looking for an excuse to be used. 

However if there are actual goals for the war then it depends on what they are and what it'll take to achieve them. 

For example if the tenno came back in time to assassinate some horrible dictator then I don't think there's anything the humans could do to stop that. The tenno would drop in, murder their way through the base, take out their target, and be gone before the humans even realized wtf happened.