Is there a solution to Player confusion over Converted Enemies?

[Zahnrad]

Pretty much something I've noticed since...well forever I guess.

Whether it be through Syndicate Gear or Warframe abilities such as Shadows of the Dead and Mind Control (there's probably a ton of other stuff like Synoid Heliocor or Ballistica Prime)

Methods that result in having Enemies as Allies often tends to confuse players into attacking them even though it doesn't do anything. Just finished a mission with Nekros and came across a MR10+ Rhino who kept melee attacking my Shadows without realising they were allies. I've even caught myself doing it when I turn my brain off in a mission and I'm MR30+ so I have no excuse.

 

I'm curious if there is some sort of fix or change that can be done to help players distinguish between Enemies and Allied Enemies mid-mission so that we don't waste time, effort and potentially ammo due to being confused.

I know you can use Waypoints to mark them as an Ally but even that doesn't do the trick all the time. More so since Aiming makes it disappear while aiming.

 

I feel like a change could be made but it becomes a balance of "How do I discourage/tell this player not to attack without it triggering if they attack them by accident?" (such as AoE weapons or Melee) because while I feel a feature like this would be helpful mid-combat I don't want it to turn into something that just becomes a huge annoyance every time you so much as graze an ally while shooting or attacking.

[sunderthefirmament]

9 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Pretty much something I've noticed since...well forever I guess.

Whether it be through Syndicate Gear or Warframe abilities such as Shadows of the Dead and Mind Control (there's probably a ton of other stuff like Synoid Heliocor or Ballistica Prime)

Methods that result in having Enemies as Allies often tends to confuse players into attacking them even though it doesn't do anything. Just finished a mission with Nekros and came across a MR10+ Rhino who kept melee attacking my Shadows without realising they were allies. I've even caught myself doing it when I turn my brain off in a mission and I'm MR30+ so I have no excuse.

 

I'm curious if there is some sort of fix or change that can be done to help players distinguish between Enemies and Allied Enemies mid-mission so that we don't waste time, effort and potentially ammo due to being confused.

I know you can use Waypoints to mark them as an Ally but even that doesn't do the trick all the time. More so since Aiming makes it disappear while aiming.

 

I feel like a change could be made but it becomes a balance of "How do I discourage/tell this player not to attack without it triggering if they attack them by accident?" (such as AoE weapons or Melee) because while I feel a feature like this would be helpful mid-combat I don't want it to turn into something that just becomes a huge annoyance every time you so much as graze an ally while shooting or attacking.

There are some highlighting effects that clearly mark enemies, like the Argonak's scope, that mark territory mod for Kavats, and the Voidrig's 4.  I think we need more effects like this.  I wouldn't mind Overwatch style unit outlines (blue for allies, red for enemies).  That would really harsh DE's mellow, though.  They seem to be in love with painting enemies exactly the same color as the environments in which you find them.

 

Honestly, the real reason I became a shameless bramma spamma is that I got tired of squinting to figure out what was an enemy and what was scenery/a harmless ally/etc.  It's just easier to open up the map overlay and fire roughly in the direction of the red triangles.

[(PSN)Unstar]

There are definitely solutions, but they all have drawbacks:

• You could do color-coding, but that would only work if other effects (from both enemies and players) had their palettes limited so that there weren't overlaps.  This is an overall issue with color language in Warframe: since players can produce FX with any color, color alone can't be relied upon to have meaning.
• You could do some sort of unique marker, but that would add even more clutter to the already cluttered visual experience.
• You could change the reticule to a "no" symbol when aiming at an ally, but that only communicates the information in the moment you're aiming, and might also be expensive depending upon the performance costs of line-of-sight checks.

I have a feeling that if there was an easy solution without meaningful drawbacks, someone at DE would have already found it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
typo

[(PSN)crashteddy03]

Been playing for years, LR1 on two platforms and I still do this every time there's a Nekros in the squad. I'm pretty sure Nekros' "raised dead" are affected by his energy or emissions colours. Revenant's thralls have a marker over their heads, but it can be hard to spot in the heat of the battle.

I agree with you - it would be nice if this were more obvious somehow, but even then you'd still get people (myself included) not paying attention.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

11 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

I'm curious if there is some sort of fix or change that can be done to help players distinguish between Enemies and Allied Enemies mid-mission so that we don't waste time, effort and potentially ammo due to being confused.

I don't think there is, at leat not for me: I will literally run an invasion mission and end up targeting friendly troops then 2 seconds later my brain goes "oh yeah, I'm helping them!". good thing I'm not in the military eh?   I'd wager other people have done this before as well. if Nekros Shadows/Enthralled mobs are around, then they might get hit as well; I then wonder "why no damage, and only then check the map to see they are in fact blue dots (allies) not red triangles (enemies). 

the thing is, when you've played a game with as much killing as warframe, you sort of get to the point where the instant you perceive another character that isn't you, you end up shooting/melee'ing on the off chance they might be hostile. given how hectic combat gets and with high particle effects enabled especially, players are literally encouraged to "shoot first ask questions later", so I'd argue the game enforces this behaviour. it also doesn't punish it as there's no friendly fire outside of rad proc, which is very rare, so again, no reaon not to shoot first if in doubt lol.

 

[-Krism-]

That's something that never happened to me, the enemies are clearly different; & if the person doesn't realize on top of this that they're not doing damage or that the enemies aren't targeting them, I believe it to be the player's fault

[Pakaku]

Team colours and team-coloured outlines would go a long way in helping with the lack of at-a-glance visual info. Something like blue = ally, red = enemy.

[FA22_RaptoR]

24 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Team colours and team-coloured outlines would go a long way in helping with the lack of at-a-glance visual info. Something like blue = ally, red = enemy.

I think this is a solid idea.

In D2 several of the scopes would 'outline' the enemies in red showing you them even in darkness. I don't think it's a terrible idea to have an effect showing off enemies.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Giving the converted enemies "negative color palette" would be a shocking enough difference that I could ignore them for Real Enemies.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Maybe like Shield Ospreys, minions could have some sort of linking effect to the owner.

This likely wouldn't work when the minions are too far away, though, I don't know the coding limitations on this.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Yes there is one best solution, but DE are too cowardly to put it in. All you need to do is make converted enemies moan weirdly when allies shoot them. A lot of people will find that very awkward and embarrassing. So much so, they become more discerning and careful about shooting and attacking converted enemies. Of course some players might then also be encouraged to shoot such converted allies for the awkward moaning... Hey, I won't judge, but then the solution to that, is that if players shoot at converted enemies excessively to get such reactions, their player names will go on a hidden list and then matchmaking will seperate and put all those people together, and all the awkward embarrassed people in a different group/matchmaking instance. 

Easy! Next! 

[Slayer-.]

Having a Nekros in the SP circuit with a shield of shadows build can be distracting at times, when I run SOS I have a bright colour set up to help them stand out.

In the splash of explosive colours on the screen in SP circuit it can be quite easy to start shooting at one of the shadows but after a millisecond you notice it's friendly.

Had a Nekros yesterday I was using Mesa, it's great with a Nekros SOS seeing some players run colours that blend with enemies at times.