Energy siphon is kinda useless

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

9 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

"These other examples are terrible, so this is fine by comparison" is not how that works. Energy Siphon is horrid, and an absolute example of a "noob trap". There's a couple frames that can technically make use of it, since they literally don't care what's in the aura slot, but those are exceptions to the rule.

"There are worse choices" isn't my main point it's just a reply to them saying it's one of the worst auras, it really isn't.

Why is it a noob trap? Even just a tiny amount of energy gain early on in the game is huge, running out of energy is very common when you're starting out.

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Why is it a noob trap? Even just a tiny amount of energy gain early on in the game is huge, running out of energy is very common when you're starting out.

Abilities are a tiny fractional percentage of your output at those early levels, and the energy regen from Energy Siphon is a similarly tiny fraction of the total energy gain you're getting over the course of an early mission. It would take over 41 seconds for Energy Siphon to grant as much as a single energy orb (the small kind dropped by every other enemy unit in the early game, double that for those from containers). Like... c'mon, it isn't complicated to run the simple math.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Remember running old zenurik when it had the passive energy regen and stacking it with 3 or 4 energy siphon auras in the squad? What an era.

[chaotea]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Or just... not stack it? Or pick the highest (if players use not full mod)?

Well, all Aura mods stack. Its not particully viable to make just one not stack. And if the solution is to make all aura mods not stack, then they just become regular mods.

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Energy Siphon is horrid, and an absolute example of a "noob trap".

Not sure I agree with that one. I still use it alot. It might not be an amazing source of energy, but it is a useful mod for those warframes that realy need that little extra boost.

Its also very valueable for newer players, who dont have as many options for energy regen. It might not be as valueable to late game players, but thats fine. Not every mod has to be for every player.

I do think it could do with a small buff, but it doesnt need a major overhaul, and TBH in the later game energy regens to a big issue and way less important than say Corrosive projection.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

example of a "noob trap"

Lets see, enemies below level 50-300 usually don't require armor strip more so than damage

And since viral element mods and effective weapon are more useful against [usually grineer]

Hmm...    yes, energy siphon would assist a new player through the starchart through learning and understanding useful abilities,

Then when they have higher mastery weapons, they won't rely on abilities as often

Wow, i could never have guessed that a noob trap could be used to wait...   Help newbie players

Wow its almost like this CrispRPG has progression in mind, almost like a learning game with a 100 hour tutorial (the fun part)

[CoffeeElemental]

В 15.08.2023 в 17:15, (PSN)LoneRatatouille сказал:

0.6 per second

Nourish (Grendel's 2nd ability) can turn it into ~2 energy/second (considering that only 1 player's using it or you're playing solo). And it's not that hard to have Nurish's energy multiplier of 3-3.5.
And it's passive (kinda), you don't have to do anything about it. Just activate the buff and here you go.

Just saying.

I don't know what else to put on Grendel at this point. All other auras are either annoying to use or don't do anything significant.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

honestly ok with it getting a buff

[quxier]

6 hours ago, chaotea said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Or just... not stack it? Or pick the highest (if players use not full mod)?

Well, all Aura mods stack. Its not particully viable to make just one not stack. And if the solution is to make all aura mods not stack, then they just become regular mods.

 

8 hours ago, chaotea said:

On 2023-08-17 at 6:53 PM, quxier said:

Or just... not stack it? Or pick the highest (if players use not full mod)?

Well, all Aura mods stack. Its not particully viable to make just one not stack. And if the solution is to make all aura mods not stack, then they just become regular mods.

To be honest, as solo player, I would be more than ok if it gives e.g. 10 energy/second but wouldn't stack.

Still mod, frame, weapon, node etc should be good enough in any number of players. For example Fissures are horrible for solo players. The aura or Auras bocoming not stackable but have bigger boons would be fine. As it would work for any number of players.

Well, if you have any more idea you can post.

8 hours ago, chaotea said:

17 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Energy Siphon is horrid, and an absolute example of a "noob trap".

Not sure I agree with that one. I still use it alot. It might not be an amazing source of energy, but it is a useful mod for those warframes that realy need that little extra boost.

Its also very valueable for newer players, who dont have as many options for energy regen. It might not be as valueable to late game players, but thats fine. Not every mod has to be for every player.

0.6 e/s -> 100 second it let you cast:

- 4x 1st ability

- 2x 2nd

- 1x 3rd + 1st

- 4th

New players without knowing how-to or simulacrum access wouldn't get too much from it. Like... I would like to cast it few times to understand abilities.

And frames that needs "little extra boost"? Just slap pizza. No seriously, put it on some key and you don't have to use it.

2 hours ago, CoffeeElemental said:

 

I don't know what else to put on Grendel at this point. All other auras are either annoying to use or don't do anything significant.

Not exactly grendel, but you can put e.g. less strength and add 18% armor strip aura to make it full armor strip. I have done it with STyanax afair.

[Amolistic.]

You can make it an "archon stretch" if you have nourish subsumed though, since no one has an ability that deals elec dmg except volt and gyre or without subsumes.

Good for many situations, since orb drops can be inconsistent at times, and all you need is 230 str to get archon stretch level of regen, and you still can go further with some frames, getting like 2.4/s, exactly like 4 man team bringing energy siphon.

Frames that either have free aura slots like Rhino or someone you can think of can abuse this well, I guess? For some frames, you can just perfect your energy economy with just a little bit of help, like nourish + energy siphon with normal orbs, 0 yellow shards.

If cases allowed, energy siphon can shine too.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Amolistic.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Abilities are a tiny fractional percentage of your output at those early levels, and the energy regen from Energy Siphon is a similarly tiny fraction of the total energy gain you're getting over the course of an early mission. It would take over 41 seconds for Energy Siphon to grant as much as a single energy orb (the small kind dropped by every other enemy unit in the early game, double that for those from containers). Like... c'mon, it isn't complicated to run the simple math.

You forgot to add the additional energy gained throughout the mission. For example, eximus drop guaranteed orbs, now.

And new players aren't doing missions in 41 seconds. 

Anyone can lazily say "Ignore the entire picture and look at this measly 0.6". But the actual reality shows plenty of other factors at play. 

[ShogunGunshow]

Bringing up Nourish is bruh. 

Anyone that's at the stage of the game where they have Grendel and the Helminth isn't going to have problems with energy that requires Energy Siphon to fix. You have access to so any better tools for energy generation at that point.

Also, subsumed Nourish is borderline Gloom levels of broken, and it still only raises Siphon from 'garbo' to 'not so bad.' Frankly, that's dire, lol.

It doesn't have NO use, however. Someone brought up earlier the niche situation where you're playing a max efficiency Loki with a lot of duration, you can use Siphon to regenerate the energy cost of invisibility before it runs out. If you're running a spy where you're not going to be killing enemies and don't want to bother to swap out for zenurik (I mean there's no reason NOT to go zenurik in this case but I'll throw them a bone), it serves a purpose. So no, it's not literally useless. But that's on the level of saying Hydroid doesn't need a buff because of a very niche situation where he's technically useful. 

[(PSN)LoneRatatouille]

I doubt that someone at DE saw this thread but the new energy nexus is genuinely useful especially in void cascade as passive way to generate energy while you get to the next exoliser so you can fight the Thrax the as soon as you get to it an extra 0.5 or 1 energy on top of the current 3 would make it more appealing as in option in active combat similar to equilibrium but in its current state its a great mod especially on Ash and Loki to up keep their invisibility in spy missions, while fishing or any other scenario where your not going to kill enemys for energy.

 

Energy siphon should still get a rework where you get 1 or 2  energy for hitting an enemy with an equipped weapon or something similar instead of its current state where its just a worse energy nexus 

[ShogunGunshow]

My opinion on Energy Siphon has not improved, and in fact has gotten even worse as I've found myself starting to just exist at 45% efficiency on most of my frames and have had zero issues with energy. There's so much energy flying around in Warframe right now it's completely absurd.

Siphon exists to be something where, in 99.99% of cases, the only reason to equip it is because you're a newbie that somehow doesn't have anything else of the right polarity. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2023-08-15 at 7:26 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

Oh man I remember the days when Energy Siphon was THE THING. Everyone ran it and 2.4 e/s was HOT if you weren't running a Trinity as an energy battery.

Nowadays you just have access to so much energy you wonder if there's really a point to it being a resource anymore.

Yeah I guess you could buff Siphon. I don't think anyone would really use it tho.

It might be best to just have DE look into giving us a flat Energy Regen, that's higher or lower depending on the Warframe. Lower efficiency means lower Regen, for instance, so pure Power Strength builds don't just get a free pass.

That way, you could change Energy Siphon to increase the energy per second for your Warframes by increasing its efficiency for you and allies, making it better for higher Strength builds that need all the Energy they can get. Higher efficiency builds wouldn't get as much of a benefit so it sticks to being more of a specific Aura.

Obviously this has to come with more significant changes to Energy as a whole before anything like this would be okay. Energy Orbs should probably just become a flat buff to the rate of the energy restoration over a short time instead of a flat amount like they are currently, with most abilities that give Energy just increasing the regeneration rate to a hard cap. Ancient Disruptors really just need to change into a flat halting of Energy Regen, etc.

I would just take the flat amount of Energy you get away entirely. Make it all have a delay so it's easier to obtain overall, and while you can increase it, it has an actual cap so you actually want to try and build for something else. Energize could just have a higher duration for the Energy restored over time, as another example, to help differentiate the types of Regen and factors of it.

If DE feels like ability spam is too rampant, add a consecutive cast cost similar to RJ that fades away after a few seconds. Warframes with higher efficiency have an easier time with spam while Warframes with lower efficiency are designated to very few intermittent casts, as it was intended. Just simple changes like that would go a long way to improving the game for newer players especially.

Edited December 21, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[Thorham]

It still works on a Loki efficiency + duration invisibility build.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-12-22 at 9:00 PM, Thorham said:

It still works on a Loki efficiency + duration invisibility build.

im not entirely sure why they would neuter loki any further but alright

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

However, Subsumed Nourish does not provide healing and the explosion only applies 1 Viral stack.

[SDGDen]

On 2023-12-21 at 10:40 PM, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

It might be best to just have DE look into giving us a flat Energy Regen, that's higher or lower depending on the Warframe. Lower efficiency means lower Regen, for instance, so pure Power Strength builds don't just get a free pass.

at that point, wouldn't it be better to simply scrap energy as a factor and go for cooldowns instead?

 

think about it, if you have energy regen on a build that only spams one power, you're effectively already playing with a cooldown. 5 energy per second spamming a 25 energy power = 5 second effective cooldown on that power.

switching to a cooldown system would both prevent the meta from shifting to higher and higher energy regen builds (especially with nourish subsume now being a thing alongside energy nexus) and would make it so your effective cooldowns on your abilities are independent (thus meaning that previously unused abilities now become useful due to their now cooldowns. currently on for example ember you basically have the issue of "why would you ever waste energy on fireball if you could cast inferno instead", with cooldowns you could cast fireball when inferno is on cooldown)

for a cooldown system, i'd personally propose the default values of 10, 20, 30 and 40 seconds, with these values being offset a bit based on the type of warframe (casters for example would have lower base cooldowns especially on the ability they're supposed to be spamming, for example saryn's spores would have a lower base cooldown) with efficiency working the same way it does now (50% extra efficiency = halved cooldown duration, 75% = a quarter, which is also the maximum). 

i'd imagine this would require a lot of mods to be altered if they have anything to do with energy (for example quick thinking, energy nexus and the augur set bonus). things that give energy could simply lower or reset cooldowns, and things that used to give energy regen over time could give flat numerical cooldown reductions (for example energy siphon could lower your squad's cooldowns by 2 seconds flat) 

 

in all honesty, switching from energy to cooldowns at this point has a lot of benefits, but people will still dislike it because they can't spam their 4 every 2 seconds anymore (although i'd imagine there would be ways to do that: some abilities like garuda's bloodletting would be "cooldown resets", rage would lower cooldowns when taking damage and i'd imagine something like arcane energize being reworked into a chance of instant cooldown resets whenever you pick up an energy orb (with energy orbs lowering your cooldowns by 25% on pickup))

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

Well, looking at this in a full squad using energy siphon, we're talking about an easily maintained energy pool of 2.4 energy per second, plus the orb drops and using efficiency and duration mods. New players learning the game will love to have this setup and could learn to communicate with squad mates to arrange for this aura setup. Vets can take advantage of subsume and advanced mod sets that could easily boost this aura but also not even require it. Because of this, boosting energy siphon would be pointless because the goal would be to help new players control spamming and learn to coordinate while vets would see it as an option (as discussed regarding Loki, Ivara and Limbo). 

[Thorham]

On 2023-12-29 at 10:48 AM, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

im not entirely sure why they would neuter loki any further but alright

It's just a simple utility build for spy missions.

[ShogunGunshow]

14 hours ago, Thorham said:

It's just a simple utility build for spy missions.

If you're a newbie and decide to do spy really inefficiently, okay.

If you're going to no-effort it, though, it's better to go Wukong or Ivara. Or you can just get good and fast enough that it doesn't matter even if you do trip an alarm.

Energy Siphon being relevant to a build that was in vogue a decade of power creep ago doesn't mean it's not pretty useless today.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 15.8.2023 um 16:15 schrieb (PSN)LoneRatatouille:

The energy it generates (0.6 per second, ) is simply to small to be worth dedicating your aura slot to  it especially since every  other energy generation method (zenurik well spring, arcane energys, equilibrium...)  by far out shines it.

If it gave 2 energy per second like archon stretch or (even better increased the energy provided by energy sources like grendel's nourish [matching the name energy siphon even better]) the mod might finally be effective enough to be worth using over other aura's

 

But there are hardly any alternatives if you rush with wukong spy mission. arcane energize and new shards feel energy very well. But I've had missions where there's just not enough energy coming in. although my skills are actually optimized for it. and I already need auto-hack skill.

[ShogunGunshow]

23 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

But there are hardly any alternatives if you rush with wukong spy mission. arcane energize and new shards feel energy very well. But I've had missions where there's just not enough energy coming in. although my skills are actually optimized for it. and I already need auto-hack skill.

Then use zenurik.

I also question how 'optimized' you really are if you're running out of energy on a Spy. 

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2024-01-02 at 3:57 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

Then use zenurik.

I also question how 'optimized' you really are if you're running out of energy on a Spy. 

Why is it always "lets be as tas capable as possible"

Oh right no one takes their time to have fun because the game forces blitzkrieging instead of slow thought out movement and planning 

[Thorham]

On 2024-01-01 at 4:56 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

If you're going to no-effort it, though, it's better to go Wukong or Ivara.

How exactly are they better than just going invisible for 34.32 seconds for 12.5 energy using Loki?