Heavy Attack Efficiency should just be Combo Efficiency, and apply any time your Combo expires

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

When your combo timer expires, your combo is reduced entirely to its initial value.
This can be circumvented by using a heavy attack, even if it doesn't hit anything - efficiency will still be applied, and saves the combo count.

However - having to use a heavy attack to keep your combo up is entirely counter-intuitive and cumbersome.
The experience could be streamlined by just applying Combo Efficiency any time the combo would expire.

I propose this more streamlined way of handling Combo as a contender for the upcoming QOL changes.
(Again, this is not something that increases your power level in any reasonable way; you can do this right now by just hitting the heavy attack button when your combo is about to run out - it is just meant to streamline gameplay.)

[Tiltskillet]

Neat idea.  I think I like it better than the "Power Spike Lite" ideas.  Since, as you said, it's taking something we already can actively do but removing a clunky element of it.  Plus it puts some more value on building HA efficiency. edit: well not really.  Not unless one refused to use the Heavy Attack empty space method.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[(XBOX)Rez090]

Or, and hear me out, you can either use current mods to make the combo last longer or run Naramon focus school.

[taiiat]

so if i understand, you're suggesting that Heavy Efficiency would instead work vaguely like Power Spike, in that you'd lose part of your Hit Counter on each expiration? so like, +80% Efficiency would make you lose 20% of your Hit Counter every __ Seconds?

[Zakkhar]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

you can either use current mods to make the combo last longer or run Naramon focus school.

You forgot arcanes.

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Or, and hear me out, you can either use current mods to make the combo last longer or run Naramon focus school.

This is merely taking one thing we can already do--heavy attacking anything, even empty space to reset the combo decay timer--and removing the random "heavy attack the air or whatever" element.  Has no value now without Heavy Efficiency, and that wouldn't change.

Naramon and combo duration would still have the same value as now.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

We should focus on the problems with the game, not try to create more problems with the game.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Huh. That does sound clunky, but I never thought to do that in the first place and am not sure I’d do it even after learning about this

I wonder if it might be better to have the drain timer not reset after a heavy attack

Edited September 27, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Leqesai]

22 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

We should focus on the problems with the game, not try to create more problems with the game.

How is this creating a problem?

Streamlining "efficiency" to help mitigate a problem is working towards solutions...

[Tiltskillet]

16 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Huh. That does sound clunky, but I never thought to do that in the first place and am not sure I’d do it even after learning about this

I wonder if it might be better to have the drain timer not reset after a heavy attack

If it didn't refresh, it would need to at least freeze the timer for the duration of the heavy attack, as otherwise it would be inordinately punishing for slower wind-up weapons.

  But to me it feels pretty good that it refreshes.  That way if I'm near the end of the timer when I  heavy attack, I know exactly how much combo I'll have for the next one, rather than spending combo and immediately losing more from the timer expiring.   

If anything was removed, I think it would be the ability to do so without an enemy nearby since that just seems incongruous.  That said, I'd rather it was resolved in the way the OP suggests.

[(NSW)Greybones]

33 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If it didn't refresh, it would need to at least freeze the timer for the duration of the heavy attack, as otherwise it would be inordinately punishing for slower wind-up weapons.

  But to me it feels pretty good that it refreshes.  That way if I'm near the end of the timer when I  heavy attack, I know exactly how much combo I'll have for the next one, rather than spending combo and immediately losing more from the timer expiring.   

If anything was removed, I think it would be the ability to do so without an enemy nearby since that just seems incongruous.  That said, I'd rather it was resolved in the way the OP suggests.

Hm. That does seem fair; in its current form, it does seem more like a way to not get blindsided by sudden dropped combo instead of a way to maintain combo. If it refreshed on enemy hit but continued expiring on whiff, that seems more understandable than the current method which encourages players to play in an odd way (and I don’t think players would be normally trying to heavy attack the air anyways, so the main time they’d be heavy attacking would be against an enemy and the mechanic will come into play then)

[quxier]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Or, and hear me out, you can either use current mods to make the combo last longer

Even with that sometimes my combo goes "puff".

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

run Naramon focus school.

But I couldn't use Zenurik or other school.

6 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

We should focus on the problems with the game, not try to create more problems with the game.

This will create some problems. Not great. But... how can OP or another person reads your mind to know more?

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

6 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Huh. That does sound clunky, but I never thought to do that in the first place and am not sure I’d do it even after learning about this

I wonder if it might be better to have the drain timer not reset after a heavy attack

If it didn't refresh, it would need to at least freeze the timer for the duration of the heavy attack, as otherwise it would be inordinately punishing for slower wind-up weapons.

In my opinion all frames should have some "base" heavy attack efficiency and some "base" Naramon combo drain (instead of removing whole combo at once). Something big enough but not extraordinary. Values big enough that you still want to use Naramon/Heavy-efficiency if you want to go "full melee".

[Tiltskillet]

Would still love to see this.

[Azamagon]

15 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Would still love to see this.

Me too.

But there would need to be a higher minimum loss of combo points (like 5), to prevent a near perpetual "initial combo" quality to this.

And the Naramon focus school would need another rework (which it sorely needs)

Edited October 20, 2023 by Azamagon

[Xrylene]

On 2023-10-20 at 1:51 AM, Azamagon said:

Me too.

But there would need to be a higher minimum loss of combo points (like 5), to prevent a near perpetual "initial combo" quality to this.

And the Naramon focus school would need another rework (which it sorely needs)

Agreed on both counts, this change would be more intuitive than the current clunky way of maintaining combo points, and I believe when such clunkiness exists there are two solutions, to either remove the interaction entirely, or to streamline it into a better flowing solution.

As for Naramon, I chose it as my playstyle has always heavily emphasized melee, but it's quite hard to justify it for general play. It has niches, mostly in affinity farming or maintaining combo with certain setups, but most of the tree doesn't really work out. I'm not entirely convinced the tree needs to focus on melee to begin with, it could have benefits that do work with melee without needing to specifically emphasize it, but given what we have I'd think the tree would be most suited to one of three possible focuses. The first is emphasizing some sort of stack/buff oriented playstyle similar to what combo points already do, but in a broader sense(so not only with melee, it might be somewhat like how some arcanes or the galvanized mods focus on maintaining stacks). The second is leaning into the affinity farming and more broadly making the tree good for farming or leveling, something you might want to use when getting affinity or trying to get resources. The third possible angle would be looking into the mobility stuff it has and making that more of a focus, a tree you would use specifically for getting around fast in missions, but I find this questionable as void slinging is already quite fast anyway.

Regardless, combo efficiency as a stat would be an improvement over heavy attack efficiency and would fit into more builds as a nice stat to have, and would make existing heavy attack setups feel smoother to play, so I'm all for it.

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Xrylene said:

Agreed on both counts, this change would be more intuitive than the current clunky way of maintaining combo points, and I believe when such clunkiness exists there are two solutions, to either remove the interaction entirely, or to streamline it into a better flowing solution.

As for Naramon, I chose it as my playstyle has always heavily emphasized melee, but it's quite hard to justify it for general play. It has niches, mostly in affinity farming or maintaining combo with certain setups, but most of the tree doesn't really work out. I'm not entirely convinced the tree needs to focus on melee to begin with, it could have benefits that do work with melee without needing to specifically emphasize it, but given what we have I'd think the tree would be most suited to one of three possible focuses. The first is emphasizing some sort of stack/buff oriented playstyle similar to what combo points already do, but in a broader sense(so not only with melee, it might be somewhat like how some arcanes or the galvanized mods focus on maintaining stacks). The second is leaning into the affinity farming and more broadly making the tree good for farming or leveling, something you might want to use when getting affinity or trying to get resources. The third possible angle would be looking into the mobility stuff it has and making that more of a focus, a tree you would use specifically for getting around fast in missions, but I find this questionable as void slinging is already quite fast anyway.

Regardless, combo efficiency as a stat would be an improvement over heavy attack efficiency and would fit into more builds as a nice stat to have, and would make existing heavy attack setups feel smoother to play, so I'm all for it.

My idea for Naramon, considering its description being about knowing your enemy, would be to make it a big blend of sight, codex-related buffs, stealth, headshots/weakpoints, finishers, crits and with some melee specific stuff on top.

When i have time later after work, i can post more in detail what i mean.

[crazywolfpusher]

Naramon could certainly receive some love, nothing super fancy just some small changes. 

Void Levitation change to apply Knockdown instead of Lift. (Ground finishers got buff)

Opening Slam the most useless focus ability by far. Replace it to apply Stagger on 8m radius on transfer.

Killer Rush 50 % crit chance replace it with +15% parkour velocity and 30% Attack speed.   

[Azamagon]

On 2023-10-27 at 7:45 AM, Azamagon said:

My idea for Naramon, considering its description being about knowing your enemy, would be to make it a big blend of sight, codex-related buffs, stealth, headshots/weakpoints, finishers, crits and with some melee specific stuff on top.

When i have time later after work, i can post more in detail what i mean.

As promised (albeit late), here are the details of reworked Naramon:

School Description:

• Current -> This discipline focused on Knowing the Enemy, and the tacticians of Naramon believed that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior.
• Suggested -> This discipline focused on Knowing the Enemy, and the tacticians of Naramon believed that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior. Their skillful and unexpected attacks were a true testament to their beliefs.

Affinity Spike -> Mind Spike

• Reworked entirely -> Kills with finishers or kills via headshots/weakspots grants 2/3/4/5 energy. Works for both Operator and Warframe.
  • Note: I think all schools should have something energy-generating, as to knock down the Zenurik popularity a peg (with Zenurik getting a minor buff to something else, like CC or whatever)
  • I think a bonus to affinity (i.e. the current version) is such a weird meta bonus to have, as it has a generally finite usefulness, so I rather ditch its effect and replace it with something new entirely.

Power Spike

• In addition to its current combo decay effect, it also provides 10/20/30/40% heavy attack combo efficiency.
  • As per @Her_Lovely_Tentacles´s suggestion, combo efficiency would tie in nicely with this node's current effect, giving this node a powerful use both in and out of combat.

Opening Slam -> Opening Strike

• Tweaked -> When performing any type of melee attack from Operator (regular, slam, finisher etc), gain double combo buildup and +50% melee crit chance, for 10/20/30/40 seconds.
  • Combines it with current Killer's Rush AND massively eases up the trigger requirement.

Amp Spike - Combo Amp

• Revamped -> Dealing damage with amps gives melee combo points! Your Amp gain combo points equal to 6/8/10/12 divided by the amp's fire rate. Furthermore, each combo multiplier gives +10% amp damage (So 12x melee combo = +120% Amp damage), The melee combo counter is now visible from Operator mode as well.

Void Levitation -> Void Shadow

• Revamped entirely -> 1st ability. Makes your Operator and Warframe covered by a 5-meter bubble for 8/10/12/15 seconds, which makes you invisible to anything outside of the bubble, and increases your movement speed by 30%. Making noise removes the bubble temporarily. Has a 30 second cooldown (starting immediately upon activation).

Lethal Levitation -> Void Hunter

• Revamped -> Enterring Void Mode or Void Shadow creates a revealing aura with a 20/30/40/50 meter radius, which lingers on your Operator and Warframe for another 10 seconds after exitting Void Mode or Void Shadow's invsibility. Enemies touching the aura are highlighted through walls for as long as they remain within the aura and 5 seconds after. Gain +50% damage (for Operator and Warframe) per highlighted enemy attacked by the Operator, lasting 60 seconds and stacks up to 4x times.
  • Note: The aura can be refreshed in its duration when reentering invisibility via Void Mode or Void Shadow. Also, similar to Lethal Levitation, attacking the same target refreshes the duration, attacking DIFFERENT targets raises the bonus.

Sling Stun -> Mind Blast

• Revamped -> 2nd ability. Sleeps all enemies in a 10/15/20/25 meter cone in front of the Operator for 5/6/7/8 seconds, while also making them permanently open to finishers.
  • Essentially the same effect, but now as a seperate ability, rather than being tied to Void Sling.
  • The permanent finisher-opening applies even to sleep-immune enemies.

Killer's Rush -> Mind Rush

• Revamped -> Mind Blast has a 25/50/75/100% chance to also codex-scan the affected enemies. Get a flat +0,2/0,3/0,4/0,5x crit multiplier and +10/15/20/30% finisher damage against enemies which are affected by Mind Blast or if they are fully scanned in the Codex. Benefits both the Operator and Warframe.
  • The crit bonus is added AFTER all modding.
  • The crit and finisher bonuses temporarily applies even to sleep-immune enemies if you cast Mind Blast on them, and they aren't already fully Codex scanned.
    • If they are already fully Codex scanned, Mind Blasting them isn't needed, as you then have the crit and finisher bonuses against them permanently!

Mind Step and Far Sling are untouched.