Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[TheGuyver]

2 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Decaying dragon key interaction is dead, it returns to its original purpose of being a negative debuff while opening vaults. New mod is pre-change dragon key, it's a slight nerf because you lose a mod slot, would be nice if they made it an exilus mod.

I would be flabbergasted if they made it an exilus mod considering the sheer amount of survivability that shield gating provides people. A mod like that should really require a primary mod slot for what you're getting out of it.

[Tiltskillet]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

look forward to the changes, mostly the recharge delay buff added to certain mods, something only Gauss has access to currently.

FWIW frame 90% recharge delay reduction is available through Vazarin.

 

 

[Traumtulpe]

16 hours ago, mubsmubs said:

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one

The big problem with the old system was that you'd feel the need to have *less* shields. With the changes you are no longer punished for having a bigger max shield value, and this is just objectively good.

In place of the previous shield gating strategy (get your shields down to ~75 with a decaying dragon key, and get one of your abilities to restore that much via energy to shield conversion) there will likely be 3 options:

1. Same as before, except a) you need an extra mod slot, and b) you don't need to hit 100% shield restore per cast - say 85% would be totally fine now.
2. Rolling Guard + shield recharge delay mods. Not sure if this actually works, but if it does it might be problematic.
3. As much shields and / or shield restore as possible. Simple and effective.

As someone who has used shield gating quite a bit, I'm satisfied with the changes. It's an improvement for sure.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

4 hours ago, Hayrack said:

It's a nerf to Decaying Dragon Key. How come an item, that was supposed to put you closer to mission failure, gave you an ability to level cap? It's like missing 5 consecutive shots gave you higher critical chance - makes no sense.

I never understood this argument about the key, intentionally lowering your stats for certain builds has always been a thing just look at speedva who wants neg strength or lowering your range on limbo to have it not get nullified so easy or to not annoy your team as much, or having neg puncture/impact on rivens to increase the weighing on slash procs or even just using unleveled versions of the 60/60 mods to accomplish the same. Dont get me wrong I think upcoming changes are good I just never liked this argument.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I never understood this argument about the key, intentionally lowering your stats for certain builds has always been a thing just look at speedva who wants neg strength or lowering your range on limbo to have it not get nullified so easy or to not annoy your team as much,

Warfare, I don't think you tried very hard to understand it, lol.   Biggest differences are that these  are trading one strong thing for another strong thing that is  more useful situationally, and using a mod slot to do it.  Dragon Key past the Star Chart was trading one very weak thing for a very strong thing, and using an unlimited gear slot to do it.

10 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

...or having neg puncture/impact on rivens to increase the weighing on slash procs or even just using unleveled versions of the 60/60 mods to accomplish the same.

And mods are supposed to make things more powerful.    Rivens especially so, and the fully ranked 60/60 is still very useful, just not the most useful version on all builds.

What are Dragon Keys supposed to do?  Give us weaknesses.  The weaknesses can be worked around and often rendered moot, but before shield gating 99.9% of the time the keys couldn't result in a power advantage. 

After shield gating, one of the four...didn't exactly line up, wouldn't you say? :P

[D-Shear]

The shield changes will do nothing for frames, that do not already have shield gimmicks (hildryn,harrow,protea,etc.).

You will still never build for shields or god forbid use any of those useless recharge mods. It just needs a ticking slash procc to completely halt any shield regeneration and make those mods useless. The buff of shield DR from 25 to 50% is also overhyped. Shields right now are already paper, if I add another layer of paper on it, guess what it's just two sheets of paper now. It literally does nothing in the reality of actual gameplay. 

There was a reason why shield gating was a needed introduction to the game, because the bulk of the frames do not have any form of survivability outside of rolling guard and are strictly impossible to play otherwise in endurance steel path. 

All these changes will do, is buff all shield gimmick frames, nerf all glass cannons by stripping them of 1 mod slot to get back the old shield gating and push all invis frames and revenant even further, which is completely dumb. Invis and revenant needs to be deleted from the game in a first step before touching any of the survivability tools that are needed by the bulk of remaining frames.

Edited October 1, 2023 by D-Shear

[(NSW)warfare3376]

23 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Warfare, I don't think you tried very hard to understand it, lol.   Biggest differences are that these  are trading one strong thing for another strong thing that is  more useful situationally, and using a mod slot to do it.  Dragon Key past the Star Chart was trading one very weak thing for a very strong thing, and using an unlimited gear slot to do it.

Well in novas case the extra range from over extended is kinda a bad thing on her since it messes with her dr from null star by making the stars easier to lose, the only reason its ran is becuase of the neg to strentgh it gives

 

23 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And mods are supposed to make things more powerful.    Rivens especially so, and the fully ranked 60/60 is still very useful, just not the most useful version on all builds.

What are Dragon Keys supposed to do?  Give us weaknesses.  The weaknesses can be worked around and often rendered moot, but before shield gating 99.9% of the time the keys couldn't result in a power advantage. 

And what are negatives in rivens supposed to be? Theyre supposed to a downside that you have to pay to increase the other positive stats on the riven, but instead that negative gives a huge benefit sometimes even more benefit than the positive stats completely nullified the intended downside as a price to pay. Ive already gone over this topic too much and still really dislike the argument but considered that shield gating is being changed it no longer mater so I wont go any further on it.

Edited October 1, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[SirPaladin555]

17 hours ago, mubsmubs said:

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one, since you'd be investing mod slots for shield/shield recharge mods without any extra useful stats like the augur set. Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling. You can opt to slot in the new Catalyzing Shields to guarantee that 1.3 s, but again, you'd be sacrificing a mod slot as opposed to just using Decaying Dragon Key with the current system.

Please do keep in mind that I have done just the barest minimum of math on this, so feel free to give out any corrections.

I don't think shieldgating was ever intended to be used how people abuse it anyways , I think it's purpose was to give you a grace period after taking damage,  similarly in bioshock to the first shot being designed to never hit you from an enemy,  essentially a warning shot 

Plus the way shieldgating is used by the playerbase kinda diminishs the use of mods that increase shield with a few exceptions like hyldrin 

So I think this fix was a long time coming because again DE never intended for shieldgating to be used the way it was in gameplay

That said I think the new changes are fair and makes it more inline with its orginal intended gameplay use 

[Birdframe_Prime]

So, I'm late to the thread, but here's some thoughts;

People that are saying this is a nerf to shield gating are... not entirely wrong. Thing is with the old system, no matter what your shield value, if you were at Max, you got the full duration. Under the new system you'll need 350 to get the same effect.

That seems like a nerf because the current Shield Gating setups allow for those things like Brief Respite and so on to charge, say, around 140 Shields for a single cast of your 3.

This was objectively better when you had only, say, 75 Shields because of the Dragon Key, and would mean that a simple defensive ability like Molt would not only cleanse status, it would distract enemies and also completely top up your Shields for the next Gate.

But...

Think about it this way.

Under the old system if you had a max of 350 Shields, that play style was beyond you because, as many people in the thread have pointed out, you can't regen that amount with a single cast. It just doesn't work. And so you would only ever have 0.33 seconds of Gate, unless you had something that could restore you to full quicker.

Under then new system, though, the same build that restored 140 Shields... is better when you have a max of 350, than under the old system, because now instead of 0.33 you'll get around 1 second.

And that's objectively better than the current system for people that weren't using the Dragon Key.

Basically now everyone doesn't even need the low shields because you'll get almost as good of a function without it from the exact same builds. Ones that used a balance of Efficiency and Shield-gain to restore exactly the right amount of shields will suffer, that's true.

On the bright side, any build that has Brief Respite and an Augur mod on it will now objectively perform better, at any level, than it did before for survivability with the Shield Gate.

Now...

That all said?

I absolutely hate the move to make the Shield Gate last longer with larger shields.

Because it completely misses the point of Shields being an actual EHP function. A regenerating, accessible, health bar with mods that can help it restore faster, companions that can ping it back instantly on a situational cooldown, Abilities that can bring it back quickly... That has a lot of potential.

And that potential is wasted, again, because it's just a battery number for your Gate. Still. Before it was a low number battery, now it's a high number battery. And that hasn't changed a thing about Shields themselves as a Health Pool.

DE should have taken a far deeper look into Shields themselves and wondered, beyond Gating, why nobody mods for them. Why they're simply ignored compared to permanent mitigation factors, like Gating, like Abilities, like anything else but having a large amount of Shields.

So I'm disappointed about that.

But I do think that people who like, and use, Gating, will actually thrive under the new system. And players that never used Gating before will find it far more accessible and an improvement to their survivability.

[Leqesai]

32 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So, I'm late to the thread, but here's some thoughts;

People that are saying this is a nerf to shield gating are... not entirely wrong. Thing is with the old system, no matter what your shield value, if you were at Max, you got the full duration. Under the new system you'll need 350 to get the same effect.

That seems like a nerf because the current Shield Gating setups allow for those things like Brief Respite and so on to charge, say, around 140 Shields for a single cast of your 3.

This was objectively better when you had only, say, 75 Shields because of the Dragon Key, and would mean that a simple defensive ability like Molt would not only cleanse status, it would distract enemies and also completely top up your Shields for the next Gate.

But...

Think about it this way.

Under the old system if you had a max of 350 Shields, that play style was beyond you because, as many people in the thread have pointed out, you can't regen that amount with a single cast. It just doesn't work. And so you would only ever have 0.33 seconds of Gate, unless you had something that could restore you to full quicker.

Under then new system, though, the same build that restored 140 Shields... is better when you have a max of 350, than under the old system, because now instead of 0.33 you'll get around 1 second.

And that's objectively better than the current system for people that weren't using the Dragon Key.

Basically now everyone doesn't even need the low shields because you'll get almost as good of a function without it from the exact same builds. Ones that used a balance of Efficiency and Shield-gain to restore exactly the right amount of shields will suffer, that's true.

On the bright side, any build that has Brief Respite and an Augur mod on it will now objectively perform better, at any level, than it did before for survivability with the Shield Gate.

Now...

That all said?

I absolutely hate the move to make the Shield Gate last longer with larger shields.

Because it completely misses the point of Shields being an actual EHP function. A regenerating, accessible, health bar with mods that can help it restore faster, companions that can ping it back instantly on a situational cooldown, Abilities that can bring it back quickly... That has a lot of potential.

And that potential is wasted, again, because it's just a battery number for your Gate. Still. Before it was a low number battery, now it's a high number battery. And that hasn't changed a thing about Shields themselves as a Health Pool.

DE should have taken a far deeper look into Shields themselves and wondered, beyond Gating, why nobody mods for them. Why they're simply ignored compared to permanent mitigation factors, like Gating, like Abilities, like anything else but having a large amount of Shields.

So I'm disappointed about that.

But I do think that people who like, and use, Gating, will actually thrive under the new system. And players that never used Gating before will find it far more accessible and an improvement to their survivability.

Should also be noted that the larger shield gate periods are stacked onto beefier shields, in general. Double the damage reduction straight out the gate is a pretty significant boost. 

I'm not really sure the rationale behind all the shield buffs coming with this patch but I don't believe the current state of game difficulty really warrants so much shield power creep.

[Birdframe_Prime]

55 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not really sure the rationale behind all the shield buffs coming with this patch but I don't believe the current state of game difficulty really warrants so much shield power creep.

Not sure either.

On the one hand, it could be to try and do what I said; make shields a better Health Pool. On the other, it could be because they just don't know how to functionally improve shields beyond buffing them, and so it's just a throw-in for people that run Adaptation and want it to stack up faster from Shield damage.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Not sure either.

On the one hand, it could be to try and do what I said; make shields a better Health Pool. On the other, it could be because they just don't know how to functionally improve shields beyond buffing them, and so it's just a throw-in for people that run Adaptation and want it to stack up faster from Shield damage.

Yeah I definitely agree, but it just seems like a heavy player-side heavy buff when the current content doesn't need it. Maybe they're planning on bumping the difficulty a bit in the next year.

[(NSW)Greybones]

I’ll be honest, the more I hear about these shield changes, the less I’m thrilled. Shields were already in a fine place, I thought; you could build for them, and if you weren’t standing around expecting abilities to save you or overtuned weapons to kill enemies before they got a chance to threaten the player, shields worked pretty well to take chip damage but then recharge. Now it sounds like I’ll be equipping the Decaying Dragon Key to add some spice to the fights in higher-level content than current

 🤔 Though maybe the shieldgating changes will affect general survival….. I am curious about the reduced gating period at lower shields

Hmm. It does sound like an unnecessary buff to survival aimed at players who try to turn shields designed around movement into something that lets them stand around, but will need to see, I guess

[Marvelous_A]

I don't think it will shake the shield meta that much. If anything shield gating is even better now, Pillage can easily provide ~1000 shields and it now gives 2.5s invulnerability.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well in novas case the extra range from over extended is kinda a bad thing on her since it messes with her dr from null star by making the stars easier to lose, the only reason its ran is becuase of the neg to strentgh it gives

 

And what are negatives in rivens supposed to be? Theyre supposed to a downside that you have to pay to increase the other positive stats on the riven, but instead that negative gives a huge benefit sometimes even more benefit than the positive stats completely nullified the intended downside as a price to pay. Ive already gone over this topic too much and still really dislike the argument but considered that shield gating is being changed it no longer mater so I wont go any further on it.

All of that is directly tied to mods while the key is an item that requires nothing and goes into an infinite slot, an item with an intent to only be of negative impact when used so you can interact with something very specific in the game. And now with the coming changes you can still shield gate just the same as before by using the mod to enable it instead of the key. So falls perfectly inline with the modding system as opposed to the key that didnt, since you will sacrifice one thing to gain another, something you didnt do with infinite gear slots and a key.

Plus ontop of it all the people that use the key crutch currently will now be able to use it in content that otherwise locks you out of gear.

[Jarriaga]

21 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I never understood this argument about the key, intentionally lowering your stats for certain builds has always been a thing just look at speedva who wants neg strength or lowering your range on limbo to have it not get nullified so easy or to not annoy your team as much, or having neg puncture/impact on rivens to increase the weighing on slash procs or even just using unleveled versions of the 60/60 mods to accomplish the same. Dont get me wrong I think upcoming changes are good I just never liked this argument.

I'm someone who advocated for the DDK interaction to be killed and for the function to become a mod instead exactly as the norm is going to be now. I'll share some light into why the DDK itself was being singled by those like me: It comes down to consistency >>> Convenience in the context of overall game health and design.

Dragon keys were meant to be handicaps since day 1 and all other 3 remained as handicaps while the DDK no longer became a handicap due to a different mechanic being introduced to the game (Shield gating). The DDK existed before shield gating and had not been patched or touched or updated in years even before the introducing of shield gating. There is no universe or parallel reality in which DE made this intentional by willfully deciding to buff a handicap item so it could provide near-immortality by means of adding a new mechanic while leaving all other items in the same category as handicaps. 

This may still not make sense to you if you are of the mentality of "If given the choice to have an advantage, why should I choose not to?", but it's a matter of different priorities and definitions of what good game design is (Again: Consistency >> Convenience). 

20 hours ago, D-Shear said:

You will still never build for shields or god forbid use any of those useless recharge mods. It just needs a ticking slash procc to completely halt any shield regeneration and make those mods useless.

Arcane Deflection | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

20 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And what are negatives in rivens supposed to be? Theyre supposed to a downside that you have to pay to increase the other positive stats on the riven, but instead that negative gives a huge benefit sometimes even more benefit than the positive stats completely nullified the intended downside as a price to pay. Ive already gone over this topic too much and still really dislike the argument but considered that shield gating is being changed it no longer mater so I wont go any further on it.

The difference is intent. As mentioned in the beginning of this post the DDK exploit was born from an oversight tied to a different mechanic being introduced into the game. This is not true for Rivens, as DE introduced them with negatives from day 1 and they absolutely knew how unwanted some base stats were back then. There are even pre-release forum posts highlighting the possibility of removing unwanted stats (Impact damage) was going to be a "secret" positive.

This made using negatives as buffs via Rivens an intentional feature. It's balanced by the inability to lock Riven stats and the luck required to pull the desired "negative" effect.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Jarriaga

[ShogunGunshow]

Only thought is that I think it should be based on 'amount of shield damage taken over the last x second(s) or since shield break, whichever is sooner' instead of based on the shields you had on the final breaking shot. A large volume of hits coming in a short window is pretty common (in SP), but with Adaptation these are individually reduced enough that a 'breaking shot' is gonna give you a minimal gate - sspecially with the new higher baseline resistance. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Only thought is that I think it should be based on 'amount of shield damage taken over the last x second(s) or since shield break, whichever is sooner' instead of based on the shields you had on the final breaking shot. A large volume of hits coming in a short window is pretty common (in SP), but with Adaptation these are individually reduced enough that a 'breaking shot' is gonna give you a minimal gate - sspecially with the new higher baseline resistance. 

Oooh. I wonder how that’ll play out; less gating period sounds good, and I hadn’t fully considered just how the dynamic gating period works

[Mazifet]

I think it's great. It gives high shield value warframes a lot more playability, and people who still want the old system can have it at the cost of only one mod slot.

I've already prepared my Equinox build for these changes, so at least my shield gating setup won't be affected at all by the changes :p

[(NSW)warfare3376]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All of that is directly tied to mods while the key is an item that requires nothing and goes into an infinite slot, an item with an intent to only be of negative impact when used so you can interact with something very specific in the game. And now with the coming changes you can still shield gate just the same as before by using the mod to enable it instead of the key. So falls perfectly inline with the modding system as opposed to the key that didnt, since you will sacrifice one thing to gain another, something you didnt do with infinite gear slots and a key.

I really dont like this "its a free item" argument either as its kinda misleading as really the key didnt do much of anything at all, it didnt enable shield gating you can still do it just fine without it all it did was make it easier on frames with lower shield restoration means. You still need to mod accordingly in order to get any use out of the key, you still needed to mod on brief respite/or augur mods as well as make sure you have an ability to shield gate with that has high enough energy cost to fully replenish your shields with. You could argue that more shields should be a benefit and not a downside in which I would agree and is also exactly what DE is doing but since before these changes the shield gate duration was solely based on if you had max shields or not which is the only reason the key was ever used in the 1st place, was just to lower that threshold nothing more nothing less. You still need to reach the necessary maximum amount of shields for full shield gate so the key isnt magically giving you anything extra for free, all it does is lower the threshold which in my eyes is quite a good thing as it opens up a ton of build diversity. But now of course shield gate duration will be based on your current shields rather than them just being at max or not meaning that lowering your shields will never be needed completely devaluing the key without accounting for the nerf to it, Id be willing to bet that the current shield gate builds will still effective enough without the key now or the new catalyzing shields mod as they were prior with really the only change I see being needed is to use a higher cost ability to refresh shield gate and/or use an extra auger mod.

 

6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

The difference is intent. As mentioned in the beginning of this post the DDK exploit was born from an oversight tied to a different mechanic being introduced into the game. This is not true for Rivens, as DE introduced them with negatives from day 1 and they absolutely knew how unwanted some base stats were back then. There are even pre-release forum posts highlighting the possibility of removing unwanted stats (Impact damage) was going to be a "secret" positive.

Ok so what about nova then, her ability to speed enemies up was unintended, was that too justified by the fact the unintended feature started the same time as release? The key gate combo is literally the same as the interaction with negs on rivs and negs on corrupted mods on certain frames namely nova, baruuk, limbo, the reason its perceived differently is cause of how popular shield gating is and people like to hate on things that are super popular solely because they are popular. Also I would like to point out that we actually did know about the decaying key interaction between shield gate before shield gating was implemented to every warframe,  this interaction happened with hildryn back when shield gating was exclusive to her, to be fair it wasnt very popular as it rendered her unable to use any of her abilities but Id say it was still known enough. And even besides that the key interaction was pick up on quite early on and grew in popularity very quickly yet it took years to finally change, why? Its not like it been a long kept secret, I bet the reason it is finally getting some change or at least part of reason is because of how popular it has become and all the drama that came from that popularity. The reason know this is because with this upcoming update we are only getting improvements to shields when in reality shields were already in a fine state and what we really needed was improvements to health and armor, the shield changes are good and probably should have been a thing a long time ago but nowhere near as needed as buffs to health and armor are.

Edited October 2, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[TaraTSoni]

having to put the mod to have the 1.33 damage immunity for wf that do not regenerate shields by their own ability but with the Brief Respite aura is going to be a total annoyance, this was not well measured

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, TaraTSoni said:

having to put the mod to have the 1.33 damage immunity for wf that do not regenerate shields by their own ability but with the Brief Respite aura is going to be a total annoyance, this was not well measured

Incorrect. It is measured with more care than the previous exploitation of an unintended mechanic.

[TaraTSoni]

hace 7 minutos, Leqesai dijo:

Incorrect. It is measured with more care than the previous exploitation of an unintended mechanic.

incorrect than having to remove a mod from my build to have that mod that simulates the dragon key like before or having to spam much more times the ability to have full shields, which at lvl cap I doubt it is fast enough as I said this part was not measured well and 0.33 is not going to give me the vazarin

[Leqesai]

Just now, TaraTSoni said:

incorrect than having to remove a mod from my build to have that mod that simulates the dragon key like before or having to spam much more times the ability to have full shields, which at lvl cap I doubt it is fast enough as I said this part was not measured well and 0.33 is not going to give me the vazarin

You seem to think they want you to continue exploiting the shield gate mechanics. The mod slot cost of doing so is simply to acknowledge the abundance of players exploiting the previous system, as is implemented simply to quell some of the upheaval related to forum trolls spewing general toxicity related to the correction of unintended mechanics.

It is well measured.

Additionally, the new shield gate mechanics are generally better than the old. 

Just because you're clinging to an unintended interaction that exploited shield gating does not make correction of this behavior wrong. Be grateful you're getting ANYTHING out of this.

[TaraTSoni]

hace 5 minutos, Leqesai dijo:

Pareces pensar que quieren que sigas explotando la mecánica de la puerta del escudo. El costo de la ranura mod para hacerlo es simplemente reconocer la abundancia de jugadores que explotan el sistema anterior, como se implementa simplemente para sofocar parte de la agitación relacionada con los trolls del foro que arrojan toxicidad general relacionada con la corrección de mecánicas no deseadas.

Está bien medido.

Además, la nueva mecánica de la puerta de escudo es generalmente mejor que la anterior. 

El hecho de que se aferre a una interacción no deseada que aprovechó la activación del escudo no significa que la corrección de este comportamiento sea incorrecta. Agradece que estás obteniendo CUALQUIER beneficio de esto.

I said that part, not all of it, I like that mag volt hildryn harrow have more time of shield gating, I also didn't insult anyone to be toxic but wf that they don't regenerate shield by skill it's going to be more complicated and without counting the wf that become invisible I'll simply leave to break the hand with the vazarin every 3 seconds I wouldn't know what to modify in my build to put this mod he said it from experience not just by coming to throw hater