Can we take a look at the Archon Shard removal cost?

[drnlmza]

My complaint about the current cost is it adds extra layers of busywork to doing anything that touches more than 2 shards.

 

I want to remove 3 shards from frame X because I had a different idea, or remove all the shards from Y because I've now gotten the prime? It's remove 2 shards, bounce back a couple of screens to feed the beast, switch back to the shards, remove more, and repeat again if I'm removing 5 shards.

 

I'd much rather have each slot cost a different resource (even at a higher cost) just so I can stay on the shard screen until I'm done with what I want to do.

[StarCenturion]

I agree with the OP, and I have several additional comments about the Archon Shards that I think would make the entire system smoother and more fun for everybody, and to the point someone made, streamline the system to behave more like many other "modification" systems in the game.

1. Compromise on eliminating the removal cost - reduce it, and make it available to be paid via every type of Helminth resource.  That way, a player can redistribute/update 1 frame fully once per day by using all 5 resource categories.  It still provides a bit of a limit, but not nearly as painful and grindy.  You're not going to be swapping shards around like you would simply change a loadout, but you're not going to be wincing if you realize you made a mistake or want to shift gears on an entire frame's build at once (IE: Upgrading from Regular to Prime Warframe, for example...)

2. Balance out the still relatively unfair Tau-Forged system with an exchange system.  Even with the change that you get more odds of a Tau-Forged each time you don't get one from an Archon Hunt, the system is still painfully RNG on something that already takes a long time to accumulate.  Some players have two or three key Warframes that they play and that's it.  Others want to kit out everything.  Offer a thing where you can exchange any 2 Archon Shards for 1 of another color.  4 regular Archon Shards for a Tau-Forged of your choice.  2 Tau-Forged for 1 Tau-Forged of another color.  These options will let players auto-balance the shards towards what works for them, without eliminating the need to save them up/work on getting them because you're exchanging more shards than you're getting in the end.  If you play every Archon Hunt and buy from Chipper, you can get 1 Tau-Forged of the type you want every 2 weeks, even if you have horrible RNG.  If I have no interest in what Azure or Amber provide me, and I happen to get "lucky" and get several Tau-Forged of those, I should be able to push them towards Tau-Forged Crimsons if that's what I'm going for.  See suggestion #5 for mitigating the desire to make every Archon Shard a Crimson Shard.

3. Make the Archon Shards tradable.  DE wants to make money - and we players want the important stuff in the game to be tradable.  One of THE best features of Warframe, hands down, is that there's an open-market economy where items which are extremely powerful and valuable to a player can be sold or exchanged with friends.  It's what makes it a solid FTP game because you can earn your way to things that others simply want to pay for.  No item should be an exception to this mechanic except quest systems which teach you elements of how to play the game.

4. Have one of each shard available for purchase from Chipper every week.  We all have real lives and schedules, the fact that we can't buy the shard type we want on the week we happen to check in with Chipper is strange and unnecessary.  You also want to incentivize playing the Kahl missions now that you've updated them to be less grindy and more fun.  This does both things - players always have the opportunity to focus on getting some of the shard type they want, and there's a higher potential value in playing the Kahl missions if they happen to like them.

5. This is my most minor suggestion - in addition to reducing the costs of fully removing a shard, allow the option to change what a shard does within its color without having to remove it.  This way you can set up an appropriate "color theme" for a Warframe, and possibly start treating the shard setup/"loadout" of that frame in a similar way.  For example, you put a bunch of Azure shards into a frame thinking you needed increased Health to improve your survival, but found out that you need to mix in a bit of health regeneration or armor to smooth that out.  All of those enhancements are already Azure shards - so it shouldn't require removing the shard and putting it back on just to change what it does within-type. (Edit: Removed previous #5 entry about balancing the value of the different colors in light of the merge options and newfound ways of using each type in combination with each other.  Nice job on that, btw!)

Edited February 11 by StarCenturion

[MobyTheDuck]

With Reb bringing the idea of "pay to skip", I once again point to the Archon Shard removal cost.

Its just another bloat in the game that inflates the amount of time spent on nothing.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Still pretty lame they chose Bile for this , as it's by far the hardest and most annoying of the resources to stockpile.

Personally , I would give each slot a different  associated resource.

Ex: Slot 1 is always minerals, Slot 2 Organics, Slot 3 Bile, etc...

That way players would know the costs associated with each slot and would place their "permanent" shards in slots that have the most annoying requirements like Bile. Then they would put their temp shards or shards they intend to swap with a tauforged later in slots that have a common ressource as associated cost, hereby allowing to swap them without breaking the bank.

Edited October 31, 2023 by (PSN)Stealth_Cobra

[crazywolfpusher]

I wouldn't mind paying some plat for removal.

[Mark.The.Not.So.Bad]

On 2023-10-07 at 1:43 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

This again? People? Search for like-minded threads, or you're all going to get merged and lost in the shuffle.

So, just to be clear:

This is entirely intentional.

The cost is in place to purposefully slow you down, make you grind, and do your dilligence.

It's absolutely supposed to make you think about, and plan, your Shard build before you install it. By the point that you have access to Shards, and enough of them to be 'creative', you know what these changes are going to do for your build, you can predict the result. You can be creative by theorising what the results will be and starting the build with more caution.

The way to prevent regrets is to think about things for longer before you just slap the resource on your frame and hope it works.

This isn't 'modding' the way you've been doing it for the entire game so far. This is, and I will go back to the idea that incepted this; a semi-permanent buff system that's independent of modding as a reward for going to higher level content.

You're asking for creativity?

Nah, you're asking for freedom from the consequences of the oopsie you made by not being creative enough.

What a stupid attitude. Why would you defend such poor design decisions? Why would you defend DE at all? They have left bugs in the game from more than a decade ago, several different bugs that rob you of your mission completion and earned loot, matchmaking bugs, host bugs.... but REST ASSURED, if there's a bug where people are getting stuff they don't deserve, DE suddenly decides to stop ignoring the (no lie) MILLIONS of described bugs that they refuse to fix, and they leap in to prevent the plebs from getting a freebie.

You know, when people off the web decide they're going to white knight, all that does is embolden the devs to do less than they already do, if that's even possible.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Am 1.11.2023 um 07:06 schrieb Mark.The.Not.So.Bad:

What a stupid attitude. Why would you defend such poor design decisions? Why would you defend DE at all? They have left bugs in the game from more than a decade ago, several different bugs that rob you of your mission completion and earned loot, matchmaking bugs, host bugs.... but REST ASSURED, if there's a bug where people are getting stuff they don't deserve, DE suddenly decides to stop ignoring the (no lie) MILLIONS of described bugs that they refuse to fix, and they leap in to prevent the plebs from getting a freebie.

You know, when people off the web decide they're going to white knight, all that does is embolden the devs to do less than they already do, if that's even possible.

DOWN WITH THE BILE COST! 

Edited November 17, 2023 by (XBOX)K1jker

[(XBOX)K1jker]

I am legit almost out of bile entirely. This is the most punishing system cost wise we've had in the game since I started playing in 2014. And I paid millions of credits by turning in ayatan sculptures back when they had a cost. 

I wish the needed resource section would rotate daily and not be bile exclusively. It's ridiculous and punishes exploring, in Warframe.

[Squick]

Anti-serum and nav coordinates are basically free dumps for bile. So are javlok capacitors. Ticor plate, isos, and thermal sludge are all easily obtainable in large quantities. Given the level of resources you have, you are either swapping tons of shards every day, or you barely play the game at all. The bile cost is fine, and I say this as someone who fairly regularly swaps shards.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 17 heures, (XBOX)K1jker a dit :

I am legit almost out of bile entirely. This is the most punishing system cost wise we've had in the game since I started playing in 2014. And I paid millions of credits by turning in ayatan sculptures back when they had a cost. 

I wish the needed resource section would rotate daily and not be bile exclusively. It's ridiculous and punishes exploring, in Warframe.

wow, would you look at that utter lack of railjack resources :D

[VibingCat]

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

wow, would you look at that utter lack of railjack resources :D

Also Voidgel Orbs and Thermal Sludge are super easy to obtain passively in large amounts lol.

[Hexerin]

Adding another voice to the group that wants to see changes to the archon shard removal cost. Obviously just completely removing the cost would be ideal, but I'm also more than willing to discuss compromises that meet halfway on the subject.

One idea I've put forth in the past, is to change it from "50% bile" to "10% of all resources". This resolves two issues at once:

1. It makes it more manageable to remove shards, because the cost is spread over all the game's content.
   • Compare that to the current design, where you have to go do specific content islands.
2. Since the individual resources are only hit for 10% each, you can remove all five shards in one go if you need to.
   • Less menu juggling is a good thing with no downsides.

As a trade-off for the more accessible design, you're expending 10% more than you were before. Rather than 50% bile, it's 60% spread across all. That's fair though, because half the resources are significantly easier to maintain as they consume general star chart resources instead of specific things.

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

wow, would you look at that utter lack of railjack resources :D

You do realize that isn't the "gotcha" you think it is, right? The overwhelming majority of players hate Railjack.

32 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

Also Voidgel Orbs and Thermal Sludge are super easy to obtain passively in large amounts lol.

Ah yes, two things that you can only get from two specific star chart nodes. Nodes that have a finite list of actual stuff to get, which means once you've finished those nodes you're no longer going there and "obtaining passively in large amounts". Your argument is faulty and hilariously easy to counter.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hexerin

[VibingCat]

19 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Ah yes, two things that you can only get from two specific star chart nodes. Nodes that have a finite list of actual stuff to get, which means once you've finished those nodes you're no longer going there and "obtaining passively in large amounts". Your argument is faulty and hilariously easy to counter.

I have 1919 voidgel orbs and I haven't yet bought everything from Zariman. I didn't even farm them specifically. Have you ever heard of extractors, by the way?

[VibingCat]

22 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The overwhelming majority of players hates Railjack.

It looks like you hate several major portions of this game, so you skipped everything possible to get archon shards. Start playing the game, come on. 

[Hexerin]

18 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

It looks like you hate several major portions of this game, so you skipped everything possible to get archon shards. Start playing the game, come on. 

You should avoid making assumptions about people, lest you look like a fool.

I enjoy Railjack, and the Zariman is my favorite zone in the game (to the extent that I run it even though I'm done with it's obtainable content, because it's fun on its own merits). I also regularly go on Eidolon hunts (which has the bonus of letting me unironically field Trinity, since it's one of the only things she's still viable for). Lastly, the aesthetic of the Orokin and the unique traits of both Lua and the Void keep me going back for more in both of those as well.

I have no shortage of the resources that produce bile (and the resources that reset Helminth's penalties for over-consumption of them). However, much like the many others in this thread who are adamantly posting in opposition to the improvement of the game, you fail to understand that access to bile is literally completely irrelevant to the actual point being discussed.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hexerin

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

How many players is there that only have 2 or 3 Tau Forged Crimson Shards that regularly swap them out to other frames just for the tiny 15% Ability Str boost? 

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

One idea I've put forth in the past, is to change it from "50% bile" to "10% of all resources". This resolves two issues at once:

1. It makes it more manageable to remove shards, because the cost is spread over all the game's content.
   • Compare that to the current design, where you have to go do specific content islands.
2. Since the individual resources are only hit for 10% each, you can remove all five shards in one go if you need to.
   • Less menu juggling is a good thing with no downsides.

Yep.  I'd rather the cost was removed, but the big deal about it isn't the amount of resources, it's the spread.  There isn't any.  Look at Helminth subsume/injection costs for an example of DE making an effort to do this right. 

It can be both a bigger resource sink and more player friendly.

[Hexerin]

55 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yep.  I'd rather the cost was removed, but the big deal about it isn't the amount of resources, it's the spread.  There isn't any.  Look at Helminth subsume/injection costs for an example of DE making an effort to do this right. 

It can be both a bigger resource sink and more player friendly.

[VibingCat]

5 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You should avoid making assumptions about people, lest you look like a fool.

I enjoy Railjack, and the Zariman is my favorite zone in the game (to the extent that I run it even though I'm done with it's obtainable content, because it's fun on its own merits). I also regularly go on Eidolon hunts (which has the bonus of letting me unironically field Trinity, since it's one of the only things she's still viable for). Lastly, the aesthetic of the Orokin and the unique traits of both Lua and the Void keep me going back for more in both of those as well.

I have no shortage of the resources that produce bile (and the resources that reset Helminth's penalties for over-consumption of them). However, much like the many others in this thread who are adamantly posting in opposition to the improvement of the game, you fail to understand that access to bile is literally completely irrelevant to the actual point being discussed.

So your point seems to be: because the cost of bile is rather high and the Helminth takes a while to restore its appetite towards some kind of food, then we are not allowed to move our shards quickly from one warframe to another. Of course we shouldn't be, otherwise we would only need a few of them, and a little preparation before missions, to have all warframes maxed with no effort. You are blatantly begging for an exploit. Your argument about experimenting with different builds is inconsistent because shards do exactly what they say and you can easily calculate the final numbers in your arsenal before installing any. If that is not enough, get more shards or feed your monster again with different resources.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 16 heures, Hexerin a dit :

You do realize that isn't the "gotcha" you think it is, right? The overwhelming majority of players hate Railjack.

That wasn't the point, I don't care for the clout or attitude I'm just looking at the screens and pointing out a couple things. Watching the resources amounts leads me to believe there's more farm to be done before going all tryhard mode with shards and all what not.

Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, I'm neutral about the archon shard removal cost, but I'd just like to remind that the Helminth system was introduced with a mastery requirement of 15, showing it was initially intended for players deeper into the overall progression. Being the resource sink that it is, it's there to keep players at least farming to some degree.

Railjack was poorly received by the community due to game breaking bugs on release. Changes have been made, but no one bothered to say anything positive about them, so players still look at railjack with a sense of disgust they inherited from salty content creators. It's currently the single best mode to gather resources in terms of efficiency, but skill issue is a thing so... if you can do it, that's cool.

[LuckyCharm]

I definitely think it needs changing. I hate that so much of this game gets locked behind things like forma and resource costs for arbitrary reasons. Forma should be universal, open more options for modding the more you forma, not less, and as so here. The helminth being used for archon shards is ridiculous. Theres already huge resource sinks already in just using it for helminth things. Then you have those buffs that also need helminth resources. There really is no reason why the shard removal couldnt just be time gated like the rest of the game or just free to allow experimentation

[Qriist]

On 2023-11-17 at 4:53 PM, Hexerin said:

change it from "50% bile" to "10% of all resources"

I don't think the 50% bile cost is prohibitive to begin with, but this is by far the best suggestion I've seen from people desiring a change.

  

On 2023-11-18 at 9:55 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Helminth system was introduced with a mastery requirement of 15

They should up it to MR 25.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Qriist

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 38 minutes, Qriist a dit :

They should up it to MR 25.

If you consider how easy it is to get there with all the new additions, well, yeah, probably. But then you have everyone below that MR that will complain about it. Or we can maintain the status quo and keep having those same players going about resource shortage. It's a loss-loss situation regardless, you can't expect people to understand the purpose of a feature when it's advertised as more free oogabooga power and stats (even though being better at modding your crap does so much more for your builds than spending your entire stock of space vomit in adding roar and nourish to everything that moves).

[Lord_Drod]

Even if they removed the cost, you still wouldn't constantly swap, or at least I wouldn't because it's a hassle.  I have swapped full sets out, but its not something I do often.  So when I do, I'm okay with paying a penalty.  In bile, the resources I use are Nav Coordinates, Voidgel orbs, Morphics.  Also, as another poster mentioned RJ is great for Isos and Ticor plate.  You can get Thermal Sludge pretty quickly too.  It is very easy to stockpile all those and if you play the void at all, throwing all your argon there helps keep your resources up. 

I generally avoid giving cryotic because that's a min 15 digs, which takes a lot longer that most of those things to farm.  Same goes for the AntiSerum injectors.  Feeding Helminth Omega isotopes is basically giving it a filet mignon.

If you stockpile the easiest ones and spread them out, you won't have much of an issue and won't even have to use sentient cores.  The penalty for those is too high just to immediately have to use them again, if you are swapping a full set.  I'd rather just pay a temporary penalty on nav coordinates or voidgel orbs.

And really if you want to keep your resources, you can just run an hour of SP mot on boosters and probably get 30 argon?  Argon goes a long way at preserving resources if you mix in with Nav Coordinates, Voidgel Orbs, Morphics, Thermal Sludge, Isos, and Ticor plate.  You could even build up a decent stock of javloks just running fissures on whatever tile that is, and could stockpile a couple hundred orokin ciphers as a last resort after all that. 

If they reduce it though, it's fine with me.  My resources are all ways going up and I slot and remove shards plenty.  I would like to get some more RJ and thermal sludge resources to spread out.  Maybe they will add vainthorn to bile.

[Qriist]

5 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

But then you have everyone below that MR that will complain about it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

(even though being better at modding your crap does so much more for your builds than spending your entire stock of space vomit in adding roar and nourish to everything that moves)

Nourish and Roar are both very strong skills. My buddy has a really good Wisp build that features like 500% ability strength and Roar. I myself use Nourish on several of my favorite build so I totally get the appeal. I like to shake things up between different frames though!

For example. this is a fun Wisp build that I've been tinkering with centered around Critical Surge. I basically ping-pong between two fused reservoirs (which keeps things blind) while Shooting Gallery's jamming effect doubles as an extra layer of protection against the stuff that's closest to me. Arcane Steadfast plus Archon Stretch means I generally don't have mana issues despite the constant casting on negative efficiency.