When does DE grow up?

[(PSN)shiwan8]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

This.. raises questions as to how you even categorise what’s juvenile or adult, and what an adult option looks like

In this particular game the grown up way to do it would be letting people play the game, all of it, without making them do pointless tasks before they can start. The juvenile way to do it is to hide the task critical tools and not give any clues. DE loves the later part. 

[Psianide73]

I haven't done these puzzles for a while, but I don't remember there being any issue or frustration involved.

And even if there was, I certainly wouldn't want anything "removed from the game". I consider myself to be mature enough to not think like that, which makes the post title pretty ironic.

Also "juvenile"...

Edited October 26, 2023 by Psianide73

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

In this particular game the grown up way to do it would be letting people play the game, all of it, without making them do pointless tasks before they can start. The juvenile way to do it is to hide the task critical tools and not give any clues. DE loves the later part. 

I’m… not sure how this works as a categorisation system for something as nuanced as a game like this with a variety of playstyles to cater to, including searching for the answer on one’s own terms (like experimenting in general or searching for the components scattered elsewhere) but okay.

Stuff like scavenger hunts is… part of the playing though…? I’m not sure what your idea of playing is, but it doesn’t sound like it involves any sort of slowing down, which would make it understandable that if you’re blazing through the game with no time for any distance between point A and point B, you’re going to crash harder into the stuff that forces you to slow down than someone who’s meandering through where searching around isn’t far removed from just doing whatever

I don’t mind DE’s general approach of “Here’s a thing; figure it out yourself”, as it was part of what got me interested and still keeps me around with things like experimenting with builds. I think there could be a tiny bit more guidance in certain areas, but for the most part I’d be sad if not frustrated or downright bored if they didn’t give me a chance to learn on my own time

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

39 minutes ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

True. I just wish that I could access the fun without suffering first. 

Sometimes the way is through. Not around.

[(PSN)shiwan8]

1 hour ago, Psianide73 said:

I haven't done these puzzles for a while, but I don't remember there being any issue or frustration involved.

And even if there was, I certainly wouldn't want anything "removed from the game". I consider myself to be mature enough to not think like that, which makes the post title pretty ironic.

Also "juvenile"...

Do you think that changing something that does not work is a good thing unless it’s made worse? If your answer is ”yes” then we agree. It is that simple. 🤷🏼‍♂️

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Sometimes the way is through. Not around.

Sure. Does not apply here but you are correct. 

[(PSN)shiwan8]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m… not sure how this works as a categorisation system for something as nuanced as a game like this with a variety of playstyles to cater to, including searching for the answer on one’s own terms (like experimenting in general or searching for the components scattered elsewhere) but okay.

Stuff like scavenger hunts is… part of the playing though…? I’m not sure what your idea of playing is, but it doesn’t sound like it involves any sort of slowing down, which would make it understandable that if you’re blazing through the game with no time for any distance between point A and point B, you’re going to crash harder into the stuff that forces you to slow down than someone who’s meandering through where searching around isn’t far removed from just doing whatever

I don’t mind DE’s general approach of “Here’s a thing; figure it out yourself”, as it was part of what got me interested and still keeps me around with things like experimenting with builds. I think there could be a tiny bit more guidance in certain areas, but for the most part I’d be sad if not frustrated or downright bored if they didn’t give me a chance to learn on my own time

In your opinion, is it possible to make this exploration go too far? Let’s say that before every mission you would have to do something like playing the game’s instruments for an hour? This would never happen but lets pretend that it would. Would that be too much and make the experience less enjoyable to the point of you wishing they’d drop the pointles prepping that makes no difference other than it takes time for no reason? 

[PollexMessier]

2 hours ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

The actual puzzles are fine. K-drive races are also fine. The difference between these 2 is that the races do not force you to go for a treasure hunt with zero clues before you get to race. Things like this treasure hunt are pointless. The puzzles and the races are just content. 

K so your issue is mainly that you need to find the disks.

Well. That's very much a you issue. The disks are usually pretty easy to find. and if you're gonna complain about searching for things you might as well include the hidden items, hidden chest, and "labyrinth" objectives in duviri. They're all about as difficult in the finding things aspect, and more of a requirement than enigma puzzles.

I feel the puzzles would be a bit too straightforward and boring without the hidden disks. Makes them more interesting than just "Shoot the spiny thing till it shows the symbol you're supposed to get" That's a little bit too basic, even for a children's puzzle.

Certainly not a pointless task that needs to be removed.

You're not exactly forced to do them ether. The bird decoration's cool, but it's a decoration. Probably the least impactful form of cosmetic reward in the game. Or at least tied with flat and uninteresting emblems and sigils depending on who you ask. Cinta is cool but it's just a slightly different version of Nataruk, and weapon collecting pretty much stopped being relevant ever since Legendary ranks were attainable. Everything else from it is so irrelevant I forgot what else was even available.

Edited October 26, 2023 by PollexMessier

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

In your opinion, is it possible to make this exploration go too far? Let’s say that before every mission you would have to do something like playing the game’s instruments for an hour? This would never happen but lets pretend that it would. Would that be too much and make the experience less enjoyable to the point of you wishing they’d drop the pointles prepping that makes no difference other than it takes time for no reason? 

It’s possible to make everything go too far, so yes. If this was a game where I was enjoying playing the instruments, I would possibly enjoy it since I’m doing something I’m already willing and inclined to do, but if they constantly had me do it for an hour, it would understandably get kind of repetitive (like blazing through missions as fast as possible). Even then there would also be a question of frequency in a timespan; if it was something I did infrequently, it’s a lot less of a problem and gives a chance to look forward to doing it again. Usually that’s why I don’t sit around doing the same nodes on repeat for hours on end (last time I tried was when the Incarnons were released and I wanted to see how bad it would be to try and get the two in one week as soon as possible; no thanks, turns out I’m glad that I’ve got plenty of things to do instead of focus farm and that I’ve got a whole week to spend)

Thankfully this game is a good mix of variety at various speeds of play and poking around a localised area for all of half a minute every so often doesn’t strike me as terribly problematic since I often opt to slow down anyways (not a lot of fighting or general interesting game to be had if I perpetually focus on chasing infinite levels of speedclearing).

[Psianide73]

6 hours ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

Do you think that changing something that does not work is a good thing unless it’s made worse? If your answer is ”yes” then we agree. It is that simple. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sure. Does not apply here but you are correct. 

It does work, you just don't like how it works. That's the crux of the matter. The issue is you wanting something changed because 'you' don't like it... Grow up.

[Slayer-.]

8 hours ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

Good for you. I don’t think that we talk about the same thing though. The keys would be the symbols under the owl, right? That is the fun part. What is not fun is trying to find the power orbs before you can actually do the puzzle. But that is just an example of things that I think should be removed from the game. 

True. I just wish that I could access the fun without suffering first. 

The power orbs are easy to find, the symbols you then need to work out.

[Aruquae]

9 hours ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

don’t know what you expect as an example. I laser focused on an example which was a specific part of one task found in one game mode. The point of the post was specifically that and other things like it that serve no purpose in the game other than to make people walk away from those things. 

I responding to the thread before I read the comments. To keep away the bias, you know? After seeing you specify the Duviri bounty (right?) I can see that being annoying, okay tedious. When it comes to step by step content though, (especially bounties) we got a lot of fillers. If only the fillers had more variety, instead of searching for some special somethings.

And yes, when you brought that up my initial though was “fillers” because… they are fillers. Extremely boring fillers yes, but still fillers.

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

OP Post: That thing is hard, frustrating and doesn't work so need a change.

What I understand OP is saying: I have 2 neurons and I can't do a simple puzzle so I come to bother in the forum by demanding nonsense.


Seriously, why is this post still open?

OP: Why are there so many menial tasks in the game.

Coso: I don't know what menial means, so I'll create my own false narrative, then whine about it.

When someone describes a task as menial, they aren't saying it is hard Coso. They are saying it requires little-to-no skill to complete. You've blatant misrepresented the OP's stance.

The question shouldn't be "why is this post still open?", because that's pretty obvious, but rather "why are posts that like CosoMalvadoNG's posts in this thread, that do not even attempt to further discussion and at times instead spread blatant misinformation, still here?".

On 2023-10-24 at 11:43 PM, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

The game is FULL of 100% pointless menial tasks. Just one of these is the Duviri puzzle power orb searching. Why? There simply can not be a reason for it other than to make things unnecessarily tedious. The puzzles are fine but this thing makes it the equivalent of someone taking one piece of a puzzle and hiding it somewhere for no reason other than to be annoying. 
 

the game has many, many such things that hold exactly no value what so ever yet the player is forced to jump through these hoops to get access to the actual game. These things are fun to exactly no one and every single content update has at least one of them.

So, when do we get these things removed permanently? How many people have leave the game because some dev has to be a D to feel good about him or her self?

Game design and the associated psychology is an interesting field. There can be a variety of reasons for implementing certain tasks that seem rather pointless. The video below discusses an interesting aspect with regards to why so many games have a fishing mini-games (and by extension other rather menial tasks or mini-games). It is a little over 20 mins long, but I'd suggest at least checking out what is stated around the 2m05s mark, as they touch on an aspect called habituation - becoming accustomed to a repeated stimulus resulting in the response becoming more muted (Warframe is actually mentioned a little before that as well). 

Of course there may be other reasons and in some games with certain business models, I'd argue menial tasks require a disproportionate amount of time as required to break from the monotony of the main gameplay loop, in order to serve as a motivation for spending money.

[(PSN)shiwan8]

17 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

K so your issue is mainly that you need to find the disks.

Well. That's very much a you issue. The disks are usually pretty easy to find. and if you're gonna complain about searching for things you might as well include the hidden items, hidden chest, and "labyrinth" objectives in duviri. They're all about as difficult in the finding things aspect, and more of a requirement than enigma puzzles.

I feel the puzzles would be a bit too straightforward and boring without the hidden disks. Makes them more interesting than just "Shoot the spiny thing till it shows the symbol you're supposed to get" That's a little bit too basic, even for a children's puzzle.

Certainly not a pointless task that needs to be removed.

You're not exactly forced to do them ether. The bird decoration's cool, but it's a decoration. Probably the least impactful form of cosmetic reward in the game. Or at least tied with flat and uninteresting emblems and sigils depending on who you ask. Cinta is cool but it's just a slightly different version of Nataruk, and weapon collecting pretty much stopped being relevant ever since Legendary ranks were attainable. Everything else from it is so irrelevant I forgot what else was even available.

No. My issue is that the disks/orbs exist in the game in many forms and there should be none. They serve no purpose. Also your comparisons do not work because the other things are built so that all their parts serve a purpose. 👍🏻

[(PSN)shiwan8]

17 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s possible to make everything go too far, so yes. If this was a game where I was enjoying playing the instruments, I would possibly enjoy it since I’m doing something I’m already willing and inclined to do, but if they constantly had me do it for an hour, it would understandably get kind of repetitive (like blazing through missions as fast as possible). Even then there would also be a question of frequency in a timespan; if it was something I did infrequently, it’s a lot less of a problem and gives a chance to look forward to doing it again. Usually that’s why I don’t sit around doing the same nodes on repeat for hours on end (last time I tried was when the Incarnons were released and I wanted to see how bad it would be to try and get the two in one week as soon as possible; no thanks, turns out I’m glad that I’ve got plenty of things to do instead of focus farm and that I’ve got a whole week to spend)

Thankfully this game is a good mix of variety at various speeds of play and poking around a localised area for all of half a minute every so often doesn’t strike me as terribly problematic since I often opt to slow down anyways (not a lot of fighting or general interesting game to be had if I perpetually focus on chasing infinite levels of speedclearing).

I agree. My point still stands. Pointless menial tasks are pointless. 

11 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

The power orbs are easy to find, the symbols you then need to work out.

No and yes. 

[(PSN)shiwan8]

10 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

I responding to the thread before I read the comments. To keep away the bias, you know? After seeing you specify the Duviri bounty (right?) I can see that being annoying, okay tedious. When it comes to step by step content though, (especially bounties) we got a lot of fillers. If only the fillers had more variety, instead of searching for some special somethings.

And yes, when you brought that up my initial though was “fillers” because… they are fillers. Extremely boring fillers yes, but still fillers.

Duviri puzzle orb searching was just one example. There have been many in the history of the game and many exist even now. I just wish they’d remove the pointless parts of the game, things that don’t do anything but have to be suffered through anyway. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

I agree. My point still stands. Pointless menial tasks are pointless. 

I guess we have very different ideas of what’s pointless

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

The issue I take is calling a lot of these things puzzles at all.  Game devs in general have been putting scavenger hunts in games and swearing they're total brain teasers for quite a while now.  

"Find the hidden object" and things like escort missions are not engaging to me in the slightest.  It's lazy design, where instead of actual puzzles, it's just "waste time trying to find these things we hid in arbitrary locations."

[Kaggelos]

On 2023-10-25 at 1:24 AM, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

the devs trying to make the gamers hate the thing.

Rant incoming, brace yourselves:

Ah yes, because every creative out there making art, games, etc do it just to piss off their audience.

Guys no offense, but i never understood this way of thinking. Why the F*CK would any sane person create something to deliberately anger those whom he wishes to communicate with, that is clearly created to be fun, like, i dunno, a GAME?

"DE hates us! DE doesn't care! DE doesn't play it's own game! They ignore us!"

Dear your non-existent imaginary friend up there... just stop.

Not just you specifically, all of those who have that way of thinking. You just happend to be the latest example in a long line of such behaviours.

End of rant and sorry for being so irritated.

[Psianide73]

3 hours ago, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

Duviri puzzle orb searching was just one example. There have been many in the history of the game and many exist even now. I just wish they’d remove the pointless parts of the game, things that don’t do anything but have to be suffered through anyway. 

Like what? You state many are in the game... Give examples.

[Yakhul]

On 2023-10-24 at 4:43 PM, (PSN)shiwan8 said:

So, when do we get these things removed permanently?

Hopefully Never. They are a fun activity to some, sadly not to you, but just because they arent fun to you and your friends, does not mean they are not fun to the rest.

And this i can say with 100% certainty: People LOVE to complain about stuff that they do not like, get pitchforks and torches to demand the developers to remove they believe is useless.
And when said useless stuff gets removed, the same people start to HATE the developers for removing stuff from the game.

Ive seen this same stuff happen time and time again, and definitely players get more enraged when stuff gets removed, regardless if is "useless" or not.

 

[Delysic]

On 2023-10-24 at 5:02 PM, CosoMalvadoNG said:

You can go sir. Seriously what it's the point of this post?

 

cringe ass reddit post. learn to read what the OP said before you post a cringe comment

[rapt0rman]

 

[CommanderC2121]

58 minutes ago, Delysic said:

cringe ass reddit post. learn to read what the OP said before you post a cringe comment

Whyyyyyy did you necro this? What was the point

[Xzorn]

I would sum it up to a conflict of design.

By that I mean what you feel are pointless tasks were put there to immerse the player in the mission or sandbox they created. Letting you roam around like Skyrim or similar. However the conflicting side of this is that rewards have become entirely based on spamming missions fast as possible. This wasn't always the case. It mostlty started around the introduction of Acolytes and Relic Shares. Players spent much more time in-missions before then.

So you have this "Take it all in and enjoy" design wrapped around a spam go-go-go reward system.

[Xzorn]

I should add this holds esp true for Duviri where it feels like they switched gears half way.

I made a post about things you see and experience if you don't just spam and just enjoy the world.
There's a lot of things in this game I doubt a lot of players have seen or experienced cuz the reward system says bullet jump though.

 

Spoiler