Congratulations, DE. Hydroid is no longer worst frame in 2023 Warframe design

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

So Kavat's Grace and what's the other 0.3 missing?

Handspring

This.

Although honestly the hard landing part of the passive annoys me.  So the whole thing ends up closer to 0.3 or -0.7 of  a passive AFAIC.

edit:  Actually all of her abilities evoke similar feelings. 

Her 1 is fun, and that's it.  It so easily could be passable, but DE has tweaked it a few times, but refuses to make it more than mediocre.

Her 2 has the cool slow that is only valuable with low duration and without the augment.

Her 3 is horrible without the augment, and it has a bug that's halved its damage for at least 8 years.

Her 4 is usually the ability I take off of her, because I dislike how cheesy it is. And yet...Mesmer Skin is allowed to exist and is even more dumb.  And let's not forget that spin2win stance straight out of 2018.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Inaros at least has a synergistic design with his abilities and feed-off one another.

No.

You are wrong.

2 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

Caliban exists, and Valkyr is far from terrible.

Caliban is fine, just boring

Just being able to armor strip won't make frame good, in my opinion.

2 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

His passive just needs a tweak (and his first) else is good

Like making it "adapt" to all damage types and to 90% like Adaptation?

2 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Caliban's not as bad as game chat makes him out to be.  And better with the shield rework.  But, saying he's good except for just needing a tweak to his passive and 1 is setting aside a lot of dumber than average crap in his kit.

 His third ability is really solid with shield gating

Maybe if you play some specific way you get shields but my sentients just spawn/go/teleport out of my range. I rarely get shields.

45 minutes ago, trst said:

 

And as for Inaros who always gets mentioned he doesn't really need one for how popular he is despite having no abilities. Yeah it'd be nice for him to actually have a kit but lacking one isn't hurting him at all.

Inaros has abilities. To be honest I can explain 3 from 4 abilities, 1 augment. Even without playing it for a long time. Sevagoth has worse. Like it has 3 abilities with base form. Gloom (3rd) is nice and all, however 1st & 2nd is... meh. Like, I still cannot remember what are they are doing except different forms & "marking" enemies to get "Deathwell".

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

Caliban exists

Like biggest issue is first: let it use 4th, buff its damage/status-chance (slash is nice) and fix "collecting drop" bug...

Other abilities has issues as well.

[Sziklamester]

4 hours ago, .Fire_Fly. said:

winner for worst warframe in my honest opinion goes to Oberon he needs a rework asap he so far behind the times its painful.

...

 

Nope.

4 hours ago, Mazifet said:

Th? Oberon may not be meta but he can heal, cheat death, armor strip, tank, crowd control and do extra damage. In no way is he the worst frame.

Indeed my friend.

[sunderthefirmament]

This is Limbo erasure.

 

Yeah, Valkyr needs help. So do Inaros, Atlas, Loki, and Nyx. I would throw a few others on the pile too. But Limbo, the obsolete grief frame, should really come first.  He’s the one who needs a total overhaul.  Valkyr could be saved with a few strategic changes/tweaks. Inaros could be saved by putting overguard generation on his 3.
 

 

Limbo is the only frame that needs an entirely new kit.  

[(PSN)robotwars7]

top 5 needing a rework next in no particular order:

1. Valkyr

2 Inaros

3 Caliban

4 Nyx

5 Loki.

don't @ me, you already know I'm right. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This is Limbo erasure.

 

Yeah, Valkyr needs help. So do Inaros, Atlas, Loki, and Nyx. I would throw a few others on the pile too. But Limbo, the obsolete grief frame, should really come first.  He’s the one who needs a total overhaul.  Valkyr could be saved with a few strategic changes/tweaks. Inaros could be saved by putting overguard generation on his 3.
 

 

Limbo is the only frame that needs an entirely new kit.  

Kind of have to agree here, I can see most other Warframes working with maybe a single ability overhaul and mostly tweaks.

Limbo is kind of just awful since all he does is CC and cause annoying anti-synergy for Warframes with no strong damage abilities.

As for Inaros? I really don't think just putting Overguard on Sandstorm and not making it a better ability overall would do much. That one probably needs to just become a grouping ability so he does more than tank.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

As for Inaros? I really don't think just putting Overguard on Sandstorm and not making it a better ability overall would do much. That one probably needs to just become a grouping ability so he does more than tank.

Fair, but I think the 2 would be a better fit for a grouping ability.  It's criminally slow, and is likely his worst ability over all.

[0Midas0]

Weird. Doing steel path circuit at level 1908 with the bulk of the damage carried by a valkyr sure didn't feel like she was one of the worst warframes. 

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, 0Midas0 said:

Weird. Doing steel path circuit at level 1908 with the bulk of the damage carried by a valkyr sure didn't feel like she was one of the worst warframes. 

I've done my share of 3 hour SP survival runs with her. Considering how weak current enemies are after the heavy nerf they took to EHP and accuracy back in February 2020 the ability to hit level 2K enemies doesn't make the frame any less mediocre or poorly-designed.

Specially when taking into account the following point in this next quote:

7 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Her slide attack would strongly disagree.

Explicitly highlighting you can use her slide attack as a saving grace doesn't help your own argument.

It is cheese. A crutch. A forced behavior you do just to keep-up because of her dated design.

You can enhance the cheese with Helminth. You can push even more cheese now that Diriga is a Panzer that procs 5 status instead of just viral. But it doesn't change that it still is not only cheese, but her only "functional" tool.

At that point might as well replace Hysteria with a slide attack buff.

(And again: Name any other frame with clashing ability design in which 1 of their buffs gets negated by another one of their own abilities superseding it).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jarriaga

[RichardKam]

Seriously? Valkitty? When Caliban exists? When her 4 can shred SP enemies while being comfortably invincible yhe whole time?

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

Seriously? Valkitty? When Caliban exists? When her 4 can shred SP enemies while being comfortably invincible yhe whole time?

Read the post just above yours. You're not helping your case when highlighting that she's a glorified slide attack with legs that negates the buff provided by another ability of hers due to her poor design

[RichardKam]

2分钟前 , Jarriaga 说:

Read the post just above yours. You're not helping your case when highlighting that she's a glorified slide attack with legs that negates the buff provided by another ability of hers due to her poor design

Saying her slide attack is a cheese or crutch was like saying statstick for exalted weapon is a crutch, or Tenet Grigor energy disc is a crutch for a poor weapon, or _____ (insert whatever you don't like) is a crutch. No reason. Nothing. Except somehow you don't like slide attack. 

I am not arguing with this because it is literally pointless. Slide attack is a part of the system and is working properly on her.

Tweaking? Maybe. Worst frame? You must be under MR8 newbie so I won't blame you.

[Jarriaga]

34 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Saying her slide attack is a cheese or crutch was like saying statstick for exalted weapon is a crutch, or Tenet Grigor energy disc is a crutch for a poor weapon, or _____ (insert whatever you don't like) is a crutch. No reason. Nothing. Except somehow you don't like slide attack. 

I am not arguing with this because it is literally pointless. Slide attack is a part of the system and is working properly on her.

What I like or dislike is irrelevant. Every frame has 4 abilities plus a slide attack. You might as well highlight you can change her color palette while you're at it. 

34 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Tweaking? Maybe. Worst frame? You must be under MR8 newbie so I won't blame you.

This is hilarious after a profile check.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Saying her slide attack is a cheese or crutch was like saying statstick for exalted weapon is a crutch, or Tenet Grigor energy disc is a crutch for a poor weapon, or _____ (insert whatever you don't like) is a crutch. No reason. Nothing. Except somehow you don't like slide attack. 

I wouldn't use Jarriaga's same wording, but it does highlight something I find really frustrating about her:  her slide attack in Hysteria is so much more effective than her standard combos it actively discourages people who know that from using them.  It's way better for both single target and crowd dps.  I think something like 3x better for me without a macro. Which means something in the range of 10x better with one.

I'm sure there are players who are perfectly happy with it, but it's crappy design. 

[Hexerin]

OP, you pretty clearly don't play Valkyr if those are your actual thoughts on her.

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I wouldn't use Jarriaga's same wording, but it does highlight something I find really frustrating about her:  her slide attack in Hysteria is so much more effective than her standard combos it actively discourages people who know that from using them.  It's way better for both single target and crowd dps.  I think something like 3x better for me without a macro. Which means something in the range of 10x better with one.

I'm sure there are players who are perfectly happy with it, but it's crappy design. 

Nobody who actually plays Valkyr is happy with Hysteria. Speaking as someone who actually plays Valkyr. The reason the slide attack works is because it has actually relevant modifiers in the stance, while the standing and blocking combos do not.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record because I have to post this in every other thread I visit:

Compare those to her slide attack:

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Explicitly using her slide attack as a saving grace doesn't help your own argument.

It is cheese.

That's some backwards ass logic. How is using a part of a frame's kit like this "cheese"?

20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Every frame has 4 abilities plus a slide attack.

• Every frame has weapons, thus exalted=pointless?
• Every frame can use Madurai, thus every weapon buff=useless?
• Every frame can use Zenurik, thus every ability that generates energy=not needed?
• Etc...

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

but it's crappy design.

In what way? In the sense her normal combos could also be good? Sure. In the sense her slide attacks aren't novel and powerful in 2023 WF? Not a shot. I assume you mean something like the former and not that you're simply just straight up hating on the slide attack for no reason? Especially since almost no other melee wants to slide attack in 2023, so it essentially gives her a unique playstyle.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

OP, you pretty clearly don't play Valkyr if those are your actual thoughts on her.

I also got my second solo John Prodman poster with her.

Also: Am I the only person here who doesn't see Warcry's armor buff being negated/superseded by Hysteria's invincibility as anti-synergy/counterproductive and thus bad game design? Because everyone who tries to invalidate my points by attacking my playtime/skill makes no mention of this point I've highlighted 5 times in this thread already. Is it a case of "I don't care; therefore it's not a real issue"?

[Hexerin]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I also got my second solo John Prodman poster with her.

Also: Am I the only person here who doesn't see Warcry's armor buff being negated/superseded by Hysteria's invincibility as anti-synergy/counterproductive and thus bad game design? Because everyone who tries to invalidate my points by attacking my playtime/skill makes no mention of this point I've highlighted 5 times in this thread already. Is it a case of "I don't care; therefore it's not a real issue"?

The armor buff is for your teammates, or if you use Hysteria's augment (Enraged). This is super, extremely obvious to anyone who puts two braincells together for a moment.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[Jarriaga]

29 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The armor buff is for your teammates, or if you use Hysteria's augment (Enraged). This is super, extremely obvious to anyone who puts two braincells together for a moment.

Enraged doesn't turn off your invincibility while Hysteria is active. It reduces your time in Hysteria, but not the invincibility buff superseding the armor buff.

This is super, extremely obvious to anyone who puts two braincells together for a moment. You pretty clearly don't play Valkyr if you think Enraged turns off or disables her invincibility.

(Your own words are a two-way street if you are going to attack my playtime or intelligence over my argument).

You are clutching at pearls if you think a 50% armor buff based on your teammate's own *base* armor values (Not even modded value or Valkyr's own values) for every 100% power strength the casting Valkyr has is a "buff to your teammates" beyond the most pathetic and technical definition of a buff meaning +1 on paper regardless of how, inconsequential, ineffective, unremarkable and/or impractical that miserable +1 is in practice.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jarriaga

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

top 5 needing a rework next in no particular order:

1. Valkyr

2 Inaros

3 Caliban

4 Nyx

5 Loki.

don't @ me, you already know I'm right. 

6. Chroma

7. Vauban

8. Atlas

9. Oberon

10. Limbo

11. Trinity

[Hexerin]

22 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Enraged doesn't turn off your invincibility while Hysteria is active. It reduces your time in Hysteria, but not the invincibility buff superseding the armor buff.

This is super, extremely obvious to anyone who puts two braincells together for a moment. You pretty clearly don't play Valkyr if you think Enraged turns off or disables her invincibility.

(Your own words are a two-way street if you are going to attack my playtime or intelligence over my argument).

You are clutching at pearls if you think an armor buff based on their own base armor value (Not even modded value or Valkyr's own values) is a "buff to your teammates" beyond the most pathetic and technical definition of a buff literally being +1 on paper regardless of how, inconsequential, ineffective, unremarkable and/or impractical that miserable +1 is in practice.

Brainlet, listen up, cause I'm only going to say this once: Enraged makes Hysteria a duration-based ability with a cooldown between uses. The armor buff is for that downtime, when you're fighting without Hysteria's invulnerability.

You supposedly have nearly 20% of your playtime into Valkyr, yet you don't have a clue how she works. That's impressive.

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

Yeah Inaros is always in contention for this topic. While he can face tank a lot of content Warframe has to throw at him that is all I really know him for though.

Face-tanking is literally ALL he's good for. Everything else he has is slow, clunky, and unfun

1) Pocket Sand isn't bad if you actually care about using facestab builds, otherwise it's just a generic 1

2) Nomnomnom makes you invincible, at the very least, but deals such little damage you'll probably die of starvation IRL. Oh, and if Inaros fully eats something and creates a sand minion, Inaros staggers himself why would you do this DE?!?!

3) Imagine Caliban's 1 but somehow even worse in every way. It even f*cks up your camera, it is actively unfun and detrimental to use

4) Scarab Armor isn't bad, I guess, but it is NOT "ultimate ability" material

[RichardKam]

6分钟前 , Hexerin 说:

Brainlet, listen up, cause I'm only going to say this once: Enraged makes Hysteria a duration-based ability with a cooldown between uses. The armor buff is for that downtime, when you're fighting without Hysteria's invulnerability.

You supposedly have nearly 20% of your playtime into Valkyr, yet you don't have a clue how she works. That's impressive.

20% of playtime into Valkyr, or having 1% of knowledge of her kit repeated for 20 times? 

I have seen LR1 Revenant main who does not know his 3 can one-shot kill stuff. I have seen Nyx player complaining her 4 has poor damage output even at 250 strength. Of course there are LR3 players with 60% Wukong and k. Zarr usage in their profile. 

That's why we have the Circuit to filter out those with 1000 hours play time but still don't know how to play this game.

[Jarriaga]

24 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Brainlet, listen up, cause I'm only going to say this once: Enraged makes Hysteria a duration-based ability with a cooldown between uses. The armor buff is for that downtime, when you're fighting without Hysteria's invulnerability.

You supposedly have nearly 20% of your playtime into Valkyr, yet you don't have a clue how she works. That's impressive.

Brainlet, listen up, cause I'm only going to say this once:

1) Hysteria exists before Enraged. 

2) Hysteria can last as little as 15 seconds, and Enraged can last as much as 1 minute based on your mods and shards. Neither disables your invincibility regardless of how little or how long they are used. They both invalidate and supersede Warcry's armor buff while active.

3) The armor buff being there for when you're fighting without Enraged's invulnerability applies to both Hysteria and Enraged while inactive.

You supposedly have nearly XYZABC123 of your playtime into Valkyr, yet you don't have a clue how she works. That's impressive.

To summarize:

- You first tried to invalidate my playtime. 
- After that failed, you tried to reason that Warcry's armor buff is somehow there for Enraged despite Hysteria existing first.
- After that failed you tried to reason the armor buff is for when your are NOT actively using Enraged as if the same logic doesn't apply to Hysteria by default.

You are grasping at straws and clutching your pearls. Warcry's armor buff and Hysteria's invincibility are anti-synergistic with one another by default. That is poor game design, and no attempt at you invalidating me is going to change that.

11 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

20% of playtime into Valkyr, or having 1% of knowledge of her kit repeated for 20 times? 

I have seen LR1 Revenant main who does not know his 3 can one-shot kill stuff. I have seen Nyx player complaining her 4 has poor damage output even at 250 strength. Of course there are LR3 players with 60% Wukong and k. Zarr usage in their profile. 

That's why we have the Circuit to filter out those with 1000 hours play time but still don't know how to play this game.

This is funny as well. I'm absolutely certain you won't casually find a new criteria to filter out why I don't know how to play this game after I solo all Incarnon adapters. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

20% of playtime into Valkyr, or having 1% of knowledge of her kit repeated for 20 times? 

I have seen LR1 Revenant main who does not know his 3 can one-shot kill stuff. I have seen Nyx player complaining her 4 has poor damage output even at 250 strength. Of course there are LR3 players with 60% Wukong and k. Zarr usage in their profile. 

That's why we have the Circuit to filter out those with 1000 hours play time but still don't know how to play this game.

To be fair, Nyx is actually just completely broken these days. Also, Absorb's explosion has some pretty wicked falloff, so a lot of the times it actually just doesn't do much damage to things you'd expect it to. I really hope she gets looked at someday, she's got a soft spot in my heart as one of my earliest favored frames.

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Brainlet, listen up, cause I'm only going to say this once:

1) Hysteria exists before Enraged. 

2) Hysteria can last as little as 15 seconds, and Enraged can last as much as 1 minute based on your mods and shards. Neither disables your invincibility regardless of how little or how long they are used. They both invalidate and supersede Warcry's armor buff while active.

3) The armor buff being there for when you're fighting without Enraged's invulnerability applies to both Hysteria and Enraged while inactive.

You supposedly have nearly XYZABC123 of your playtime into Valkyr, yet you don't have a clue how she works. That's impressive.

To summarize:

- You first tried to invalidate my playtime. 
- After that failed, you tried to reason that Warcry's armor buff is somehow there for Enraged despite Hysteria existing first.
- All that failed you tried to reason the armor buff is for when your are NOT actively using Enraged as if the same logic doesn't apply to Hysteria by default.

You are grasping at straws and clutching your pearls. Warcry and Hysteria are anti-synergistic with one another by default. That is poor game design, and no attempt at you invalidating me is going to change that.

Sorry, can't hear you over how you have no clue how Valkyr works.