Support Warframes solo are not supporting anyone, let's have three companions to excite their effectiveness.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

in my Opinion, we should be able to equip three companions (one kavat, one Kubrow and one sentinel) just like how in Railjack you have three crew members.
balance has to be made of course, for example no two companions can equip the same bond mod, etc

having a full "squad" in your solo play, that are much less powerful than other players, and much less sustainable fulfills the "bring a healer" dream of all support Warframes.  

if having one of each kind is OP, then you can have only three of the same type, like three kubrows...again, for balance issues, only one type of the Kubrow, kavat can be present...no two smeetas for example.

 

now you can fulfil your "bring a healer" dream and "release the hounds" dream...what more could you possibly want?

 

[Hexerin]

It'd make more sense to build off the existing specter system, and have the player able to bring a set of three warframe specters with them into missions (like how things work in the Index). This would let the player customize them, like you already can with the gear item specter you get from Rescue missions.

I'd still enjoy being able to field three MOAs on my solo runs though.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

52 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

having a full "squad" in your solo play, that are much less powerful than other players, and much less sustainable fulfills the "bring a healer" dream of all support Warframes.  

that sounds incredibly pointless. we already sort of have this in syndicate missions, where 2 faction NPCs "aid" you in combat: in reality all they do is draw some agro and then die halfway through, you don't even have any incentive to keep them alive, such as maybe being awarded some extra standing for bringing their people back alive. they're basically free specters, but worse than specters. maybe I just don't get it because I enjoy being solo more than others do, but this seems like a lot of work for no real benefit IMO.

if you're going to do a mission solo with a support frame, do it because you like playing as a support frame; you shouldn't need to have AI companions to feel validated in your choice. as for being able to heal and release hounds, Voruna has yet to receive any Augments, so you might still get to fulfil that dream, or something similar.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I fail to understand how a "suport" frame can't support itself AND be able to complete the mission objective solo. I mean, do "support" frames just go into mission with no weapons? Hide in the corner spamming abilities? AFK while the DPS do all the work?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Pretty sure I’m supporting myself as Trinity or Oberon and any companions I got and not having to faff around with any outside sources of healing when I may want to equip something else or build in a different way…

[(NSW)Greybones]

I do like companions to help me feel like a healer when squads make it pretty clear they’re not interested in relying on anyone but themselves as individuals by specifically taking their most “Complete the mission solo” gear and builds possible, but I’ve… already got that? I don’t need to simulate a squad of four players who want to play with me, I’m fine with just whatever I can summon or get given in-mission

edit: Oh oh oh! I recently learned about an aura that has a bonus but drains the shields of heavy attacking spamming players who can’t figure out when and where is a good time to heavy attack. I was thinking of getting that to play around with for personal reasons, but now you’ve given me an idea where maybe I could force players to rely on me as support because they’ll be killing themselves and I’ll be there to get them back on their feet, ready to kill themselves again. 🤔 Now you got me thinking

Edited December 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I fail to understand how a "suport" frame can't support itself AND be able to complete the mission objective solo. I mean, do "support" frames just go into mission with no weapons? Hide in the corner spamming abilities? AFK while the DPS do all the work?

you didn't quite get the point of my thread.

the problem is that supporting yourself, isn't really the pinnacle of support gameplay...you're just being a tank or a buffer.
the idea here is to have more than one pet, so you can find yourself needing to heal them, buff their damage etc to get that support feeling...it has nothing to do with whether supports are viable or not.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Pretty sure I’m supporting myself as Trinity or Oberon and any companions I got and not having to faff around with any outside sources of healing when I may want to equip something else or build in a different way…

well maybe I'm looking too much into it, but there are abilities in the game that only supports allies and nothing else, like Hildryn's Haven (without blazing pillage) and while it can buff my pet's shield and defense objectives too, most of the time I don't have a use for it...and I don't want to subsume it because Hildryn has a worse ability than it.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

edit: Oh oh oh! I recently learned about an aura that has a bonus but drains the shields of heavy attacking spamming players who can’t figure out when and where is a good time to heavy attack. I was thinking of getting that to play around with for personal reasons, but now you’ve given me an idea where maybe I could force players to rely on me as support because they’ll be killing themselves and I’ll be there to get them back on their feet, ready to kill themselves again. 🤔 Now you got me thinking

you're like Syndrome from the Incredibles who actively sets up crimes so he can show up during them and act like the hero. lol

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

that sounds incredibly pointless.

I don't understand the mentality of "no thanks" in these forums...like what's wrong with having three pets? you've said it yourself companions are dumb and weak, buuuut if you multiply that stupidity 3x you get more chances at some smart moves here and there.

what I'm trying to say is, having three pets is not bad, if one Kubrow failed at an attack, the other might just succeed...and it all comes back to you being a good support to buff their damage health and attack speed...it's not pointless, I'm basically brainstorming a new playstyle specifically for supports.

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , (PSN)Hopper_Orouk 说:

in my Opinion, we should be able to equip three companions (one kavat, one Kubrow and one sentinel) just like how in Railjack you have three crew members.
balance has to be made of course, for example no two companions can equip the same bond mod, etc

having a full "squad" in your solo play, that are much less powerful than other players, and much less sustainable fulfills the "bring a healer" dream of all support Warframes.  

if having one of each kind is OP, then you can have only three of the same type, like three kubrows...again, for balance issues, only one type of the Kubrow, kavat can be present...no two smeetas for example.

 

now you can fulfil your "bring a healer" dream and "release the hounds" dream...what more could you possibly want?

 

So in a full squad of 4 tenno, we will have 4 warframes and 12 companions flying around in a mission?

No.

[(NSW)Greybones]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

well maybe I'm looking too much into it, but there are abilities in the game that only supports allies and nothing else, like Hildryn's Haven (without blazing pillage) and while it can buff my pet's shield and defense objectives too, most of the time I don't have a use for it...and I don't want to subsume it because Hildryn has a worse ability than it.

Those’ll be for when players use alternative build/loadout/mission combinations where they might need some help because the combination results in some kind of fighting happening.

Usually though players’ll just make sure they’re way overbuilt for the content; jump into a level 40, they’ll be built like it’s level 80 via redundant amounts of damage/survival when they could be customise alternatively. Jump into level 80, they’ll be built like it’s steel path, and so on and so forth. Mostly though they just cut out all the preceeding level ranges by building for whatever is as high as they want with the most minimal of shifting anything around, so long as it wrecks everything and turns a multiplayer mission into a single player one with no need from support (is why I often prefer playing with AI companions, because then we can actually fight alongside each other instead, though I still don’t think I need more beyond what we already have access to)

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

you're like Syndrome from the Incredibles who actively sets up crimes so he can show up during them and act like the hero. lol

Haha. You’re not wrong in that I’m a lot less magnanimous than being a healer may imply; I like keeping people alive because it can be fun to keep track of the status of others and strive to be there when they need me, but if someone’s hogging all the game and I’m left twiddling my thumbs, I’ll break them myself to give me something to do (plus I’ll be juggling the mission as well, so that could be fun)

Edited December 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

26 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

So in a full squad of 4 tenno, we will have 4 warframes and 12 companions flying around in a mission?

No.

Not correct...think of it like Railjack...3 additional crew replaces three missing players.

in public squads you will have only one kubrow/companion.

 

in solo you can "replace" the lack of a squad with two additional companions.

can you possibly read a few sentences post before you comment or was it not explained enough by me?

[RichardKam]

2分钟前 , (PSN)Hopper_Orouk 说:

was it not explained enough by me?

This. You did not elaborate this point in your original post.

Also, how about other tenno joining the session when mission is in progress? One of your companion was randomly removed?  

Anyway, the idea is too much trouble just to cater for a slightly better experience in being a support frame. Still a big no from me.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

in my Opinion, we should be able to equip three companions (one kavat, one Kubrow and one sentinel) just like how in Railjack you have three crew members.
balance has to be made of course, for example no two companions can equip the same bond mod, etc

having a full "squad" in your solo play, that are much less powerful than other players, and much less sustainable fulfills the "bring a healer" dream of all support Warframes.  

if having one of each kind is OP, then you can have only three of the same type, like three kubrows...again, for balance issues, only one type of the Kubrow, kavat can be present...no two smeetas for example.

 

now you can fulfil your "bring a healer" dream and "release the hounds" dream...what more could you possibly want?

 

Nah.....nope

[PheneX02]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

in my Opinion, we should be able to equip three companions (one kavat, one Kubrow and one sentinel) just like how in Railjack you have three crew members.
balance has to be made of course, for example no two companions can equip the same bond mod, etc

having a full "squad" in your solo play, that are much less powerful than other players, and much less sustainable fulfills the "bring a healer" dream of all support Warframes.  

if having one of each kind is OP, then you can have only three of the same type, like three kubrows...again, for balance issues, only one type of the Kubrow, kavat can be present...no two smeetas for example.

 

now you can fulfil your "bring a healer" dream and "release the hounds" dream...what more could you possibly want?

 

Then what's the point of 'solo', in a solo mission?

[(NSW)Greybones]

I don’t think you’re on the wrong track or anything, personally. I just find that what we’ve got can be sufficient; I do think that if there was going to be more companions, maybe it could be something a little more interesting or different than just “Extra cats and dogs to take care of”

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I already hate escort missions. No way do I want to buff minions so they can do 10% more damage. It's bad enough to have to babysit operatives in Defense missions but to actually mandatory have to "support" NPC so they deal more damage than the players? No thanks. I'll let my WuClone with Kuva Bramma do all the support.

[ReddyDisco]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

the idea here is to have more than one pet, so you can find yourself needing to heal them, buff their damage etc to get that support feeling...it has nothing to do with whether supports are viable or not.

What? you want to sit in a corner and let your pets/summons play the game for you? sounds incredibly boring to me

[Reitrix]

6 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Pretty sure I’m supporting myself as Trinity or Oberon and any companions I got and not having to faff around with any outside sources of healing when I may want to equip something else or build in a different way…

Healers in Warframe are kind of pointless anyway. 
You're either immortal (Shield gate, Invuln ability, 90% DR abilities etc) or dead. Warframe does not have an in-between state because our health values are tiny compared to the actual damage that gets thrown at us. 

Trinity is one of my favourite frames. I currently run a Piercing Roar setup on her with 4x Cast Speed shards and Natural Talent. I cast Blessing to get the DR for myself, if someone else gets saved by that ... Happy accident i guess. 
I cast EV to fuel Roar spam for knockdowns, damage for myself, DR and crit bonus (updated puncture). If a squadmate benefits from that ... Good for them?

For the OP, We support ourselves and if a squadmates benefits, cool. But its not like anyone sensible is setting out into a public mission with the explicit goal of "support the squad". 
We are 4 individuals who happen to be in the same mission. Not a team with proper roles. As much as i would like to see support frames become valuable to a squad, thats just not how Warframe does. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

35 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Healers in Warframe are kind of pointless anyway. 
You're either immortal (Shield gate, Invuln ability, 90% DR abilities etc) or dead. Warframe does not have an in-between state because our health values are tiny compared to the actual damage that gets thrown at us. 

Trinity is one of my favourite frames. I currently run a Piercing Roar setup on her with 4x Cast Speed shards and Natural Talent. I cast Blessing to get the DR for myself, if someone else gets saved by that ... Happy accident i guess. 
I cast EV to fuel Roar spam for knockdowns, damage for myself, DR and crit bonus (updated puncture). If a squadmate benefits from that ... Good for them?

For the OP, We support ourselves and if a squadmates benefits, cool. But its not like anyone sensible is setting out into a public mission with the explicit goal of "support the squad". 
We are 4 individuals who happen to be in the same mission. Not a team with proper roles. As much as i would like to see support frames become valuable to a squad, thats just not how Warframe does. 

Dude, stop either standing around getting shot to pieces and dying or using unbalanced Steel Path as your metric for deciding how squishy we are. Even in early SP there’s a gradient of heath so long as you, you know, get out of the danger zone when it pretty clearly becomes a dangerous area to hang around in and you start getting low, and when you start pushing the levels in the unbalanced game mode you should be dead at some point in time.

This idea that the game is designed around a binary state of either alive or dead is nonsense

[RichardKam]

47分钟前 , Reitrix 说:

Healers in Warframe are kind of pointless anyway. 
You're either immortal (Shield gate, Invuln ability, 90% DR abilities etc) or dead. Warframe does not have an in-between state because our health values are tiny compared to the actual damage that gets thrown at us. 

Above SP level 500? Maybe you are right.

Anything below that, including 20 mins SP conjunction survival with acolyte, you can health tank just fine.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Hm. This is surprisingly difficult to expand upon in an interesting way; we’ve already got things like specters and crew, we’ve already got some companions in general. I was wondering if an objective could be a new addition, but then we’ve got things like Arbitration defense objectives and the refugees

I’m coming around to the idea of More Things To Keep Alive in solo, but not sure what else to add (yes, aside from the extra companions, though you know my thoughts on that)

Edited December 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Reitrix]

52 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Dude, stop either standing around getting shot to pieces and dying or using unbalanced Steel Path as your metric for deciding how squishy we are. Even in early SP there’s a gradient of heath so long as you, you know, get out of the danger zone when it pretty clearly becomes a dangerous area to hang around in and you start getting low, and when you start pushing the levels in the unbalanced game mode you should be dead at some point in time.

This idea that the game is designed around a binary state of either alive or dead is nonsense

Way to completely miss the point mate, calm down. Where did that rage even come from?

At which point through any gameplay session is your HP or Shield slowly going down? The answer is never. 
You are either taking inconsequential damage because you are using some form of mitigation, Be it raw Armor, 90% DR from Abilties like Splinter Storm, Adaptation or simple mobility, or you are dead. 
Remember why we got Shield Gate in the first place?

This is what i mean by your frame being either alive or dead with no inbetween. 
You will never spend any noticeable time at a health value lower than 100% where anyone would think "man i wish there was a Trinity around to patch me up!" 
Because the incoming damage is mitigated to be low enough that you can keep yourself at full and when it isnt being mitigated by anything at all, in your own words "you will be shot to pieces".
And when you get to siginificantly higher levels, that mitigation isnt enough to keep up, so you get one shot. Again, eliminating the use for a healer. 
There is no room for a Healer to actually heal in Warframe. Your frame is either in no need of healing (through mitigation or self sustain) or simply dead. You getting angry and inferring poor play from me (When i said absolutely nothing about dying myself) wont change that. 
 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Reitrix

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Way to completely miss the point mate, calm down. Where did that rage even come from?

At which point through any gameplay session is your HP or Shield slowly going down? The answer is never. 
You are either taking inconsequential damage because you are using some form of mitigation, Be it raw Armor, 90% DR from Abilties like Splinter Storm, Adaptation or simple mobility, or you are dead. 
Remember why we got Shield Gate in the first place?

This is what i mean by your frame being either alive or dead with no inbetween. 
You will never spend any noticeable time at a health value lower than 100% where anyone would think "man i wish there was a Trinity around to patch me up!" 
Because the incoming damage is mitigated to be low enough that you can keep yourself at full and when it isnt being mitigated by anything at all, in your own words "you will be shot to pieces".
And when you get to siginificantly higher levels, that mitigation isnt enough to keep up, so you get one shot. Again, eliminating the use for a healer. 
There is no room for a Healer to actually heal in Warframe. Your frame is either in no need of healing (through mitigation or self sustain) or simply dead. You getting angry and inferring poor play from me (When i said absolutely nothing about dying myself) wont change that. 
 

Yes I can track my health and shields going down while I’m playing and getting periodically hit, that’s how I know what to do as Trinity or any other healer and when to do it. Stop getting hit so much in such a short span of time; even when we’re hit with lucky shots in the part of the game with more options and better balance designed around the notion of earning more things to use and play around with (which SP is not that part, especially not high-level), we’re not immediately dead as long as you do things like get out of there, keeping your distance and on the move which can have a huge impact on your survivability

I remember why Shieldgate was introduced, and it wasn’t to be abused as a binary Alive or Dead system in high level SP; it was to stop us from getting one-shot from the few enemies designed around hitting us so hard there was a chance they could indeed one-shot us, especially if we were sitting on some low health from the gradients of damage we’d already taken.

I’m talking to someone who has really bizarre idea of what game design looks like while sounding really confident about it; games that are designed around one-hits have a whole different philosophy around their gameplay than what Warframe does. I’m not even sure if you aren’t just instant-killing enemies with a few highest-level builds, because if you are, I can tell you that there’s meant to be a gradient of health for them too, and it’s there when you start exploring alternative combinations of build and mission  like the game is designed around doing

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Yes I can track my health and shields going down while I’m playing and getting periodically hit, that’s how I know what to do as Trinity or any other healer and when to do it. Stop getting hit so much in such a short span of time; even when we’re hit with lucky shots in the part of the game with more options and better balance designed around the notion of earning more things to use and play around with (which SP is not that part, especially not high-level), we’re not immediately dead as long as you do things like get out of there, keeping your distance and on the move which can have a huge impact on your survivability

I remember why Shieldgate was introduced, and it wasn’t to be abused as a binary Alive or Dead system in high level SP; it was to stop us from getting one-shot from the few enemies designed around hitting us so hard there was a chance they could indeed one-shot us, especially if we were sitting on some low health from the gradients of damage we’d already taken.

I’m talking to someone who has really bizarre idea of what game design looks like while sounding really confident about it; games that are designed around one-hits have a whole different philosophy around their gameplay than what Warframe does. I’m not even sure if you aren’t just instant-killing enemies with a few highest-level builds, because if you are, I can tell you that there’s meant to be a gradient of health for them too, and it’s there when you start exploring alternative combinations of build and mission  like the game is designed around doing

See, again, straight to accusations of bad play. 
I feel like i'm talking to a drunk. 

You acknowledge that Shield Gate was indeed implemented to prevent us getting one shot, So you seemingly understand that we can and will be one shot. And as a reminder, Gating was introduced before Steel Path. Meaning we were susceptible to oneshots regularly enough in pre-Steel Path content that they had to implement a solution to it. 

I want to show you something:


Do you know what this is? 
It shows my Nidus with near capped Armor DR taking a full 1000 damage in a singular frame. 
Want to know what happened immediately following this? 
I went operator and Vazarin dashed to gain full damage immunity and all my health back in a couple of seconds. 

Tell me, Where is the 'gradient' to the damage taken? 
For reference, this was a basic Zariman Steel Path Exterminate. That damage came from a Shield Lancer. 
My horrific crime worthy of such incoming damage? I had cleared a room of mobs and moved through a door into a new room. There wasnt even a mob close enough for me to pop a Link on before this happened. 

My whole point thus far, and this is for the OPs suggestion too, is that 'Support' Frames aren't Healers in a traditional partyplay sense. 
Their kit is first and foremost for keeping themselves alive. 
No other player in a squad 'needs' to be healed because any damage they happen to take can and will be restored through their own gameplay. 
The entire game is designed around being soloable. Every frame is perfectly capable of clearing every mission without issues.

Healers in MMOs and other multiplayer games have very low personal damage as their entire existence is bent towards healing others. 
This is not true of Warframe.
Trinity is perfectly capable of clearing any mission a more damage oriented frame can and just as easily because the primary source of damage is our weapons, NOT our abilities (with some obvious exclusions, some frames ability damage scales really well lol)
So the OPs suggestion is just at odds with how 'healing' frames operate. We do not need NPCs to keep alive, we're not in the mission to keep others alive in the same way an MMO healer joins a party to keep tanks and DPS alive.
And the reason for that is as I've described in my posts thus far. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

See, again, straight to accusations of bad play. 
I feel like i'm talking to a drunk. 

You acknowledge that Shield Gate was indeed implemented to prevent us getting one shot, So you seemingly understand that we can and will be one shot. And as a reminder, Gating was introduced before Steel Path. Meaning we were susceptible to oneshots regularly enough in pre-Steel Path content that they had to implement a solution to it. 

I want to show you something:


Do you know what this is? 
It shows my Nidus with near capped Armor DR taking a full 1000 damage in a singular frame. 
Want to know what happened immediately following this? 
I went operator and Vazarin dashed to gain full damage immunity and all my health back in a couple of seconds. 

Tell me, Where is the 'gradient' to the damage taken? 
For reference, this was a basic Zariman Steel Path Exterminate. That damage came from a Shield Lancer. 
My horrific crime worthy of such incoming damage? I had cleared a room of mobs and moved through a door into a new room. There wasnt even a mob close enough for me to pop a Link on before this happened. 

My whole point thus far, and this is for the OPs suggestion too, is that 'Support' Frames aren't Healers in a traditional partyplay sense. 
Their kit is first and foremost for keeping themselves alive. 
No other player in a squad 'needs' to be healed because any damage they happen to take can and will be restored through their own gameplay. 
The entire game is designed around being soloable. Every frame is perfectly capable of clearing every mission without issues.

Healers in MMOs and other multiplayer games have very low personal damage as their entire existence is bent towards healing others. 
This is not true of Warframe.
Trinity is perfectly capable of clearing any mission a more damage oriented frame can and just as easily because the primary source of damage is our weapons, NOT our abilities (with some obvious exclusions, some frames ability damage scales really well lol)
So the OPs suggestion is just at odds with how 'healing' frames operate. We do not need NPCs to keep alive, we're not in the mission to keep others alive in the same way an MMO healer joins a party to keep tanks and DPS alive.
And the reason for that is as I've described in my posts thus far. 

Let me just get something straight; I keep telling you to stop roping unbalanced Steel Path into this conversation (the game mode’s a mess of modifiers that do not equate to any sort of balanced play), you keep dropping examples that involve Steel Path.

Do you… make a build that sits in Steel Path, then take it outside of steel path and somehow expect the rest of the game to be designed around it? Is that supposed to make sense or something?

So right now I’m hearing either you stand still getting shot up when you use alternative builds in the content designed around alternative builds, or you…. build for Steel Path and then wonder why you’re dying in Steel Path, then when you aren’t in SP you’re still built like you are and rocking so much redundant survival (and probably weapon damage if I had to guess) that the game doesn’t give you a reason to need healing when it normally would if you weren’t built way beyond the content you’re doing and instead were exploring alternative ways to build.

That strikes me as some weird expectations going on there. I’ll watch that video and see what kind of playing you end up doing

Wait, that’s no video. Did you say you were doing this solo? Do you know what 4 times as many enemies will do to your survivability? Because SP has 4-player spawns for one player if that’s what you were doing. Note that 4-player does not equal 1-player

Hm. No wait, you said this was Exterminate

edit: Wish that was a video or something

Edited December 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones