Does Limbo need a buff?

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

However, I feel like at the very least, things immune to being rifted (like Eximus) should at least be hit with a forced slowing effect.

I don't know about Limbo specifically, but a lot of CC abilities could use this.

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

From what I've heard mentioned on the forum before, Vauban's Bastille does this, so it wouldn't even be a new concept.

Also Tornadoes, and--in a super extreme way--Stomp / Celestial Stomp.

[Cerenax]

No, Limbo needs to be redone from scratch so his abilities aren't a nuisance to the rest of the squad. Not being able to kill enemies and grab loot is a major no no and would be a deal breaker even if Limbo was actually super powerful.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, Cerenax said:

No, Limbo needs to be redone from scratch so his abilities aren't a nuisance to the rest of the squad. Not being able to kill enemies and grab loot is a major no no and would be a deal breaker even if Limbo was actually super powerful.

You still "grab" loot, it just staples itself to your hip until you leave the rift. As for enemies, yea... They should absolutely remove Limbo's passive creating those little gates, and the ability for Banish to affect teammates. Cataclysm is fine though. It's obvious where it is and when you're in it, and also very easy to enter/leave it as needed.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No, people should learn how to use and understand him first. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

I, honestly, don't know if Limbo does or doesn't need a dev pass or a rework.

That said,  I would rather see DE workshop potential changes with Limbo mains before presenting or making meaningful changes.

This venue is simply a bad place for that kind of discussion as Limbo is a fairly nuanced play experience and general opinions will muddle the frame as a whole imo. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Most CC frames in the game offer crowd control and something. Usually, if CC is their main draw, that 'something' is fairly minor or niche, or just silly and fun. Like, Vauban has CC and orbital space lasers, Gara has CC and a difficult-to-maintain damage option. Nidus offers Crowd Control and immortality (at the double cost of being a snowball frame that's exclusively stationary).

Limbo, ever since his first rework, established a niche as the CC frame. His defensive power was as close to absolute as possible - for a good chunk of the game, the only faction that could realistically touch him was the Corpus, and even then, being vigilant and building appropriately could easily allow you to overcome that floor. In exchange, 3/4ths of his kit were ways to enable the last quarter. Stasis.

The problem is that this all-or-nothing ran into problems with gameplay variety. DE still isn't good at this, but I'll gladly admit, being a Limbo main (which, for reference: I very much am) for Scarlet Spear was miserable. Your whole job was just to recast your 2 and your 4 over and over and over and over and that was it. That was the whole mission, because Limbo couldn't provide anything more. And even then, Nuke Warframes could do that job better, so you weren't even the MVP, you were just the backup for them - which is it's own kettle of problems but let's not talk about that right now. And of course, that isn't exactly fun for everyone else, or even really that fun for the Limbo.

Solution: Eximus units. I agree that their addition was healthy for the game, but now Limbo no longer fits, because he can't fit into his one (dubiously valuable) niche, and he doesn't have anything else to offer.

 

I've toyed with rework ideas for years, albeit never posting much, but I very much agree that Limbo needs a rework these days. Preferably to something that doesn't remove the unique rift mechanic, but perhaps leans into more of the idea of a clever tactician as is implied in his lore?

Well, I've always wondered why DE didn't just make Limbo actually getting out of the Rift at all a punishment. It really doesn't make any sense for Banish to incentivize popping in and out of either realm, or for him and his allies to even want to hop between both. The only time you should be doing that is when you're forcibly kicked out of the Rift through something like an Eximus attack, as an example.

Going into the Rift should just be a bonus everyone receives, and Limbo just has the advantage of automatically being in it and doesn't have any real limitations considering he solely relies on it to affect the environment. If I had to throw my hat in for suggestions, I would try something like;

- The Rift is changed to now be temporary invulnerability. Maybe something like Mesmer Skin, you take too many hits and it goes away, with Eximus abilities ignoring the barrier entirely. You have a counter so it doesn't get crazy, but also a way to incorporate going into the Rift for normal gameplay to make playing Limbo smoother.

- Limbo's Portal passive simply pulls anyone into the Rift if they're within a set distance, you can hop in as much as you want to refresh your hit counter, but it it's a flat amount as it's a Passive and it only applies 50% of the effect to allies. To clarify here, it can only be refreshed once it's actually removed, so Limbo and allies can actually take damage if they aren't careful.

- Enemies that are pulled into the Rift get a much better visual indication, like a tophat icon above their head, and the Rift is no longer just pure CC. It now continually debuffs enemies, slowly stripping their defenses or making them more vulnerable to damage over time. Either works really, and you can always attach the effect to Rift Surge or Cataclysm if it would fit better there. Enemies that are pulled into the Rift deal less damage to your "Rift Skin" than if they were outside of it.

- Banish only pulls enemies into the Rift again and no longer allows you to kick them back into reality, since there shouldn't be any benefit to doing that anymore. The ability also gains a visual "wave" effect so you can see it better, and holding the ability now does ... eh, maybe a teleport? This is mostly a personal choice, but I would love a mobility boost for Limbo, and it technically fits with his lore.

- Rift Surge only pulls enemies into the Rift just like Banish, restoring your "Rift Skin" with every "pop" you perform with your abilities, one charge per enemy. Enemies affected by Rift Surge no longer lose it when Limbo casts an ability on them, but they can only restore your "Rift Skin" once. If they still have the effect on them, it now increases the rate at which the Armor Strip or Damage Increase scales on that enemy.

- Cataclysm forcibly pulls enemies that are stuck in its edge as it shrinks. A "core" is added to Cataclysm, showing the minimum size it will be upon detonation and making it so Nullifiers have to reach it in order to shut off Cataclysm.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I'm on the rework train. 

But it's obvious the issue is the rift mechanic and I don't see how they can improve him without significantly reworking that. 

 

Yeah.  The "rift" is a sad attempt at creating an alternate dimension within the confines of the game.  It's ineffective, clunky, and does more harm than good.  Limbo needs a full-blown rework.  The "rift" can exist in lore and have new gameplay effects associated with it.  But the "rift" that we know now needs a complete gameplay overhaul.

 

To get back to the OP, yeah, a buff would be nice.  But I worry that buffing Limbo without massive changes to his kit will lead to an increase in the amount of Limbos I run into in random missions.  So I have to disagree for now.  He needs a floor-to-ceiling rework, not a buff.

[Joezone619]

Yes, he needs a buff and then some.

[Marvelous_A]

12 hours ago, Mazifet said:

Nah, just needs to have his kit explained better. Most misconceptions about Limbo like him being worse against eximus when compared to other frames just comes from a general lack of knowledge about the frame.

No I think it's explained pretty well. His abilities don't do jacksh1t against Eximus with Overguard and Eximus abilities go through the rift.

 

I will like to see a full rework of him because he mostly just sits around.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Marvelous_A

[Mazifet]

43 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

No I think it's explained pretty well. His abilities don't do jacksh1t against Eximus with Overguard and Eximus abilities go through the rift.

Eximus bypassing the rift is a good thing imo. It makes Limbo players need to be more active. Even then, I would much rather have my only threat be from eximus rather than eximus AND every other enemies.

[Aruquae]

16 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Speaking as someone who doesn't play Limbo, aside from niche stuff like abusing him in Index. I don't really know what he "needs" to be viable in the modern game environment. However, I feel like at the very least, things immune to being rifted (like Eximus) should at least be hit with a forced slowing effect. From what I've heard mentioned on the forum before, Vauban's Bastille does this, so it wouldn't even be a new concept.

What he “needs” in order to be viable is actual laws for the rift. Along with, you know, his abilities doing something more than rifting (not counting the augment). 
Currently the rift has a lot of “laws” that are never followed and too many exceptions that don’t help Limbo, but hurt him. 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No, people should learn how to use and understand him first. 

Use and understand him, and when you understand him, you realize how his gimmick in the rift is utilized better by the enemies. 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

18 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yeah.  The "rift" is a sad attempt at creating an alternate dimension within the confines of the game.  It's ineffective, clunky, and does more harm than good.  Limbo needs a full-blown rework.  The "rift" can exist in lore and have new gameplay effects associated with it.  But the "rift" that we know now needs a complete gameplay overhaul.

 

To get back to the OP, yeah, a buff would be nice.  But I worry that buffing Limbo without massive changes to his kit will lead to an increase in the amount of Limbos I run into in random missions.  So I have to disagree for now.  He needs a floor-to-ceiling rework, not a buff.

This is where we run into issues in calls for change though. Anyone "maining" limbo likely loves the rift and it's mechanics.  Much in a similar way that people running Hydroid were upset undertow was removed. 

Except in the case of Limbo it's his whole gimmick. So I'm in agreement with you but doubt DE's willingness to make that level of change for a frame that's more simply forgotten. 

[Brian_with_a_Buh]

On 2023-12-11 at 7:38 AM, (NSW)Zangetsu73 said:

I am a Limbo main, and I think Limbo is great, but ever since the update that buffed eximus units, playing him has been very annoying. Their aura cannot only affect you, but also damage you to the point where you die while in the rift. On top of that, you can't damage them while you're in the rift even though they can damage you.

I personally think that the buff to eximus units is a good thing. Them not being able to be affected by crowd control is a nice touch; It makes them more of a challenge, but Limbo's survivability is going into the rift and being untouchable. It's fine if they're not affected by stasis, but for them to be able to damage and kill Limbo while he's supposed to be untouchable completely removes this survivability. 

I think he needs a buff. What do y'all think?

Edit: I think Limbo is fine as is, but I think a buff that would deal with the problem stated above would definitely help.

Recently used limbo to do the nightwave '3 index round without enemy scoring'...since none of those guys are eximus...

Oh my god, it was nice to actually play old limbo haha. He was my freakin GO TO for mobile defence. With eximus change (which i love & think helped the game massively, more fun for veterans too) vauban has 100% replaced limbo. Even on tough rescue missions (steelpath, sortie) i just stop being a solo player for 5 mins & beat those missions with matchmaking on. & Honestly....i could just subsume limbo's 1 anyway.        :|

[Brian_with_a_Buh]

Definitely think eximus can stay immune to stasis, thats whatever. But shouldnt be able to shoot limbo when on a different plane. Thats not fair. If they can shoot him, he should be able to shoot them at that same time.

 

Plus ...if they can walk into the rift without stasis affecting them, that would mean they can shoot the DEF OBJ too, so they are a threat that needs to be dealt with.

But killing limbo from outside the rift, when hes in it....come on, that has nothing to do with CC immunity, thats cheating. They're ignoring planes of existence at that point. Their attacks (& even more ludicrously, their bullets/ rockets/projectiles) are hopping over dimensions to hit limbo. SOMETHING EVEN LIMBO CANT DO.

Silly us...turns out eximus units were the masters of the rift all along, not limbo

Edited December 12, 2023 by Brian_with_a_Buh
They're their there...you know what it is :p

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

This is where we run into issues in calls for change though. Anyone "maining" limbo likely loves the rift and it's mechanics.  Much in a similar way that people running Hydroid were upset undertow was removed. 

Except in the case of Limbo it's his whole gimmick. So I'm in agreement with you but doubt DE's willingness to make that level of change for a frame that's more simply forgotten. 

At the risk of sounding insensitive, I don't actually think Limbo "mains'" opinions really matter here.  It's the players who are affected by a Limbo on a squad that should have their opinions taken into account.  He's a disruptive frame that negatively affects the rest of his team.  He needs changes.

 

And in any event, Limbo's usage is not exactly high.  He might have a few self-proclaimed "mains," out there, but they're far from a significant portion of the player base.

[Silver_Wisp]

I play limbo as my main followed by ivira. The issue everyone has with banish on allies is already solved. If anyone has ever payed attention, its stated that any allie can roll out of the void. There are mechanics in place to allow limbo to work in a team and solo. Just no one bothers to ask or learn.

[sunderthefirmament]

42 minutes ago, Silver_Wisp said:

I play limbo as my main followed by ivira. The issue everyone has with banish on allies is already solved. If anyone has ever payed attention, its stated that any allie can roll out of the void. There are mechanics in place to allow limbo to work in a team and solo. Just no one bothers to ask or learn.

You can’t roll out of the rift in a cataclysm. 
 

And pretty much anyone with any degree of experience in this game knows how you can roll out of the rift in other situations. That doesn’t make it okay that Limbo can have this effect on other players. Even having to roll out of the rift once or twice during a mission is an inconvenience.  In a game as grindy as Warframe, minor inconveniences build up over time. I have an embarrassing amount of hours in this game, which means that I have long ago lost all patience for Limbo in most mission types. 
 

Remove the rift. Replace it with something new that doesn’t give players the ability to disrupt and grief each other. 

[Aruquae]

11 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Remove the rift. Replace it with something new that doesn’t give players the ability to disrupt and grief each other. 

Remove Limbo is what I’m hearing

This is why I said he needs a rework. Cataclysm is thought to be his “best ability,” but most of the time I never run it. His banish is a lot better with some range, especially when  paired with his third, and it goes good against nullifiers. 
Removing the portal he leaves behind along with changing cataclysm (because I can tell you, it’s arguably his worst ability) is a step towards the “griefing” that inexperienced Limbo players accidentally do 

Also completely random, I don’t know how this happened, but whenever I go to forums it just brings me to your homepage. Sorry about that, have no clue how to fix it. (No bookmarking the main page doesn’t work)

[ReddyDisco]

Limbo needs a complete rework imo

[ZurtfimHG]

I find that Limbo only needs a visual clarity "buff". For example, he could make objects in the rift black and white so we can see who is in the rift or not. Similar effect to Duviri. While in the rift you could make also your environment black and white. 

[Dunkelheit]

Limbo is strong, but he is boring to play. Above all, the shriking of his 4 needs to go.

[Silver_Wisp]

On 2023-12-13 at 8:26 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

You can’t roll out of the rift in a cataclysm. 
 

I didnt mention cata in that section only banish. Also any experienced limbo player knows how to remove the cata rift when its not needed to its full duration which for me is maxed at 40sec. Its not frosts snow globe for which even frost players know how to remove the globe as well. It players that have issues with this abilities are thise that dont have experience playing those frames. 

Limbo could use some updating to bring him up to par with other frames, but to completely change or remove an ability because some one dosent like it is stupid.

[sunderthefirmament]

16 minutes ago, Silver_Wisp said:

I didnt mention cata in that section only banish. Also any experienced limbo player knows how to remove the cata rift when its not needed to its full duration which for me is maxed at 40sec. Its not frosts snow globe for which even frost players know how to remove the globe as well. It players that have issues with this abilities are thise that dont have experience playing those frames. 

Limbo could use some updating to bring him up to par with other frames, but to completely change or remove an ability because some one dosent like it is stupid.

I still run into the occasional Limbo that puts a relatively small cataclysm on the defense objective, thinking they’re helping. If I want to clear the point with an AOE weapon, I now have to move into that small cataclysm. And even if I do, the cataclysm will shrink and might decide to spit an enemy out right when my bramma arrow explodes, leaving them unharmed and ready to rush back in and get frozen again. 
 

It’s an obnoxious ability to deal with, and no amount of game knowledge ameliorates that… except perhaps politely asking the Limbo to stop or just leaving the game when they don’t.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

5 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I still run into the occasional Limbo that puts a relatively small cataclysm on the defense objective, thinking they’re helping. If I want to clear the point with an AOE weapon, I now have to move into that small cataclysm. And even if I do, the cataclysm will shrink and might decide to spit an enemy out right when my bramma arrow explodes, leaving them unharmed and ready to rush back in and get frozen again. 
 

It’s an obnoxious ability to deal with, and no amount of game knowledge ameliorates that… except perhaps politely asking the Limbo to stop or just leaving the game when they don’t.

Yeah this is obviously going to be the biggest issue everyone has with Limbo, he's just disruptive and really has no reason to be.

Khora has it with her Strangledome to a much more minor degree, Hydroid and Ash used to have really obstructive abilities, even Atlas and Frost used to when their abilities blocked Status Effects. Players don't like being forced to work around another characters rules in any fashion, and it's pretty obvious as to why, because it's just annoying.

I really wish people would stop belittling arguments for Limbo to change into "well you just don't understand how he works" or "well any good Limbo knows how to avoid that." Like come on. We all know how his abilities work, they just disrupt the flow of the game and we don't like it. Everyone who dislikes Limbo isn't an idiot, and everyone who tries to defend Limbo with this kind of argumentation has to go out of their way to be as unobtrusive as they can with less Range builds and hardly using Limbo's full kit when in a group so they don't get told off.

Seriously, Limbo doesn't suck, but he's janky as all hell and really needs stuff like basic Rift mechanics to be looked at.