"AOE meta got nerfed, oh no" - no, it's still around... sadly

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-01-10 at 2:03 PM, trst said:

AOE or no AOE WF still has the issue of the game not being remotely balanced for a full squad. Even if everyone only had single target weapons it then becomes down to who has the better nuke abilities. And removing those abilities it then becomes who lands their grouping ability and shoots first.

That said I support DE adding the other AOE nerfs that were discussed when AOE ammo was being addressed. Things like removing self stagger immunity from (Primed) Sure Footed and adding self damage back in. Both of those would curb mindless AOE spam to some extent but the core issue would remain.

Im just not seeing the great plague of AOE spam that seems to so terribly inflict some forum users. The one where you cant even do anything because everyone else has already done everything (or killed everything).

This leads me to believe some forum users are just being dramatic.

Seems to me like the aoe nerfs got the point across just fine. I barely touch aoe weapons, ever, since those changes.

When we move on from "lets maybe nerf aoe weapons again by adding self damage and self stagger" to "grouping/chaining/punch through/etc too" we're talking about a significant number of frames and weapons, a significant amount of the game being overhauled or made irrelevant with the nerf bat.

 

Id rather have 10 viable options than 3, and ive seen devs play the wack a mole meta nerf game before.

 

I know exactly what would happen, after the dust settles and people who get angry either decide to deal with it and keep playing or just stop playing the survivors would just move on to the next meta, which would probably be melee. Then the same people complaining about this would complain about that.

[Zakkhar]

12 hours ago, trst said:

And AOE gives players the choice to remove all other choices from the three other players in the squad.

1. It doesnt (overdramatic)

2. You talk about public squads or some super premades relic opening where people want to make it as fast as possible? Cause public squads are well, public. Anything goes. And premade relic opening are often superhardcore mode for people that want to grind stuff quick not have pleasant experience in game.

[beercritch]

hmmm...

In high tier pub games I do OK. I get well involved and do my share of the work. No problem there and all my fancy weapons work just fine.

Relic runs are not the place to worry about getting use out of your strong weapons. Heck; sometimes I dont even get to see the bad guys (I am well into my 50's and sometimes I just cant match the speed runs from the rest of my team) , but as long as I get my shards and unlock the relic all's good.

 

IMHO anyway.

[BR31]

Play sp and you won't have issues with charging incarnons.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

It doesn't matter how hard they nerf AoE weapons, AoE will always be the meta.

The fast-paced nature of the game coupled with large numbers of enemies will always draw players to the quickest ways to clear rooms. Whether they be AoE weapons or nuke frames. Nerfing AoE guns didn't solve the fundamental issues with the games design, it just shifted the AoE meta around a little bit instead.

Edited January 12 by xcrimsonlegendx

[---Merchant---]

Interesting how I never have any of these issues no matter the gun I use. My most played gun is Boltor Prime and my killcount is 1.55million with only 500k kill assists
I do not want to call you out, but perhaps try a little bit harder.
If you see your team standing there blasting doorway, you can go kill other side or  go inside the doorway if you care so much about personal killcount. I'm sure that I'd encounter this issue you describe at least once in the ammount of hours I've played if it was real.


True issue related to kills are the console players. They reduce enemy spawnrate to 10 to 25% which means only 10% to 25% of loot and experience points.
In such case I can imagine having issue to find enemy to kill, but completely caused by crossplay not meta. Sometimes 0 enemies spawn for many seconds in survival with console player hosting. It feels like visiting ghostship when that happens.

[AGGREBEE]

The funny thing is despite the AOE nerfs, it fundamentally only hurts AOE weapons in endgame / super high level content. You can still annihilate everything in fissures (which were specifically singled out as one of the mission types AOE was most "problematic" in) and the normal star chart just fine with a properly built AOE wep. It's only when you get into things like Steel Path when enemies can take multiple shots to kill, and you need to build arcane stacks. THEN the ammo economy issue becomes serious enough that using AOE weapons exclusively might become untenable, even with Ammo Mutation and Carrier. And after the ammo rework and AOE weapon nerfs, we got Primed Ammo Mutation mods to help compensate. 

[SDGDen]

2 hours ago, AGGREBEE said:

The funny thing is despite the AOE nerfs, it fundamentally only hurts AOE weapons in endgame / super high level content. You can still annihilate everything in fissures (which were specifically singled out as one of the mission types AOE was most "problematic" in) and the normal star chart just fine with a properly built AOE wep. It's only when you get into things like Steel Path when enemies can take multiple shots to kill, and you need to build arcane stacks. THEN the ammo economy issue becomes serious enough that using AOE weapons exclusively might become untenable, even with Ammo Mutation and Carrier. And after the ammo rework and AOE weapon nerfs, we got Primed Ammo Mutation mods to help compensate. 

all of this.

meanwhile, i still have a "lazy wukong" build involving dispensary that allows wuclone to spam bramma all over the map, easy AFKing in theory (i dont actually use it that way, just wanted to see if it was still possible after the various nerfs to that specific playstyle). dispensary fixes all the ammo stuff at lower levels where one shot can clear out many enemies.

the only way to nerf AOE weapons across the board is to reintroduce self-damage, but scale it better (such as self-damage doing the unmodded damage of the weapon rather than fully modded weapon damage since fully modded weapon damage = generally a one-shot for warframes) 

[Aruquae]

It seems people are confusing “AOE” with “AOE meta”

I occasionally see AOE spammers, but it’s not 24/7 as it used to be pre nerf. Probably a quarter of the time if not smaller.

Edited January 16 by Aruquae

[SDGDen]

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

It seems people are confusing “AOE” with “AOE meta”

I occasionally see AOE spammers, but it’s not 24/7 as it used to be pre nerf. Probably a quarter of the time if not smaller.

honestly, the vibe on why that is is mostly just that the AOE meta spammers from before quit when the nerfs were announced, and other players simply got tired of spamming AOE all the time. it's just not a fun gameplay style. efficient, sure. but not fun. 

 

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

For the fun of it, revisited my primary Tombfinger kitgun (Tombfinger+Tremor+Splat), as I've unveiled not one, but two kitgun rivens for it. My god that gun is an AOE beast even on SP... Rad+Corrosive for direct dmg, with Viral from Nourish to work with Hunter munitions(114% crit chance on full charged shot), plus infinite ammo from battery(23 shots, quick "reload"), plus almost 9 meter(ok, 8,93m and 70% effectiveness) explosion range with Primed Fulmination... It literally beats the overwhelming majority of other "AOE" weapons in slot, tbh. Especially on Wisp(with Nourish), thanks to her fire rate buff to deal with that charge-up shot mechanic.

Only downside is the absolutely HORRIBLE visual clutter (even with black energy colors) and the OBNOXIOUSLY loud explosion sound even when it's literally in the opposite end of a super long hallway or even in the other room - still sounds like if the explosion is right in your face instead. It's borderline unusable because of visuals and audio, unless you tone down visual effects to absolute minimum(not even 75%, not 50%, literal bottom) and turn sound down to 25% or even off.

I guess that's one way to "nerf" a weapon, eh? By making it simply uncomfortable to use, despite its actual power. Shooting the gun for longer than 10min survivals on Lua SP Survival feels like it will make your eyes and ears bleed real soon. The gun still murders en-masse, deals with Acolytes and Thrax dudes with ease too. But it also kills your vision and hearing >.> And I feel like it was done on purpose...

Edited January 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Aruquae]

3 hours ago, SDGDen said:

honestly, the vibe on why that is is mostly just that the AOE meta spammers from before quit when the nerfs were announced, and other players simply got tired of spamming AOE all the time. it's just not a fun gameplay style. efficient, sure. but not fun. 

 

Completely agree. It's an option, much like Octavia. It's simply too boring

 

[Xzorn]

On 2024-01-12 at 12:41 AM, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Im just not seeing the great plague of AOE spam that seems to so terribly inflict some forum users. The one where you cant even do anything because everyone else has already done everything (or killed everything).

 

I'm the exact player OP is talking about. If it's spam mission content I will just run through holding left click on a 340% Power Mirage + Ignis. If it's Defense I'll Mesa Jump + Spin. This is esp true for void Relics because I only do them to keep my forma BPs up. I used to do them solo but I don't care for the extra time it takes anymore.

Picking a different frame or weapon isn't going to change my outlook on spam missions. They're just boring and nothing will change that.

If it were level 400 or so content my methods change drastically. Even in SP Circuit I usually go with a support frame because I know others are going to pick DPS. Most of the time this insures we get fast and easy rotations. I look at what others pick and play around their picks. It's funny to watch the group cooperation fall in line as level increases. Every time I've played Roar Abating Link Trinity the other players start sticking closer and closer to me. Once I picked my endurance run Banshee build with Marelok which has no defense mods at all because it's designed to be protected. We went 900 easy. I had to work overtime but still showed in group performance.

The key differences being enemy level and spam Vs leave when you want.
Spam missions will never be anything but a free for all because we have no reason to actually work together to complete the task.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In the end messing with AoE weapons was a mistake IMO. Opticor now staggers? Braton/Burston Inarnon stagger? What a joke.
They already made some weapons suck more than they should and solved nothing because general AoE isn't the problem.

[0_The_F00l]

I have seen a reduction in brainless boom and zoom gameplay at reasonably higher levels, 

But it is extremely dominant at relatively lower levels , mostly by gauss/titania/Garuda , all spamming the thermal sunder ability to clear enemies.

I think AoE weapons are in a reasonable place right now , though there could always be tweaks and improvements. What we may be getting is an energy economy rework soon to counter the other aspect of the AoE damage.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 10.1.2024 um 20:36 schrieb _Kit_Kat_Cat_:

Running pub relic runs(Normal and SP both) makes me wonder, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed. Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure - all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor, Tenet Envoy, Sporelacer kitguns, Kuva Zarr/Bramma and the rest of the "supposedly nerfed" AOE weapons that people don't even have to aim at all. Same applies to literally any other single-target weapon - even non-incarnon, even if a very good one... Too bad.

I understand wanting to "optimize gameplay", especially relic runs. I really do. And yeah, AOE weapons do exactly that - no need to aim, just spray'n'pray. EZ braindead gameplay. I get it. But... AOE meta still around, still making single-target weapons irrelevant, incarnon or not.

Can't say how to make single-target stuff more relevant without nerfing AOE, but at least something can be done to Incarnons - just make them ALL charge up on body hits, like Angrstrum/Torid do. Otherwise it's pointless to even bother trying to get to the boosted incarnon forms - which are (usually, but not always) good. But you can't use em in those somewhat shorter relic run missions, because by the time you'd be able to use them(if at all!!!) - everyone's already dead, mission complete and you need to head to extract. The only time they are good are solo SP runs. Where you have all the time in the world and all the enemies left to you. Not being obliterated by AOE that people don't have to aim.

Discuss.

are we playing the same game? Do we live on the same planet? and how many rose-colored glasses are currently on? 10 or more??????

Because AOE weapons have been a laughingstock since forever. every single target/beam is trillions of times better than aoe can ever be

Edited January 17 by Venus-Venera

[PollexMessier]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

are we playing the same game? Do we live on the same planet? and how many rose-colored glasses are currently on? 10 or more??????

Because AOE weapons have been a laughingstock since forever. every single target/beam is trillions of times better than aoe can ever be

My Bramma, and Tenet Envoy can 1-3 shot acolites depending on my luck with crits. And make steel path enemies feel like default star chart.

Back when I was trying to farm acolites, absolutely nothing else I tried even remotely came close. Even glaive prime took many more hits than that.

I haven't really bothered testing incarnons on them since they came out, cus I've had no reason to really fight them anymore. But most of my incarnons seem to struggle a bit with even normal steel path enemies, without armor stripping to help, so I don't think they'd fair that well against them.

So ether I'm modding something horrendously wrong, or you are, or both. These things are so overpowered I've started to purposely avoid using them cus they're literally just god mode.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb PollexMessier:

My Bramma, and Tenet Envoy can 1-3 shot acolites depending on my luck with crits. And make steel path enemies feel like default star chart.

Back when I was trying to farm acolites, absolutely nothing else I tried even remotely came close. Even glaive prime took many more hits than that.

I haven't really bothered testing incarnons on them since they came out, cus I've had no reason to really fight them anymore. But most of my incarnons seem to struggle a bit with even normal steel path enemies, without armor stripping to help, so I don't think they'd fair that well against them.

So ether I'm modding something horrendously wrong, or you are, or both. These things are so overpowered I've started to purposely avoid using them cus they're literally just god mode.

Oh well..............
which build? and did you drastically reduce their defenses in the past? or do you have pimped people on your team???

Even if it were like that... and I can hardly believe that it actually is... I can just hold the mele button and a single target will go down like Titanic. because who is supposed to survive all these 600k crits with brutal attack speed?

[Xzorn]

Take it from a weathered endurance runner. Primary weapons were usually AoE while secondary was single target.
There were and still are few primary weapons that match the DPS and status rates of secondary weapons.

While the community ranted about armor scaling for years shooting things with Soma or whatever we had no problems.
It still remains easier to amp flat damage using status weapons. Even under this scuffed new status system. Status still wins.

Melee never really got used. Cuz you'll die. That's more prominent now than before. The damage intake is just too high. Nerfing melee damage was stupid IMO. Any damage problems solved themselves as enemies scale. Only the most defensive frames could melee at high levels and even that had a much lower limit than guns.

[SDGDen]

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think AoE weapons are in a reasonable place right now , though there could always be tweaks and improvements. What we may be getting is an energy economy rework soon to counter the other aspect of the AoE damage.

honestly, the energy economy rework will probably be coming for other reasons too, energy is a balancing factor that's simply not doing what it is meant to (just like how self-stagger/self damage and ammo economy are balancing factors for AOE weapons, and before the nerfs ammo simply wasnt doing what it was supposed to)

[Sporthand]

Meanwhile, in the Asian server! Also, welcome to the Asian Server!

Edited January 17 by Sporthand

[SneakyErvin]

One thing I wonder with people that have issues with AoE leaving them with nothing to do is... Do you have the same issues with upfront single target damage in missions where single target killing is the priority? Like in disruptions or assassination, do you get angry at a Kullervo teleporting right past you and turning the demo/boss you planned on killing into pulp and red mist instantly?

[SDGDen]

5 minutes ago, Sporthand said:

Meanwhile, in the Asian server! Also, welcome to the Asian Server!

the main reason not to play on the asia server when you actually want to play the game is basically this:

asia server for some reason is filled with people that find automated ways to play the game. previously this was wukong+bramma, now it's garuda+thermal sunder.

 

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

One thing I wonder with people that have issues with AoE leaving them with nothing to do is... Do you have the same issues with upfront single target damage in missions where single target killing is the priority? Like in disruptions or assassination, do you get angry at a Kullervo teleporting right past you and turning the demo/boss you planned on killing into pulp and red mist instantly?

yes, but in the case of single-target weapons it's more because boss design isn't really made for multiplayer. especially minibosses that dont have immunity phases or a damage cap have this issue because there's no meaningful mechanic requiring you to share the enemy with your teammates.

 

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

yes, but in the case of single-target weapons it's more because boss design isn't really made for multiplayer. especially minibosses that dont have immunity phases or a damage cap have this issue because there's no meaningful mechanic requiring you to share the enemy with your teammates.

That is kinda the nature of the game. There is no scaling anywhere that really promotes group play. On normal only the enemy density numbers scale, in SP nothing scales besides acolyte health. And in normal the numbers really only scale in endless. So if people want to engage and kill when they play going solo is the best solution. The game is primarily a solo player experience with optional co-op.

And since SP density doesnt scale, getting AoE to a point where it doesnt remove the interction for 3/4 players in a group isnt realistic, since the weapon needs to work for a player playing solo aswell. If scaling was based on group size everywhere, they could potentially cap damage to a number of enemies similar to how AoE worked (probably still works) in Guild Wars 2, or reduce damage per enemy hit. There is a bigger chance DE adds scaling health based on group size for enemies, since it is already a thing on acolytes. But I wouldnt be surprised if people got upset over that aswell and screaming more about leeches and how ammo runs out since more shots need to be fired because not everyone is pulling their weight.

I really wouldnt want to be in DE's shoes inside that massive hole they've dug over the years when it comes to balance.

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, SDGDen said:

honestly, the energy economy rework will probably be coming for other reasons too, energy is a balancing factor that's simply not doing what it is meant to (just like how self-stagger/self damage and ammo economy are balancing factors for AOE weapons, and before the nerfs ammo simply wasnt doing what it was supposed to)

 

An energy economy rework? After 9 years of it being tilted?

Energy economy went out the window the day they made the game a horde shooter and enemy density has only grown.
Path of Exile made the same mistake about the same time and they've had self sustain issues via Leech, Regen, Life on Hit and potions ever since.

Every time DE has tried to prevent players from sustaining an ability like perma Hysteria they only hurt players who didn't have the means to bypass those changes. I have serious doubt in their ability to fix such a long and ingrained problem. They would not only need to balance energy drop rates but every frame and a few enemies.

I haven't even noticed the AoE changes. The stagger does nothing if you play frames that don't care. I stagger myself all the time now and it's just annoying. Ammo Mutation + Carrier solves the ammo issues. They aren't really fixing anything. They're just forcing players to use bypass options same as perma Hysteria.

Anyone remember when they tried to take the teleport away from Itzal? What Archwing do most people use? I bet it's Itzal.

[Sporthand]

9 hours ago, SDGDen said:

the main reason not to play on the asia server when you actually want to play the game is basically this:

asia server for some reason is filled with people that find automated ways to play the game. previously this was wukong+bramma, now it's garuda+thermal sunder.

I am not worried about their onslaught. I could surpass their kill counts even if they use the same tactic. 
The Asian server has more dynamic individuals than any other server, and most are very polite as I met. I often switch to the Asian Server when there are no open matches. 

Besides, If I look for an efficient farming match, The Asian server might be the one.


Or, maybe...