Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

22 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You do realize that award shows are PR stunts, and the awards go to whatever developer/publisher wins the auction for them, right?

It's the same with any other award show in any other industry. Including the big ones like the Oscars.

First, that is a MAJOR lie. That is not how the industry works. Yes, there are biases, but not to the level of what you are suggesting (and yes, I work in the industry and have been behind the scenes of the Emmys, Oscars, CMAs and VGAs).

Honestly don't like when people throw stuff like this out. In DE's case, Warframe has earned its right to be top tier enough to win awards. The game has kept a very large audience happy and has done so for over a decade. I don't know what your definition of success is, but managing an omnidirectional player base for over 10 years is a stratospheric accomplishment all gaming companies would kill for.

[trst]

20 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I dont know in what universe AOE didnt get nerfed significantly but okay.

Because in practical application nothing was changed. All that happened to them was the ammo reductions and the nerfs to AOE range mods.

The ammo changes does nothing due to the methods we have to generate ammo, how efficient those weapons are at killing groups of enemies, and how in the same update Eximus were given guaranteed ammo drops. While the range changes don't matter since nearly every part of the game minus open worlds are in tight enough quarters for those mods to still give more than enough range to cover a room.

The worst cast of needing to take any one ammo solution (or just use ammo restores) and occasionally needing to fire your weapon twice per room amounts to a net nothing change in how they perform. Meanwhile the community acted like DE slaughtered their firstborns.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

(and yes, I work in the industry and have been behind the scenes of the Emmys, Oscars, CMAs and VGAs)

So much about you makes so much sense now.

Edited March 20 by Hexerin

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, Kaiga said:

It's not the player's problem that DE can't think of any way out of the meta they created, and decided to limit choice and gate off content instead.

Its a symbiotic relationship. The majority of the playerbase in the last 6 years (post-Fortuna) cannot handle anything that's not a 0-consequence solo nuke build for content where you kill enemies. This is where the Eclipse outcry came from, and it's where this thread stems from too. So many players have their blinders on and don't even understand how to play outside of their comfortable bubble. Being pushed outside that bubble is a challenge. Whether you like it or not is not really anyone's problem, not even DE's.

You're throwing around buzz-words in your feedback, but it all boils down to being uncomfortable with taking on a piece of content with things you may not have taken the time to understand. For example, say I roll weapons in the new mode, but they all have <10% critical chance. If you take Arcane Avenger and the Adarza Kavat, you now have a very viable amount of critical chance. That's really basic, but that's how you're supposed to approach this. Boasting all this gear, you should absolutely be able to take the modding system and ensure your loadout works. If you somehow roll absolutely terrible gear all-around, the absolute worst case scenario is you make the Warframe a cookie-cutter shield gate build, and you bring a single weapon that can be relied on from your "comfortable" roster. The amount of times this will happen should be extremely low.

I've played quite a lot of Duviri, a mode which offers much less freedom, and given I have every Warframe and weapon built out, there's only been maybe 2 occasions where I had to reroll my options, and that's only because Duviri restricts you from playing unless you satisfy the randomization. This mode has it entirely optional for the last reward, which you can earn anyway from normal Netracells or through trading. There is nothing about Deep Archimedea that "forces" the player. That's all in their head.

I'm sorry, but if you can't make builds work for this new mode, you shouldn't be allowed to complain about the state of "challenge" in content, because you clearly still have more to do and progress through. Whether that's what gear you have available, or learning more about game mechanics.

This thread has shown me that a large amount of players would complain if we had Raids added back to the game, because they'd have to learn more about the game outside of their bubble of solo-clearing without consequence. Content accessibility at some point falls on the player. If you always want everything from every piece of content DE adds, then you need to make that happen. That isn't on DE to do for you. 

Edited March 20 by Voltage

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Le 24/02/2024 à 01:18, Kaiga a dit :

"whoops, here's banshee and a stug- go fight level 300 enemies in three different mission types in a row with it!"

Of all frames to piss on, you chose banshee. The one frame that can do the equivalent of boosting any weapon by 10 400% strength rhino roars.

This post seems to complain about the same thing that occurs in Duviri, where you don't get to choose your loadout too much, but see here's the thing...

 

It's a skill issue.

 

Build up your arsenal. Have 3 full builds for every frame and every weapon in the game, full potato, full forma.

Did you not realize that what they are trying to make is endgame content ?

 

I don't want DE to baby-fy yet more content just because boohoo level 300 is "too scawy >w<". Like come on. Seriously. You can make any frame tanky enough for level 1k SP easily, and even the Stug can do significant damage, should you actually care about damage type effectiveness and mod accordingly. If anything you can still have it not be your "main" gun with something like a Dexterity-primer build. Enemies aren't so powercrept you can't kill them with a stick and a peanut gun.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

So you feel it should be a challenge for the sake of a challenge? Cause that's what Steel Path was originally for and we all saw how that went... (Now it's got its own reward store and etc.)

If the rarity / power of the loot doesn't merit making a mode challenging then what does? 

No. I'm just saying the "power" and rarity of these arcanes does not warrant them being locked behind "hard" content when equal or better arcanes are obtained from extremely simple bounty activities. So the idea of making the mode "harder" for the sake of these arcanes being lego quality is odd. In reality these arcanes should just be on the vendor, since they arent special in any real sense. Deep could have then been a place that just rewards shards, where the more you push the more you get rewarded.

The power does merit it, but these arcanes are not powerful. Rarity is of absolutely zero meaning in WF since there is no actual connection between rarity and power for the arcanes really, especially not in a post-trial/eidolon arcane era. We can see that when we compare the two "lego" arcanes with vendor items like Influence and Exposure.

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

This thread is literally a tantrum about having to oblige the random Loadout selections in order to get the guaranteed loot. Shards are in the loot pool but so are Melee Adapters (which I fully expect to be the single most common reward)

Yes so? You expect people that throw a tantrum to actually have an idea what is really worth it and what it is they actually miss out on? No, they are likely here just to throw a tantrum and be negative towards the game first and foremost. The people not throwing a tantrum likely already have it all planned out and dont particuarly care if they get that guaranteed arcane or not, since they'll eventually get it anyway. Either through simple RNG from T1-3, in their Cell runs or eventually from Loid.

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

I never said they'd become useful. I did say they are Legendary Arcanes which is ultimately a top tier arcane. 

And I never said you did. I said you are wrong in them increasing in value due to being rarer, since their rarity doesnt increase their power/usefulness. Or please do explain what other value you find in arcanes focused on increasing the power of a build. And how that value suddenly increases by them being harder to get.

 

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

They act as if the fact they personally don't value it/use something that it has no value and should be treated as something of no value/insignificance. 

That isnt what is being said though. It is in comparison to all the other Cavia arcanes, the power in relation to eachother and how they are obtained. You seem more to be the person that is blinded by rarity and not the actual stats. Where you see the highest rarity and think "this is clearly best" and must then be slower or harder to get than the item of lower rarity that is as good or better and far easier and faster to obtain. The arcanes in question are bad in relation to how they are obtained. The niche use of these arcanes means it would make more sense for them to be rare and on the vendor, while the more straight forward use of Exposure and Influence would make sense on lego arcanes.

The first time I read the patch notes regarding the arcanes, their effects and how to obtain them I honestly thought DE had made a patch note error and that the lego Netracell specific arcane were supposed to be Influence and Exposure and not Crescendo and Duplicate.

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

Tau Shards & Legendary Arcanes are too tier rewards and therefore, they are supposed to be hard to acquire. 

I assume you ment top and not "too" (auto-correct I suppose). Tau are top tier, but the lego arcanes really arent. And why should Tau be hard to acquire? We already get them from Archons and Cells. Hard for some sure, but I see no reason why they should be harder (I'm refering to your extra ideas of modifiers). The reason I see for them to be "harder" to obtain from Deep is because we trade 2 chances for 4-5, so we get more. We are also at a point now where everyone that has played since Veilbreaker releases will have an abundance of normal shards, so the whole "make Tau hard to get" is odd, since all of us with excess shards can just fuse the moment the patch hits to get the Tau we want more or less. So all it really does by making them "hard" to get is slow down how much people can experiement and have fun with their frames, it doesnt limit power, since we already have the power available on the frame we mostly play. 

Now if this was something released waaaay back then I would see the point of it, but now... no not at all.

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

While I vehemently disagree with it, this is partially why DE feels the need to remove Kahl's shard from Chipper and lock it behind Rank 5 Cavia. They feel it's an endgame level reward and therefore, shouldn't be easily acquired. 

Getting rank 5 Cavia isnt hard though, and can be achieved by nearly any player that can actually use the shards when they get them. That is if they even place it at rank 5 and for standing, which we still dont know. Nothing that involves the regular Cavia activities can be considered hard or endgame, since you can reach it and do it at practically any point in the game now. You need to go through most of the same things already before unlocking the shard at Chipper. You can very likely hit rank 5 faster with Cavia than hitting the required rank 5 on Chipper, which is limited to 1 rank per week. And even with the lowest standing per day available it wont take you 5 weeks to hit rank 5 Cavia. You likely also wont be at the lowest possible standing cap either when you get to the Cavia.

On 2024-03-19 at 7:20 PM, Aerikx said:

You (and many others, no doubt) may only see this as an Archon Shard pinata but normal Netracells (once the store bought) Arcanes have been removed will basically become those.

(I'd bet irl money that DE is going to dilute the loot pool with some new crap. There's no way in the ninth circle of hell the mode will only offer Melee Adapters, Shards, and Legendary Arcanes. They are gonna toss in some kind of Forma, the other Weapon adapters, and Weapon Exilus Adapters I bet.)

As it should be, since the idea of such fluctuating chance across the playerbase when we invest the same damn time isnt justifiable or valid. They should really remove everything besides shards so everyone gets equally rewarded for their time spent on this time gated mode. It's absurd that some can get 5 shards in a week while someone else ends up getting 0 even though both of them put in the same effort.

But they wont, since that would make it effectively worse than currently, turning the whole loot table revamp into a pointless change.

 

On 2024-03-20 at 2:48 AM, RichardKam said:

The whole point of this thread is this question: is it possible to design challenging content without arsenal restriction? People had been complaining about the "lack of challenge" and "I don't want arsenal restriction" for years. In this thread people even called DE a "disqualified developer" because they assumed it is possible to do it without arsenal restriction and DE is just too dumb to know it.

And I merely ask this: what does a challenging content look like without arsenal restriction? Eidolon? No, people with unlimited loadout can solo it without any risk in a reasonably short time. Spy? No, people with unlimited loadout can solo it easily. They are not challenging content.

Weakpoint mobs and units with specific defenses are the solution. I'm not sure why you are hung up on Eidolons. Yes they are trivial, now. But they are also content released in freakin 2017... 7 damn years ago. Sure they got trivialized before that, but not by a wider part of the community until years later. This is something that happens in all games, but it is also a type of mechanical setup that doesnt get trivialized as quickly as just walls of standard HP that can be blasted into nothingness with poorly aimed AoE or a melee button held down while you press or let go of your forward movement on and off.

So the main point of weakpoints and mechanically unique units is to allow new content to actually be new for a while. It doesnt matter if it at a later point gets trivialized, what matters is that it is relevant when it releases, to match the current power of the player better. Cells for instance did not achieve that, since all we face are just regular standard "rank and file" trash.

A thing they should really combine across all factions are Guardian Eximus mechanics and Glassmaker enemies. A unit that is both hard to take down due to specific weakpoint locations on the body while it also makes all allies around it extremely resistant to AoE damage. And there are several other combinations of ally buffs that could be added, things that make it annoying for the player to handle trash aslong as the buffer is still alive. I mean other games manage it well even when the player deals absurd amount of damage, so no reason why WF couldnt be able to have the same potential. And WF has the benefit of being a shooter, so can utilize the idea of weakpoints to achieve these mobs that shake up combat on the fly. 

Another thing DE seems afraid of using enemies with debuffs. A heavy enemy unit that has a "Roar" aura, which applies max puncture stacks on players/companions and buffs allies with a damage multiplier. You can just see how much a damage multiplayer can shift thing by going to Mot in the void instead of another survival mission of the same level. Adding damage multipliers as a occuring effect from mobs as a mission progresses would also help shift things up. And while at the same time inflcting players with lower damage output, that target would become a priority, since you have lower TTL and worse TTK aslong as it is alive. And combine that with enough enemy debuffs because you decide to not handle those targets quickly and you might start to struggle. The main point is that the provider of these buffs and debuffs must be durable in some way to make it a threat.

[(PSN)rexis12]

41 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The main point is that the provider of these buffs and debuffs must be durable in some way to make it a threat

The worm enemy we got is a pretty neat example of this. 

It's a threat to your energy, but at the same time the range attack is telegraphed and the close range attack has a tell, I wish it had a more obvious Aura but that's another issue with enemy clarity as a whole. 

And best of all, unlike EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THE GAME, sans Duviri Daxes, you, the player, can actually influence their super attacks, by either going in close or making the distance and keeping them at a mid range distance. And it's due to player actions whether it does one or the other and you can cut them short by, playing the game, instead of just waiting it out or overloading with DPS. 

Sure I have SOME issues with their durability and Status Cleanse, but that's just me grumbling at yet another Status resistant enemy than anything else.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Yeah it kinda sucks that their "a way to get a guaranteed arcane" turned into "play our way with mostly garbage tier gear or don't get one guaranteed" .. so yeah, I definitely won't play into the RNG there and live without the guaranteed drop.

[Drachnyn]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Voltage:

Its a symbiotic relationship. The majority of the playerbase in the last 6 years (post-Fortuna) cannot handle anything that's not a 0-consequence solo nuke build for content where you kill enemies. This is where the Eclipse outcry came from, and it's where this thread stems from too. So many players have their blinders on and don't even understand how to play outside of their comfortable bubble. Being pushed outside that bubble is a challenge. Whether you like it or not is not really anyone's problem, not even DE's.

You're throwing around buzz-words in your feedback, but it all boils down to being uncomfortable with taking on a piece of content with things you may not have taken the time to understand. For example, say I roll weapons in the new mode, but they all have <10% critical chance. If you take Arcane Avenger and the Adarza Kavat, you now have a very viable amount of critical chance. That's really basic, but that's how you're supposed to approach this. Boasting all this gear, you should absolutely be able to take the modding system and ensure your loadout works. If you somehow roll absolutely terrible gear all-around, the absolute worst case scenario is you make the Warframe a cookie-cutter shield gate build, and you bring a single weapon that can be relied on from your "comfortable" roster. The amount of times this will happen should be extremely low.

I've played quite a lot of Duviri, a mode which offers much less freedom, and given I have every Warframe and weapon built out, there's only been maybe 2 occasions where I had to reroll my options, and that's only because Duviri restricts you from playing unless you satisfy the randomization. This mode has it entirely optional for the last reward, which you can earn anyway from normal Netracells or through trading. There is nothing about Deep Archimedea that "forces" the player. That's all in their head.

I'm sorry, but if you can't make builds work for this new mode, you shouldn't be allowed to complain about the state of "challenge" in content, because you clearly still have more to do and progress through. Whether that's what gear you have available, or learning more about game mechanics.

This thread has shown me that a large amount of players would complain if we had Raids added back to the game, because they'd have to learn more about the game outside of their bubble of solo-clearing without consequence. Content accessibility at some point falls on the player. If you always want everything from every piece of content DE adds, then you need to make that happen. That isn't on DE to do for you. 

Oh yea adarza exists. My first thought of a damage buffing companion was a mecha set sahasa. The spread from the mecha set is no joke when goes off. Do we know if companions are one of the things asked for in the research tiers?

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Oh yea adarza exists. My first thought of a damage buffing companion was a mecha set sahasa. The spread from the mecha set is no joke when goes off. Do we know if companions are one of the things asked for in the research tiers?

I would need to look at the devstream wip, but iirc it was just weapons and the Warframe. Even if companions were randomized, there's still plenty to do with the new Bond mods and such.

[Unknown924]

DE slipped some important information on how things are going to work in their news post for Dante Unbound but I am not sure how many people noticed: https://www.warframe.com/news/dante-unbound-launches-in-march

"Each week, sacrifice two Netracell Search Pulses to venture into this new mission type. You can replay the Deep Archimedea Missions as much as you like without costing any additional Search Pulses, but you can only receive up to six high-quality Rewards from them each week. To increase the quality and quantity of Rewards you receive, you must increase your Research Value level. Research Value rises when you use items from Loid’s suggested loadout, or by applying various modifiers to your Missions that add extra difficulty."

It doesn't specify if the rewards use cumulative Research Value or only your highest earned Research Value.

The main question now is how many weapons/modifiers must be selected to get the max result in one run if it goes by highest earned research value. If it goes by cumulative then it is simply a case of spending more time to get the max reward instead of being fully locked out if you only bring 1 or 2 suggested items per run.

[Hexerin]

21 minutes ago, Unknown924 said:

It doesn't specify if the rewards use cumulative Research Value or only your highest earned Research Value.

The preview they showed makes it very clear that it's not cumulative, you either go all-in or you don't get the full payout.

21 minutes ago, Unknown924 said:

The main question now is how many weapons/modifiers must be selected to get the max result in one run if it goes by highest earned research value. If it goes by cumulative then it is simply a case of spending more time to get the max reward instead of being fully locked out if you only bring 1 or 2 suggested items per run.

You have to use all of the RNG equipment to get full rewards, there's no picking and choosing.

Edited March 20 by Hexerin

[Unknown924]

18 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The preview they showed makes it very clear that it's not cumulative, you either go all-in or you don't get the full payout.

You have to use all of the RNG equipment to get full rewards, there's no picking and choosing.

Not confirmed fully if you have to go all in yet. They explicitly said on the preview they were still balancing points and requirements: "All or almost all" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy_vtGx8vq8&t=3782s

The official news post, which is newer than the dev stream, also says up to six rewards while the dev stream says 5 as the max.  So things have clearly changed from the preview and we need new information to be certain about how things work.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Unknown924 said:

The official news post, which is newer than the dev stream, also says up to six rewards while the dev stream says 5 as the max.  So things have clearly changed from the preview and we need new information to be certain about how things work.

I'm sure the PAX East Devstream that showcases Dante Unbound will have better details on Friday.

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, Unknown924 said:

Not confirmed fully if you have to go all in yet. They explicitly said on the preview they were still balancing points and requirements: "All or almost all" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy_vtGx8vq8&t=3782s

Since this has already been gone over in this very thread, I'll just quote myself:

On 2024-02-25 at 10:42 AM, Hexerin said:

We're less than a month away from the patch, what we're seeing is how it's going to work. You don't make fundamental changes to a system when this close to release.

 

2 hours ago, Unknown924 said:

The official news post, which is newer than the dev stream, also says up to six rewards while the dev stream says 5 as the max.  So things have clearly changed from the preview and we need new information to be certain about how things work.

They never stated what the specific rewards were, other than the guaranteed legendary arcane for maxing out the mode, so you're making some severe assumptions based on zero evidence with that.

[Kaiga]

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

You're throwing around buzz-words in your feedback, but it all boils down to being uncomfortable with taking on a piece of content with things you may not have taken the time to understand.

If i had a nickel for every time someone made the skill issue point to excuse this terrible, anti-choice gating design of endgame modes. I've answered this countless times, but if you're really that bad at reading comp,

 

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm sorry, but if you can't make builds work for this new mode, you shouldn't be allowed to complain about the state of "challenge" in content, because you clearly still have more to do and progress through. Whether that's what gear you have available, or learning more about game mechanics.

This is extremely strange to hear you say, forget for a moment that i'm also LR 4 with all syndicates, a conclave typhoon with everything relevant built, blah blah blah, yes we're all very experienced, but guess what- It's still boring to have your loadout limited for no good reason in the supposed "endgame". Just because it's technically possible, cheesing around with rolling guard/shield gating builds doesn't make it fun. 

If we're being real here, I wouldn't care at all if they reduced the tenno power to make the game require more thinking, but you shouldn't have to if you design challenges appropriate to the level of power the players have.

No, really, add me in game, because i want to show you something specific- speaking of the circuit....

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

I've played quite a lot of Duviri, a mode which offers much less freedom, and given I have every Warframe and weapon built out, there's only been maybe 2 occasions where I had to reroll my options, and that's only because Duviri restricts you from playing unless you satisfy the randomization.

This take makes me wonder if you actually understand how this works. This new mode doesn't have Decrees, which in the SP circuit and duviri do most of the work in taking bad items and making them usable against increasing levels. Saying "oh yeah i did levelcap in duviri with rando gear!" while the internal contradictions of this statement are buckling beneath sheer weight of decree megabuffs is again, very strange.

This is how you get bozo takes like this, which, jesus christ
 

11 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Build up your arsenal. Have 3 full builds for every frame and every weapon in the game, full potato, full forma.

Well, you may have the unlimited leisure time or the raw platinum funds to actually do this, but expecting the player to retain 11 years of obsolete content for one mode, because the devs can't be assed to either re-balance player power or create challenges and just limit choice instead,
I dunno what to tell ya at that point, because we're living on different planets, and some of us have jobs outside warframe.

Edited March 20 by Kaiga

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 48 minutes, Kaiga a dit :

I dunno what to tell ya at that point, because we're living on different planets, and some of us have jobs outside warframe.

So what's wrong with missing out on a little bit when you already have?

Don't antagonize me so with something low as a personal attack, surely you were taught better, no doubt.

il y a 53 minutes, Kaiga a dit :

This is extremely strange to hear you say, forget for a moment that i'm also LR 4 with all syndicates, a conclave typhoon with everything relevant built, blah blah blah, yes we're all very experienced, but guess what- It's still boring to have your loadout limited for no good reason in the supposed "endgame". Just because it's technically possible, cheesing around with rolling guard/shield gating builds doesn't make it fun.

See here's where I fail to understand you, you're experienced, have everything "relevant" built. You're saying that you find having your loadout limited is boring, right. But let me take this situation and flip it on its head. What would happen if you did not limit the loadouts? Ah yes, the infamous "let's all play rev + aoe" meta. I get enough time to play Warframe daily, I do all sorts of content in the game, I basically never encounter a single tenno twice, yet there is always one loadout that seems to stick out.

And you stand here talking about something being boring? Telling us that it is not a skill issue? My brother in christ how little time off a year do you have to not realize how boring and stale every single piece of content has become? Oh please go on, let this become another walk in the park for whatever MR5 who's not aimed a hitscan weapon ever in his playtime. Surely that'll be refreshing and fun.

As if 5th rotation buffless arbitration's ever been a "high level game mode" challenge. Haha... bozo takes, right...

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

If i had a nickel for every time someone made the skill issue point to excuse this terrible, anti-choice gating design of endgame modes. I've answered this countless times, but if you're really that bad at reading comp,

This is extremely strange to hear you say, forget for a moment that i'm also LR 4 with all syndicates, a conclave typhoon with everything relevant built, blah blah blah, yes we're all very experienced, but guess what- It's still boring to have your loadout limited for no good reason in the supposed "endgame". Just because it's technically possible, cheesing around with rolling guard/shield gating builds doesn't make it fun.

I really don't understand how this new mode is anti-choice. Warframe has been built up for the last decade to make your gear simply vehicles for the modding system. The way you approach content these days doesn't vastly differ between Warframes. Most Warframe kits, because of Helminth, an eroded co-op experience, and general powercreep has been homogenized and deduced down to choices of flavor. I apologize if you believe I am trying to tell you how to enjoy your time in this game. That is completely up to you whether you find interest in playing something or whether it's worth your time. My aim was to shed light on how backwards it sounds to complain about "challenge", "anti-choice", etc. while asking to protect the ability to pigeon-hole yourself into the same builds we've been seeing for years (99% of the time because it's comfortable).

I am not going to pretend I am some exception to this gameplay loop either. I have roughly 1,905 hours played with Nova Prime and 1,211 hours with Kuva Tonkor (with a CC/CD/MS/+Rec Riven Mod). She's the most comfortable Warframe for me in general content, and Wormhole is my bread and butter for enjoyment. I frequently find myself playing Nova Prime even when there are obvious choices for efficiency purposes or ease-of-use. The same can be said about my Kuva Tonkor usage. 

For example, let's say I am to embark on Entrati Labs Disruption against Voidrig/Bonewidow Demolishers. Let's assume these Demolishers can be armor stripped. Sure, some Warframes can armor strip, some cannot, and some Helminth abilities do. However, Unairu can strip Armor across any loadout. In terms of buffing, people will talk about Roar, Eclipse, and maybe Xata's Whisper, but how about the elemental buffs? Primed Chamber? Lasting Purity? Multiplicative GunCO? Damage Vulnerability multipliers such as Equinox's Rage and Nezha's Blazing Chakram? What if I talk about healing? Oh wait, Magus Arcanes have undermined support Warframes since 2017 with the release of Magus Elevate from Plains of Eidolon, 2018 with the release of Magus Repair from Fortuna, and the 2020 Arcane Changes from Warframe Revised. Everything you need from a loadout is always available if you build around the challenge to "making it work". I gave the worst case example to lend credibility to the observation that "crap RNG" is possible. However, the chances you're engaging with such situations are extremely infrequent as a supposed "geared" player.

We are still forgetting that Research Points only had to be cranked to max for that final, guaranteed Legendary Arcane, which isn't even exclusive to this mission. To me, this feedback is reading like Trials, Eidolon, Arbitration, or Railjack "feedback" (i.e "This needs to be watered down because I want to be able to cheese it with my everyday loadouts"). Complaints about a mode stemming from the fact that you're more rewarded for having a coordinated squad who synergizes with the mission parameters to lessen risk and increase efficiency. That is something Warframe has been sorely missing since spring 2018 when Trials were removed, and the final nail in the coffin was Helminth's introduction in summer 2020.

Not every piece of content should be designed for the lowest common denominator. I'm sorry, but it's gotten very old. What keeps me playing is waiting for content like this. I won't try to hide my bias. This mode is something I've wanted for years from a scheduled mission (weekly/daily/etc.). Removing the research points system, or even undermining it so that you're allowed to bring brain-dead setups means you may as well just remove the whole system and just change the Netracells drop table. The gameplay of Deep Archimedea should have a much riskier dynamic with the rewards they've shown. I say "risk" in the sense of success hinging more on teamplay. Zero consequence gameplay has slowly eroded Warframe's core experience even going as far back as when self-revives were added. It's fun in its own way for sure, and part of that still has me playing, but we need to open up to more than that at some point no?

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

No, really, add me in game, because i want to show you something specific- speaking of the circuit....

I'm not sure what you want to show me that you can't just post here on the Forums for everyone else to see with context. Do you mind elaborating? I don't intend for this to be some back and forth flex, because I already know what content I can take care of, even with whatever restrictions DE employs to spice it up. Warframe players find it really easy to fall in line with their usual comfortable favorites, but for the game to actually make use of the vast gear with synergies through years of enhancement accumulation, it needs to sprinkle in a bit of "encouragement" to swap what you're using.

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

This take makes me wonder if you actually understand how this works. This new mode doesn't have Decrees, which in the SP circuit and duviri do most of the work in taking bad items and making them usable against increasing levels. Saying "oh yeah i did levelcap in duviri with rando gear!" while the internal contradictions of this statement are buckling beneath sheer weight of decree megabuffs is again, very strange.

I agree with you. It is my mistake for not mentioning the elephant in the room of Decrees. They certainly crop up the bad gear rolls of Duviri. I don't want to gloss over that you do make a great point here that is worth mentioning.

However, that mode is still much more "forced" as you cannot participate at all in that content without using those items. For this content, it is entirely optional. You could actually just use 1 rank of Research Points lower than maximum and get all the same reward opportunities as someone at max rank, given Arcanes only need 21 to be perpetually finished, and given they are guaranteed, the prices will come down to not be really that much Platinum compared to other high profile items. Finally, the people who can consistently ensure success for this content are rewarded a bit more than everyone else. That is a healthy dose of elitism. It is not one that segregates players, but one that encourages the graduation of equipment and appropriate rewards at the high end to make it worth your additional effort. Warframe has lacked a reward structure like this since Eidolons were watered down from power creep, Trials were removed, and Ignis Wraith was the only time performance mattered for a clan since Dark Sector conflicts.

"oh yeah i did levelcap in duviri with rando gear!" is a statement you're putting in my mouth. If you're take-away from my cross-examination of Duviri is that I want to flex that I feel the random gear is irrelevant because you can level-cap The Circuit (which by the way only has one objective that can be realistically failed [that being Defense]), then I suggest you re-read my entire comment.

As @schilds put eloquently earlier:

On 2024-02-23 at 9:19 PM, schilds said:

Interesting how some people can't see the contradiction in flexing references to "level cap" while simultaneously complaining that making a few *optional* tradeoffs to fight enemies 9699 levels below cap is too much of an ask.

What I find really strange is that this new mode, with an optional final reward, not exclusive to that drop table is making someone feel "forced" to play with things they do not want to, while the mode still retains plenty of ways for the employment of personal gear choices.

If Deep Archimedea is such a turn-off to you, just play normal Netracells and forfeit the rewards, just like all those people who started Veilbreaker by skipping Azure Shards because "they were useless", or those who have missed over a year and a half of Break Narmer Archon Shards from Kahl's Garrison. I'll continue my streak of maximizing the latest end-game rewards. I just don't see how this mode in the form advertised hurts Warframe as a whole. I see it more damaging to continuously demand at every chance that the game be kept in an almost auto-clicker state for gameplay for everybody, instead of just playing that way by yourself. I rather the game encourage you to switch up how you're approaching missions through mechanical structure than the player being asked to "nerf themselves" ad nauseum [for over half a decade now]. "Challenge" for Warframe has almost always been within the Arsenal. Deep Archimedea is not changing that dynamic.

Edited March 20 by Voltage

[Kaiga]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

-Stuff, some i agree with, some i don't-

My aim was to shed light on how backwards it sounds to complain about "challenge", "anti-choice", etc. while asking to protect the ability to pigeon-hole yourself into the same builds we've been seeing for years (99% of the time because it's comfortable).

Not every piece of content should be designed for the lowest common denominator.

There's a lot there but these are kinda the main points, so i'm going to address these, even the other guy said something along the lines of no loadout limitations mean braindead ez modo where challenge plz DE.

Using RNG as a bandaid for endgame, to get around the monstrous power meta they created, rather than addressing it either with appropriate challenges or rebalancings, is bad for warframe, and is just bad design in general.

What if i told you RNG loadouts doesn't actually solve any of these problems with player power or difficulty? It's not a balance change or new tech to master, or anything other than less choice- Sometimes you do get revenant/torid/glaive prime anyway, which lets players reveal the (actual) hollow difficulty of the new mode, and then complain about braindead ez modo happens anyway, while the rest of the time you can't use whatever gear you want in the name of difficulty that also isn't really there some weeks, also because of RNG.

This is where i think you and i disagree philosophically on game design. Having 80% of the game be play however you want with whatever you want, and then the endgame modes be limitations, time gates, RNG, etc. That is incredibly boring to me, because this is a game about building stuff and testing it against things that challenge it. This is a game where a lot of things are powerful. Designing a challenge that can actually threaten that power comes from mission designs where you find yourself needing that power, or by re-balancing one or two aspects of that power to not create an instant win button.

And insofar as those comfortably OP loadouts everyone keeps talking about- the things that truly require no brain are stuff like revenant's mesmer skin and probably the gloom subsume trivializing area encounters. Things like that probably do need a nerf to make them less brain-off, but after the wukong riots DE/tencent probably doesn't want to nerf it's review score (and quarterly earnings) at the same time. This is a real problem, but also not what's being argued in favor of here. And not one you solve with RNG loadouts.
There is risk, and you can design in risk. DPS outputs like mesa and saryn still die in the circuit if you don't manage your defensives. Tanks like baruuk, grendel, and nezha can be overwhelmed once the numbers start getting big enough, and invisiblity frames, xaku, hildryn, can all be dispelled, nullified, gassed, etc.

But you don't do that by picking the player's gear for them.

Edited March 20 by Kaiga

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-03-20 at 3:38 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Weakpoint mobs and units with specific defenses are the solution. I'm not sure why you are hung up on Eidolons. Yes they are trivial, now. But they are also content released in freakin 2017... 7 damn years ago. Sure they got trivialized before that, but not by a wider part of the community until years later. This is something that happens in all games, but it is also a type of mechanical setup that doesnt get trivialized as quickly as just walls of standard HP that can be blasted into nothingness with poorly aimed AoE or a melee button held down while you press or let go of your forward movement on and off.

So the main point of weakpoints and mechanically unique units is to allow new content to actually be new for a while. It doesnt matter if it at a later point gets trivialized, what matters is that it is relevant when it releases, to match the current power of the player better. Cells for instance did not achieve that, since all we face are just regular standard "rank and file" trash.

A thing they should really combine across all factions are Guardian Eximus mechanics and Glassmaker enemies. A unit that is both hard to take down due to specific weakpoint locations on the body while it also makes all allies around it extremely resistant to AoE damage. And there are several other combinations of ally buffs that could be added, things that make it annoying for the player to handle trash aslong as the buffer is still alive. I mean other games manage it well even when the player deals absurd amount of damage, so no reason why WF couldnt be able to have the same potential. And WF has the benefit of being a shooter, so can utilize the idea of weakpoints to achieve these mobs that shake up combat on the fly. 

Another thing DE seems afraid of using enemies with debuffs. A heavy enemy unit that has a "Roar" aura, which applies max puncture stacks on players/companions and buffs allies with a damage multiplier. You can just see how much a damage multiplayer can shift thing by going to Mot in the void instead of another survival mission of the same level. Adding damage multipliers as a occuring effect from mobs as a mission progresses would also help shift things up. And while at the same time inflcting players with lower damage output, that target would become a priority, since you have lower TTL and worse TTK aslong as it is alive. And combine that with enough enemy debuffs because you decide to not handle those targets quickly and you might start to struggle. The main point is that the provider of these buffs and debuffs must be durable in some way to make it a threat.

The issue here is the player base would explode on the forums about being "annoyed" at the tougher enemies, using every talking point possible as the reasoning: too bullet spongy, to hard to hit the weak point, why must I use magnetic damage, why must I use my operator amp, why damage attenuation, why this and I don't want to do that. We've all seen these patterns before and nothing DE does is going to change that. 

I think the solution is for DE to just keep going forward as they were. There are just too many players, of too many genres of gaming, with way too many emotional states, and at too many different levels of play in this game for any harder type of play or any restrictions based gameplay to go unscathed.

Fortunately, DE is actually doing a terrific job of trying ideas and players are coming up with great ideas for DE to try. As long as that's the preferred path, (instead of the insults), then I say let's enjoy and try to stay within the reasonable bounds.

 

 

On 2024-03-20 at 11:34 PM, Kaiga said:

Using RNG as a bandaid for endgame, to get around the monstrous power meta they created, rather than addressing it either with appropriate challenges or rebalancings, is bad for warframe, and is just bad design in general.

What if i told you RNG loadouts doesn't actually solve any of these problems with player power or difficulty? It's not a balance change or new tech to master, or anything other than less choice- Sometimes you do get revenant/torid/glaive prime anyway, which lets players reveal the (actual) hollow difficulty of the new mode, and then complain about braindead ez modo happens anyway, while the rest of the time you can't use whatever gear you want in the name of difficulty that also isn't really there some weeks, also because of RNG.

I think this is the major disconnect of some of the players vs what the game actually is trying to do. What you think is bad game design is actually you trying to paint the RNG as something it is not supposed to do for us.

What the RNG is doing is giving us the challenge to use the weapons we claimed we mastered, according to our inventory. The game doesn't care if a player decided to call a weapon fodder or trash, and that is because that is a very, VERY subjective statement. Instead, the game is saying "you mastered this weapon/frame? Ok, prove it! Let's see what you can do with this combination. If you can prove yourself, then here's a prize". That's all. 

That's important to keep in mind because nearly every weapon and frame is going to have players who favor them. Further, there will be players that will have builds that would greatly simplify the missions. In fact, this would be where the skilled builders and the meta players will be exposed. We've seen this before in SP Circuit, and this new mode will be lower leveled so it will be even more apparent. Either way, being asked to use what we chose to keep is not bad idea. After all, we kept the weapons/frames, mastered them, and used them for about 98% of the game...so why should the system not honor us with a mode like this?

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I support random loadouts.

[Unknown924]

4 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Since this has already been gone over in this very thread, I'll just quote myself:

Changing the amount of points each option gives or the amount of points required to reach a specific tier is NOT making a fundamental change to the system.   I really don't understand why you insist on using a work in progress image but ignore the explicit statements made about it(They fact they are still balancing how the points will work is brought up around the 1:02:50 mark in the video).

4 hours ago, Hexerin said:

They never stated what the specific rewards were, other than the guaranteed legendary arcane for maxing out the mode, so you're making some severe assumptions based on zero evidence with that.

They explicitly said 5 rewards("it trades 2 keys for 5 rewards", direct quote from the devstream) for two Netracell searches and that they will use the same drop tables as the revised Netracells with the odds for higher tier rewards increasing the farther on the track you go(sort of like bounties in open worlds)("The first two rewards that are silver are essentially exactly the same roles as if you were doing a Netracell, which is the new version of Netracell that doesn't have the extra arcanes. Then the gold version, which is the one that follows after, is basically that same loot table but with more chances to get the rare stuff")

Both of the above quotes happen in the 40 seconds after time I linked in the video. so just click the link and listen for less than a minute.

[RichardKam]

9小时前 , SneakyErvin 说:

Weakpoint mobs and units with specific defenses are the solution. I'm not sure why you are hung up on Eidolons. Yes they are trivial, now. But they are also content released in freakin 2017... 7 damn years ago. Sure they got trivialized before that, but not by a wider part of the community until years later. This is something that happens in all games, but it is also a type of mechanical setup that doesnt get trivialized as quickly as just walls of standard HP that can be blasted into nothingness with poorly aimed AoE or a melee button held down while you press or let go of your forward movement on and off.

So the main point of weakpoints and mechanically unique units is to allow new content to actually be new for a while. It doesnt matter if it at a later point gets trivialized, what matters is that it is relevant when it releases, to match the current power of the player better. Cells for instance did not achieve that, since all we face are just regular standard "rank and file" trash.

A thing they should really combine across all factions are Guardian Eximus mechanics and Glassmaker enemies. A unit that is both hard to take down due to specific weakpoint locations on the body while it also makes all allies around it extremely resistant to AoE damage. And there are several other combinations of ally buffs that could be added, things that make it annoying for the player to handle trash aslong as the buffer is still alive. I mean other games manage it well even when the player deals absurd amount of damage, so no reason why WF couldnt be able to have the same potential. And WF has the benefit of being a shooter, so can utilize the idea of weakpoints to achieve these mobs that shake up combat on the fly.

I was using Eidolon as an example to illustrate why "weakpoint mobs and units with specific defenses" is not a challenging content.

In WitW update, DE did exactly the same. Weakpoint mobs, making all allies around it extremely resistant to anything, and it is flying and spinning. Is it particularly challenging? Even in netracell they are not.

Again, the proposition "it is not possible to make any challenging content without arsenal restriction" is not proven to be false. The reason being our arsenal is so diverse and powerful that it is mathematically impossible to do so. It will very likely be the trend in the foreseeable future.

[Kaiga]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The game doesn't care if a player decided to call a weapon fodder or trash, and that is because that is a very, VERY subjective statement. Instead, the game is saying "you mastered this weapon/frame? Ok, prove it! Let's see what you can do with this combination. If you can prove yourself, then here's a prize

Uh, no it is not? There's gear that performs efficiently against high level content and gear that doesn't, this is... i dunno, plainly obvious to anyone who plays? You cannot expect consistent performance between content that has vastly different use cases or power levels, you can't simply "master" the acrid into competing with the laetum, what in the world...

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , Kaiga 说:

Uh, no it is not? There's gear that performs efficiently against high level content and gear that doesn't, this is... i dunno, plainly obvious to anyone who plays? You cannot expect consistent performance between content that has vastly different use cases or power levels, you can't simply "master" the acrid into competing with the laetum, what in the world...

No one said all weapons should be equal.

The point is, all weapons, if mod and done correctly, should be able to handle SP contents. And the new game mode is not even SP for void sake.

Most weapons may not be sufficient for SP endless, that's why in Duviri SP circuit it is offset by decrees.

btw here is your acrid build if you are interested.

引用

https://youtu.be/g1nymqTJc0k?si=oWOKfBbzQNT0zFlG