Nourish isn't the problem

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, trst said:

Is this a joke? Nullifiers stopped being an obstacle years ago. Literally just shoot the bubble, run in to kill the Nullifier then recast whatever you need to, use your Operator to kill them/pop the bubble, or equip your Sentinel/Companion with a gun that's good against them. Also actually using your weapons/Companions happens to be the same answer to Overguard.

 

Getting the chance to shoot a Nullifier bubble or even get close. That's the real joke. They shot you out of the sky a room away and outside Rad procs there wasn't a thing you could do about it. Re-cast CC? You mean die? I'm well aware Nullifiers were created to hinder room wide CC but DE also stopped making frames with it.

There's only a handful of frames with room wide CC left and no one plays them thanks to additions like that.

Overguard does nothing because the meta was already forced into eHP + DPS.
It only serves to further cripple frames that need ability protection like Snow Globe since CC died. Instead of making Enemy Damage Scaling more linear like they should have years ago then toned down CC radius. They just keep adding band-aids that limit both play experience and frame design. Great job.

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

It's because most of the Helminth abilities are bad to the point of being unusable outside of gimmick builds. Nourish isn't a gimmick. It will benefit you no matter what you are running. They would have to apply a pretty catastrophic nerf to Nourish to get people to stop using it. I'm talking something stupid like completely removing energy regen and putting a 5 second cooldown on viral procs. 

[Xzorn]

50 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

people are worried about the energy part not the viral, energy is the reason most people use nourish 

 

The primary problem I see with reducing the energy gain is for Armor based DR frames.

Majority need to run Arcane Deflection or they will just pop. Nourish allows them to forgo using Energize. ie My Excal uses Deflection + Reaper with Nourish. If somehow Nourish doesn't keep up with Blind spam and energy drain then I'd have to drop Reaper for Energize again. Same deal with my Chroma except using Grace.

Have to see.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Gloom: good for health tanking, misses up with enemy spawn 
Roar: great dmg buff, requires very high strength
Eclipse: weapon dmg buff, atm clunky and next update useless
Dispensary: might need equilibrium, you need to be camping to make full use for it
Pillage: good for shieldgating, requires a very HUGE amount of strength to fully strip
Breach surge: good dmg, needs reasonable range and high strength
Resonator: good survivability for warframes who have ZERO survivability
Terrify: armor strip that doesn't work on acolytes and has an enemy limit
Xata's whisper: weapon buff
Tharros strike: defense strip, great but that's it 
Wrathful advance: good for some melee warframes
Pull/Ensnare/Larva: grouping that has been replace by nautilus which is literally an automated grouping
Those are the ones that come to my mind atm as for nourish it offers energy economy allowing us to spam abilities and make better use of zenurik and buffs weapons with viral allowing us to mode for corrosive, it makes exalted warframe a lot more comfortable to play, allows warframes like styanax/frost to spam their 4th ability and stack a ton of overguard, someone like oberon would have never been used without something like nourish due to his terrible energy and let's not get started on platform warframes
SO yeah i'll obviously use the ability that lets me do all these things over an ability that lets me do ONE thing unless i'm in a very specific mission like archon hunt for example 

 

I feel that some of the times you mention "requires/needs X" is just perception bias and you arent really required to do that,

and some of the abilities you mentioned are missing some of the secondary (sometimes tertiary) effects that make them so efffective as well.

This is of course a matter of opinion , but i consider only a quarter of them worth the investment, there are others that with the right frames fills up the gaps they had with their original kit.

What you are describing feels more like getting used to a crutch than anything else.

[Xzorn]

I would add most Armor Strip abilities are kinda niche now.

Tau Emerald +3 pretty much became standard on every frame for me. Depending on your weapon and Armor type it's better or equal than Armor Strip.
No other shard is going to give you +58% total damage against Ferrite. This wasn't far from the case before Corrosive Status rework either really.

There was a topic almost daily about armor scaling and I just went about by days shredding in seconds. I've used Torrid going around 8 years.

Augments for Helmith skills are another awkward situation. Piercing Roar is actually pretty solid for mitigation but there's no room.

[Aerikx]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

people are worried about the energy part not the viral, energy is the reason most people use nourish 

Just a hunch but I suspect DE will just remove the energy regeneration and reactivate Nourish's self-heal.

That'd be quite the trade.

Making nourish extremely useful for many frames in late game survivability.

[Marvelous_A]

7 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

If Nourish wasn't a problem, then there'd be a more equitable usage spread among those 15 abilities.  But it was a clear outlier.

Which isn't to say that there isn't also an issue where certain Helminth abilities were dead on arrival; there is!  But that's a different problem, with a different solution.

We shouldn't pretend like there's only one problem with the Helminth system that will require one solution to fix.  The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

Nourish isn't a problem. It's a solution to energy economy and viral supremacy.

[SDGDen]

7 hours ago, Waeleto said:

people are worried about the energy part not the viral, energy is the reason most people use nourish 

god it's just the zenurik nerf from focus 1.0 all over again.

people got too used to their practically infinite energy so they could spam AOE abilities to their heart's content.

now when their toy is taken away and they have to ya know.... actually *think* before casting, they get pissed off.

 

yall. this was coming. everyone knew this was coming. im honestly more surprised they didnt flat-out say "we're removing nourish's energy boosting component from the subsumed version". 

did ANYONE really think "bonus viral damage, best damage type in the game, PLUS AOE viral if you get hit, PLUS doubling the effectiveness of all energy sources... FOR YOUR ENTIRE TEAM" was going to continue being a thing you could do on every single warframe? 

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

If a system requires tons of adjustments it means that it's badly implemented

Helminth from the get go was going to be a gamble.  It was never going to land on it's face perfectly because of how wild the game is for your arsenal.  I'm personally of the opinion that it should've never been made as a system.  Or at least helminth should've been something that created new abilities that could be used on all frames.  Not take WF abilities from other frames.  Regardless there is no "good" way to fix it, but I don't think that makes it badly implemented.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

just another change to the Meta, when all is said and done. people will probably move on to whatever the next-most used ability is, or they'll simply avoid the system until a new frame comes out who's got a busted subsumable and use that. life goes on. 

[Raid33nMG]

13 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

If Nourish wasn't a problem, then there'd be a more equitable usage spread among those 15 abilities.  But it was a clear outlier.

Which isn't to say that there isn't also an issue where certain Helminth abilities were dead on arrival; there is!  But that's a different problem, with a different solution.

We shouldn't pretend like there's only one problem with the Helminth system that will require one solution to fix.  The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

The reason it's so popular is because 90%, of helminth abilities are useless. They need to make more of them worth using, and nourish wouldn't be so popular. It's a great ability, but nerfing it is a poor decision. It's not hurting anything, and it's the difference between some frames being awesome and fun, and borderline unplayable.

 

 

Edited February 24 by Raid33nMG

[ValtrPrime]

5小时前 , SDGDen 说:

god it's just the zenurik nerf from focus 1.0 all over again.

people got too used to their practically infinite energy so they could spam AOE abilities to their heart's content.

now when their toy is taken away and they have to ya know.... actually *think* before casting, they get pissed off.

 

yall. this was coming. everyone knew this was coming. im honestly more surprised they didnt flat-out say "we're removing nourish's energy boosting component from the subsumed version".

did ANYONE really think "bonus viral damage, best damage type in the game, PLUS AOE viral if you get hit, PLUS doubling the effectiveness of all energy sources... FOR YOUR ENTIRE TEAM" was going to continue being a thing you could do on every single warframe?

 

In fact I've transplanted nourishment for Atlas (Prime)• Baruuk (Prime)• Caliban • Chroma (Prime)• Frost (Prime)• Garuda (Prime)• Harrow (Prime)• Hydroid (Prime)• Kullervo • Mag (Prime)• Mirage (Prime)• Nekros (Prime)• Nidus (Prime)• Oberon (Prime)• Protea • Qorvex • Revenant (Prime)• Saryn (Prime)• Sevagoth • Styanax • Vauban (Prime)• Volt (Prime)• Voruna • Wisp (Prime)• Xaku, because the negative effects of [ Blind Rage ] are too powerful and lethal, and my warframe build is extremely reliant on strength for its benefits, and you might wonder why it needs strength so much, because DE is already choking me in its numerical design, forcing me to build this way. I need nourishment to get more slots, more MOD options, and this update will definitely affect my architecture very much. So I feel very funny about your words.Great job

10小时前 , 0_The_F00l 说:

What you are describing feels more like getting used to a crutch than anything else.

Yes indeed,I'm Grandma Turtle fromDark Souls Ⅲ。

I really can't live without this cane

This feeling of helplessness makes me feel very Funny

[0_The_F00l]

33 minutes ago, ValtrPrime said:

Yes indeed,I'm Grandma Turtle fromDark Souls Ⅲ。

I really can't live without this cane

This feeling of helplessness makes me feel very Funny

Time to get out of your shell grandma,

[TheKurtiStryke]

if they nerf the viral damage, i'm completely fine, i mostly use nourish just for energy efficiency.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Warframe already has a boring formula found in other live service games that couldn't keep a handle on the power creep and pace of the game. People with thousands of hours in this game have already conformed to the easy, no consequences nature of this game. Warframe doesn't respect your time nor does it respect your intelligence nd willingness to overcome obstacles through skill. This is what makes it, overall, a bad game imo even if it is consumer friendly. It's still fun, but many bad games are somewhat fun.

If you don't like nerfs, why aren't you supportive even more buffs? Why don't you want to kill 1,000 enemies a minute with even more AoE? Is there a point when gameplay could be so mindless that it's no longer enjoyable, like 1-button nuking a 1,000 meter tileset? For me, that threshold is a lot lower in that even using Vazarin Protective Sling every 5 seconds without Rolling Guard or Brief Respite/Augur mods at level cap is too brainless. I'm not good at the game. It's just way too simple and unchallenging. When I first learned the concept of shield-gating, I had no trouble with it. The people who do have trouble with it have not learned how to manage their energy economy or simply do not like the playstyle. Oh, use Adaptation and armor with some shield/health mods? Congrats, the game is then even more brainless.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't enjoy the game at all anymore and it's time to move on. I've played for less than a year and I'm at this point, but I think it's natural reaction. I don't understand how people don't get bored with playing this game for thousands of hours while also sticking with it for 10 years. It's probably because of the powercreep and the dopamine that comes with it along with the variety in dressing up their frames. I wouldn't mind if this game shone brightly for 4 years and then died. Why is that such a bad thing?  But now, it's like a black hole, trying to drag in any new player while compressing the veterans at the core into a density so high that their concerns could never see the light of day.

 

It's not up to others to explain how or why you should like a game. Either take a break, play it or don't play it I guess. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Raid33nMG said:

The reason it's so popular is because 90%, of helminth abilities are useless. They need to make more of them worth using, and nourish wouldn't be so popular. It's a great ability, but nerfing it is a poor decision. It's not hurting anything, and it's the difference between some frames being awesome and fun, and borderline unplayable.

 

 

If all abilities were scaling burst damage that stripped armor you guys would still only pick the strongest one. 

The masses lack of imagination also factors in. There's also a lot of choices and every single one isn't meant to be used. 

It's not even physically possible (without sacrificing your health) to use all frames and abilities on a consistent basis.

[SneakyErvin]

Honestly the coming nourish nerf is a buff in my eyes. Sure it will suck to lose a bit of the energy buff, but it will be a huge improvement on the viral part since all I want that part for is to proc viral somewhat reliably, I dont need huge amounts of it, just enough so it procs without reducing the proc rate of other things.

So this will be an improvement for most of my builds that use it, most notably those that use melee influence. So win-win!

Oh and thank you DE.

[SDGDen]

2 hours ago, ValtrPrime said:

In fact I've transplanted nourishment for Atlas (Prime)• Baruuk (Prime)• Caliban • Chroma (Prime)• Frost (Prime)• Garuda (Prime)• Harrow (Prime)• Hydroid (Prime)• Kullervo • Mag (Prime)• Mirage (Prime)• Nekros (Prime)• Nidus (Prime)• Oberon (Prime)• Protea • Qorvex • Revenant (Prime)• Saryn (Prime)• Sevagoth • Styanax • Vauban (Prime)• Volt (Prime)• Voruna • Wisp (Prime)• Xaku, because the negative effects of [ Blind Rage ] are too powerful and lethal, and my warframe build is extremely reliant on strength for its benefits, and you might wonder why it needs strength so much, because DE is already choking me in its numerical design, forcing me to build this way. I need nourishment to get more slots, more MOD options, and this update will definitely affect my architecture very much. So I feel very funny about your words.Great job

weird, none of my builds need blind rage, and most of them are entirely fine for literally any mission you could do with the exception of long-term endurance.

most of my builds are also zero forma.

most of my builds also dont have nourish.

 

TLDR: sounds like a skill issue. learn to build in a way that doesnt rely on nourish.

 

[Zquiel]

If DE just nerf the energy gain and not erased, my Garuda build will be happy.

If is erased, well I hope archon reach and equilibrium save my girl because the viral damage from nourish is perfect for Garuda.

[ValtrPrime]

1小时前 , SDGDen 说:

most of my builds are also zero forma.

If most of constructs are 0 forma, then we're not really in the same line. is like a note on the side of a cookie.

[Redrigoth]

I'm fine if they nerf it so it gives 35% viral and 1.5x energy multiplier(still scales with strength). Would be disappointed if they ruin it though.

It is a nice ability for -50% ability efficiency builds. Abilities start costing 150 energy per cast

[ValtrPrime]

3小时前 , 0_The_F00l 说:

Time to get out of your shell grandma,

I just hope it doesn't go like a boomerang. go self

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

The Helminth version of Roar is nerfed, yet it's the second most used subsume ability in the game. I'm sure Nourish will remain on top even at lower effectiveness.

Besides, if any of you bothered to listen to the devstream. Rebecca explicitly said they don't want to nerf it into the ground and if the usage rate drops significantly they will review it again. Cool your heads!

[ZantenZan]

Do we even know yet the extent of the nerf? What I dug up suggested they're not removing any of the ability's effects, but rather lowering the numbers to some degree. Because it does absolutely make sense that Nourish would be the most commonly used ability, it not only offers a very strong damage boost with a desirable Viral proc for even more damage potential, but there's also the way it can sometimes singlehandedly eliminates energy economy for a ton of builds. Singlehandedly is the operative word here, because I've been able to run builds that regularly use abilities, have only 80-90% Ability Efficiency and have no passive energy regen mods by beefing up Ability Strength and triggering Nourish. The only times I've used a different ability have been to benefit very specific builds, like Volt's Shock or Hildryn's Pillage.

I do agree a lot of the other Helminth abilities need to be reworked to make them, well, even kind of versatile. But beefing every ability up to Nourish's current level? ...how would that even happen, short of just making them all copies of Nourish? How do you match a Corrosive/Viral build PLUS functionally unlimited energy across 50+ other abilities while still making them seem somewhat different? In theory (generally not in practise unfortunately,) there isn't really supposed to be a 'One Size Fits All' and Nourish comes closer to that than anything else.

Like, would the preference here be that they keep the energy economy as is but remove the Viral proc, or allow only one of the effects to run at a time? Or is this literally 'I want maximum damage AND unlimited energy' kind of thinking?

[Graavarg]

On 2024-02-24 at 2:32 AM, trst said:

Again players refusing to think outside the tiny box they choose to reside in is the problem here.

And the label on that box says "easy and unchallenged win".

Warframe's "play it until you hate it"-design does make a point for being focusing on smooth efficiency when farming, but otherwise I think some marbles have been lost along the way. I actually can't think of another game where the player can achieve this amount of overpoweredness this quickly, and keep that op:ness going for the rest of the game. We have literally hundreds and hundreds of ways of managing ALL the content in the game, even without going all in on the multitude of buffing mechanisms available. DE even cheats on our behalf, giving us "special rules" for damage and status effects compared to the enemies, and adding mathematical overlays to keep us alive.

Mission success in Warframe is probably close to 99%, and most of the failed missions are either voluntary "quits" or bugged out missions. In a game that easy, what does it matter if DE tweaks a weapon or an ability a bit? We have another hundred ways "to win", at least.