Nourish isn't the problem

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

7 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

is it even a problem? what is wrong with more people choosing something ? is it upsetting the balance of the game and braking something ? NO

Pablo basically said "I dont want someone to come along and go, well I like this but its wrong to put this on because nourish is better" (said no one except Pablo)

they are literally nerfing it not for balance but because more people choose it they are not the same.

And yet people are arguing about the lack of options in helminth, it doesn't matter if those other options get buffed and letting Nourish go untouched.

This stuff matters for them, if something is too strong new content becomes unappealing because people don't feel the need to buy the new stuff since what they already have is too strong

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

And yet people are arguing about the lack of options in helminth, it doesn't matter if those other options get buffed and letting Nourish go untouched.

This stuff matters for them, if something is too strong new content becomes unappealing because people don't feel the need to buy the new stuff since what they already have is too strong

maybe they should stop giving the weakest ability of new warframes as a helminth and try what they did with sevagoth/grendel then 

[_Anise_]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

people don't feel the need to buy the new stuff since what they already have is too strong

I already have godlike weapons and warframe builds that can wipe maps and melt enemies but I will still farm at least one copy of every next new warframe, build the next incarnon weapon or prime weapon for the quirk that DE adds to the game.

generally I will put ONE helminth on a frame that synergies with a build and leave that on, what if people do that with Nourish, what if they tank the effect of damage and  energy restore by 70% and people just leave it and keep subsuming it, do they second pass and knock it down to 60% ? then 50% .. 40% until people stop using it ? at that point aren't they just unbalancing something negatively to make people not use it while making the game experience worse as a result?

what if they buff roar ? we don;t want roar and nourish to be the only 2 abilities people use?, then put some good abilities In helminth, like Voruna for example, put in her stealth since no one is using her energy generator? OMG OP ?? but her stealth breaks on gunfire and melee but not ability cast, which is how and what people are currently using shade for! it would create a whole new build for some squish caster frames and be a place people wouldn't use roar / nourish.

I also wonder how they are measuring it? because I was looking through helminth options thinking most of these are bad or situational stuff I just won't use and just threw nourish on a frame mostly for the damge procs because I didn't want another roar frame and wasn't building for high str and already had energy ecnomy and armor strip, then I never played that frame again, does that factor into their numbers or are they factoring in /played with that subsume ?

 

Edited February 26 by _Anise_

[RichardKam]

25分钟前 , Raikh 说:

It being optional doesn't mean it shouldn't be somewhat balanced to offer interesting choices. Ofc balance would never be perfect but there should atleast be an attempt to introduce useful abilities into the system, rather than abilities the Warframe seeks to replace or ignore themselves, which is also an indicator that something may not be quite right with the original Warframe and thus hinting to a larger issue.

Hmmm. This is a tricky one because there are so many things to do in this game, what does it means by useful? Master summon with moa combo is niche. Is it useful compared to roar?

The same reason why we do not compare apple and orange.

29分钟前 , Raikh 说:

You can't really argue Helminth balance is irrelevant and turn around and say a Helminth ability is too powerful. If balance doesn't matter at all then something being way too strong doesn't matter either. Otherwise I agree that Nourish in its current state is probably too good but on DEs terms they have been balancing more around popularity than straight up power and if most Helminth choices are inherently uncompelling nerfing Nourish to a reasonable level will probably not have a notable impact on that end.

I was not saying Nourish is too powerful. I was saying Nourish is an outlier. Which helminth ability gives you three (or is it four?) buff at once, with one of them being on par with full rank energize? Even gloom gives you only two (slow and healing).

[Raikh]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Hmmm. This is a tricky one because there are so many things to do in this game, what does it means by useful? Master summon with moa combo is niche. Is it useful compared to roar?

It is tricky and useful niche applications are definitely something to consider. Balance doesn't have to mean homogenization where everything needs to be comparable on the same scale. But there are plenty of Helminth abilities that are not only unpopular or niche but powerful/valuable enough if you are looking for what they provide. And I think shaking some things up on the lower end of the spectrum is easily just as helpful to the system as reigning in outliers at the top,

But as stated before these things also tend to hint at issues with the original Warframe and as we all know even the most minor changes happen at best at glacial speed so I understand that some might have almost entirely given up on the prospect of an active balancing process ever being a thing in this game.

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I was not saying Nourish is too powerful. I was saying Nourish is an outlier. Which helminth ability gives you three (or is it four?) buff at once, with one of them being on par with full rank energize? Even gloom gives you only two (slow and healing).

That sounds to me like its very much the same thing in this case. How many different things an ability provides does not necessarily make it an outlier worth adressing, but ultimately how meaningful the impact of these things is. I'd also argue that most people using Nourish mostly care about the energy and just see whatever else it provides as a cherry on top. Especially the Retaliation effect is something I expect comparatively few people to care about.
And from the way it sounded on the stream, we're not expecting a change in functionality but numerical changes. So it may still provide 3 effects after the nerf, just less potent ones, which is leading us back to the power aspect. And hypothetically, if they decided to remove the retaliation effect but leave the other aspects unchanged, I think a lot of people would celebrate that they dodged a bullet moreso than if they reduced the energy gen increase of the ability.

[SDGDen]

On 2024-02-26 at 2:09 PM, Berzerkules said:

Making the decision to challenge yourself by gimping your potential from the beginning of a game is just something I would never do so I don't understand it. Willingly not adding forma to frames is completely ignoring a basic part of this games design that effects how players use their abilities. Forgoing that aspect of the game then telling others how abilities are supposed to work just doesn't make sense to me. We aren't coming from the same place, our in game experience just isn't the same and our expectations aren't going to align. 

our experience isnt the same, precisely.

i come from an era where mid-game you didn't even *think* about formaing your frames

i come from an era where level 80 non-SP grineer were considered so difficult you *Had* to have a full squad of corrosive projection.

i come from an era where trinity and loki were meta picks.

i started playing warframe in 2014, long before 5 or 6 forma builds became meta. people would run 1 or 2 forma when they reached endgame and *that was it*. there were no archon shards, practically no primed mods, no exilus mod slot, no umbra mods, no archon mods. the only expensive mods were corrupted mods and those were frequently not even maxed so you could counter their downside with a single regular mod.

not to mention: forma was not nearly as plentiful as it is now. the relic system wasnt implemented yet, forma came from the various void missions, where they shared the drop table with prime parts. level 40 content was not considered "super easy" at that time so until you hit the late-game you weren't going to really get many forma. clans spent *weeks* keysharing their various defense and survival keys so they could stock up on forma for their dojo.

on top of that, i personally don't enjoy relic missions or re-leveling frames over and over again, especially because for much of my "mid-game" experience, the system where you keep capacity based on your MR wasnt there yet. formaing didn't stop being a massive pain in the clem until i was already an endgame player, and by then, why would i do it? i was doing endgame content without needing any forma. what's the point?

 

our experiences are different, in that i have much more experience with a much wider range of subjects in the game, our expectations are different, because i'm much more aware of the place warframe came from, the design decisions that led to this point, the reasons for those design decisions. the reasoning behind your argument shows nothing but a false sense of superiority.

 

[ValtrPrime]

5小时前 , SDGDen 说:

our experience isnt the same, precisely.

i come from an era where mid-game you didn't even *think* about formaing your frames

i come from an era where level 80 non-SP grineer were considered so difficult you *Had* to have a full squad of corrosive projection.

i come from an era where trinity and loki were meta picks.

Now is now, and then was before. If you want to compare yourself in this way, why don't you compare yourself to the person you were when you were born.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

1 minute ago, ValtrPrime said:

Now is now, and then was before. If you want to compare yourself in this way, why don't you compare yourself to the person you were when you were born.

are you on drugs

[ValtrPrime]

4分钟前 , Ghastly-Ghoul 说:

are you on drugs

German translation is difficult

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

18 minutes ago, ValtrPrime said:

German translation is difficult

I don't understand how you can take his comparison of the state of the game in 2014 to the state of the game 10 years later and have it parallel a situation like comparing oneself to an unborn, nonexistent version of yourself. It doesn't make any sense.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

On 2024-02-24 at 10:37 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not up to others to explain how or why you should like a game. Either take a break, play it or don't play it I guess. 

It seems I struck a chord with you as you failed to comprehend what I said. I wasn't demanding an explanation but merely requesting. It is up to others to make the decision to answer my questions and they aren't being forced to.

People share their opinion for many reasons and just because mine is negative does not mean it should be discarded or shutdown by responses that aren't even related to what I was asking. I wasn't asking why I should like this game.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[makaloff95]

On 2024-02-24 at 2:31 AM, Waeleto said:

I agree, and many warframes nowaday require their abilities to be spammed, atlas/caliban/dagath/frost/gara/hydroid/khora/kullervo/oberon/qorvex/sevagoth/styanax
Nourish offers an option to play them without STARVING for energy the whole game

Valkyr is starving aswell due to how ridicoulus high energy drain her 4th have, even when you max the efficency

On 2024-02-24 at 2:32 AM, trst said:

And there's a dozen different ways to generate/manage energy that isn't Nourish. A 1e/s buff would do nothing for those players and isn't remotely necessary.

Also the Eximus rework did nothing. CC abilities have been trash for the majority of the game's life and even then are still entirely usable considering only a tiny fraction of the enemies in a mission are even Eximus units.

Again players refusing to think outside the tiny box they choose to reside in is the problem here.

feel free to give me recommendations what to use on valkyr then to deal with the big energy drain her 4th has (and yes, im running max efficency through both dur+eff so i cannot get the energy drain any lower than i have atm)

[trst]

3 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

feel free to give me recommendations what to use on valkyr then to deal with the big energy drain her 4th has (and yes, im running max efficency through both dur+eff so i cannot get the energy drain any lower than i have atm)

If you're aiming for 100% up time on any toggle ability that doesn't allow Rage to work then you need a source of energy orbs. Which would include the following:

Via Helminth there's Spectrorage +augment, Fractured Blast, and Dispensary. As well anything that generates health orbs works via Equilibrium/Violet Shards which includes: Well of Life +augment, Fractured Blast, Dispensary, and *Lycath's Hunt (*this also works for energy but not while focusing on melee).

Via Companions there's the surprisingly reliable option of Dethcube's Energy Generator then the far less reliable options of Charm's energy refund buff and Dig possibly generating orbs. Also there's Synth Deconstruct for health orb synergies.

There's the Parazon mods Blood For Life/Energy for more orbs per Eximus.

And to top it all off there's Amber Shards and Arcane Energized for more energy per orb.

Edited February 28 by trst

[Berzerkules]

13 hours ago, SDGDen said:

our experiences are different, in that i have much more experience with a much wider range of subjects in the game, our expectations are different, because i'm much more aware of the place warframe came from, the design decisions that led to this point, the reasons for those design decisions. the reasoning behind your argument shows nothing but a false sense of superiority.

This is some elitist bs right here. Not all of us were in a position to find this game or had time to game when WF came out but we all eventually found it and all of our opinions have some merit. You're projecting your own false sense of superiority on me. 

We've all run through the star chart with basic builds and pea shooters but some of us have chosen progress past that. You can live in the past and try and play the game as it was in the days of yore, you're totally free to play this game however you want but it's 2024 not 2014.

Just because you started before me does not mean you have more experience. You have experienced the game though it's progression but I bet that my play time, missions completed and kill count far exceeds yours. 

[Waeleto]

18 hours ago, SDGDen said:

our experiences are different, in that i have much more experience with a much wider range of subjects in the game, our expectations are different, because i'm much more aware of the place warframe came from, the design decisions that led to this point, the reasons for those design decisions. the reasoning behind your argument shows nothing but a false sense of superiority.

LMAO

Just because you started the game before me or in a time when players had less tools doesn't make you any more aware or better than me or ANYONE

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

8 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

feel free to give me recommendations what to use on valkyr then to deal with the big energy drain her 4th has (and yes, im running max efficency through both dur+eff so i cannot get the energy drain any lower than i have atm)

Lycath's hunt with equilibrium, that's what I use.

[ValtrPrime]

14小时前 , Ghastly-Ghoul 说:

It seems I struck a chord with you as you failed to comprehend what I said. I wasn't demanding an explanation but merely requesting. It is up to others to make the decision to answer my questions and they aren't being forced to.

People share their opinion for many reasons and just because mine is negative does not mean it should be discarded or shutdown by responses that aren't even related to what I was asking. I wasn't asking why I should like this game.

?? ? I think you'd be surprised if my grandfather couldn't have a normal exchange of opinions and opinions with another old man who served in the army when he was young just because he didn't serve in the army. Game credentials don't mean anything; they may affect your construction and understanding of the game. But it doesn't help to have a conversation that's completely out of line. A word is not enough.

[Drachnyn]

Am 26.2.2024 um 16:14 schrieb _Anise_:

I already have godlike weapons and warframe builds that can wipe maps and melt enemies but I will still farm at least one copy of every next new warframe, build the next incarnon weapon or prime weapon for the quirk that DE adds to the game.

generally I will put ONE helminth on a frame that synergies with a build and leave that on, what if people do that with Nourish, what if they tank the effect of damage and  energy restore by 70% and people just leave it and keep subsuming it, do they second pass and knock it down to 60% ? then 50% .. 40% until people stop using it ? at that point aren't they just unbalancing something negatively to make people not use it while making the game experience worse as a result?

what if they buff roar ? we don;t want roar and nourish to be the only 2 abilities people use?, then put some good abilities In helminth, like Voruna for example, put in her stealth since no one is using her energy generator? OMG OP ?? but her stealth breaks on gunfire and melee but not ability cast, which is how and what people are currently using shade for! it would create a whole new build for some squish caster frames and be a place people wouldn't use roar / nourish.

I also wonder how they are measuring it? because I was looking through helminth options thinking most of these are bad or situational stuff I just won't use and just threw nourish on a frame mostly for the damge procs because I didn't want another roar frame and wasn't building for high str and already had energy ecnomy and armor strip, then I never played that frame again, does that factor into their numbers or are they factoring in /played with that subsume ?

 

Yea I dont really see how even a harsh reduction in nourish values can facilitate a more even usage between helminth abilities. Sure, some people might swap to roar but is a duality of two abilities at the top that much better than just one? So many other helminth abilities arent just not used because nourish exists, they're also bad on their own.

[makaloff95]

11 hours ago, trst said:

If you're aiming for 100% up time on any toggle ability that doesn't allow Rage to work then you need a source of energy orbs. Which would include the following:

Via Helminth there's Spectrorage +augment, Fractured Blast, and Dispensary. As well anything that generates health orbs works via Equilibrium/Violet Shards which includes: Well of Life +augment, Fractured Blast, Dispensary, and *Lycath's Hunt (*this also works for energy but not while focusing on melee).

Via Companions there's the surprisingly reliable option of Dethcube's Energy Generator then the far less reliable options of Charm's energy refund buff and Dig possibly generating orbs. Also there's Synth Deconstruct for health orb synergies.

There's the Parazon mods Blood For Life/Energy for more orbs per Eximus.

And to top it all off there's Amber Shards and Arcane Energized for more energy per orb.

i see, that is some interesting alternatives. only downside is that you will have to sacrifice damage to get them (fitting augment+ eq) or having to give up shards in order to keep a good energy economy compared to Nourish. but maybe that points to valkyr needing a redesign of her toolkit rather than helminth issue

[Nira]

On 2024-02-26 at 2:39 PM, _Anise_ said:

Pablo basically said "I dont want someone to come along and go, well I like this but its wrong to put this on because nourish is better" (said no one except Pablo)

I've heard a number of people say just that, when I said I'd rather have Warding Thurible on Harrow instead of replacing the ability with Nourish.

Certain frames, like Harrow, Nidus, and Zephyr, have inherently excellent ability synergy to the point replacing any of them makes no sense to me, and also breaks the overall theme/gameplay loop of the frame. Imagine subsuming Gyre's zappy ball on, idk Loki or Hydroid. Thematically it just makes no sense.

There's also the argument that the whole Helminth system was just a bandaid to avoid looking at outdated or just outright bad abilities. 

[Hexerin]

On 2024-02-24 at 8:53 AM, SDGDen said:

weird, none of my builds need blind rage, and most of them are entirely fine for literally any mission you could do with the exception of long-term endurance.

most of my builds are also zero forma.

most of my builds also dont have nourish.

 

TLDR: sounds like a skill issue. learn to build in a way that doesnt rely on nourish.

 

If your builds are zero forma, you're either running normal star chart (and thus your opinion on balance is pretty much irrelevant) or your team is carrying you (because you're dead weight on Steel Path).

Edited February 29 by Hexerin

[Waeleto]

13 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

If your builds are zero forma, you're either running normal star chart (and thus your opinion on balance is pretty much irrelevant) or your team is carrying you (because you're dead weight on Steel Path).

It's a case of "i don't like using the tools given to me by the game so you all should do the same or you're not as good as me" smh ...

[_Anise_]

 

3 hours ago, Nira said:

I've heard a number of people say just that,

I was quoting a streamer I watched the live reaction to the devsteam, though I don't know why players put such high value on nourish being OP when you can get a free energy economy from focus, arcanes, companions, some weapons even .. (and to a lesser extent from mods)

3 hours ago, Nira said:

'd rather have Warding Thurible on Harrow instead of replacing the ability with Nourish.

then do it ? peoples will should be greater than mindlessly following the meta ? then the nourish usage numbers go down, consequently they don't need to nerf it?

hypothitically tomorrow 99% of players subsume cloak arrow over octavia stealth because they hate crouch spam, do DE say "well maybe we should address how stealth works on Octavia" or do they go "lets nerf the range on stealth arrow"

Edited February 29 by _Anise_

[Aruquae]

Unpopular opinion

They should just take away the viral damage boost, but keep the energy 

OR

They reduce both by 50% at least

I am ready for the nerfs DE, do your worst

[Nira]

4 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

then do it ? peoples will should be greater than mindlessly following the meta ? then the nourish usage numbers go down, consequently they don't need to nerf it?

That was precisely my point, both in an earlier post and replying to yours, that I'd encountered players who mindlessly follow the meta to an extent they label "outside" builds as bad.

I do indeed use Warding Thurible religiously (pun mostly intended)