Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[ECCHOSIERRA]

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

I understand you want to hold them accountable for misleading players, but I appreciate them showcasing a backbone to make a hard decision that benefits the game long-term. I guess we're just on the opposite ends of the receiving end of this change.

Historically, this is how most devstream/dev workshop changes go over. The information they give us is their predetermined commitment. Eclipse has gone unchanged far too long. It should have been changed when Vex Armor was, but we're here now, and it's changing now. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for a live service game.

I just want to make clear as well that I am not trying to shut down players "speaking up", just trying to get them to wake up. Welcome to the "Temporary removal of Trials" club, founded February 7th, 2018.

I love it when people claim that somebody else doing something they like shows "backbone" or something to that effect just because. 

 

Because agreeing with me is Right and True and Brave and Virtuous and only a spineless coward would disagree, right?

It absolutely seems like youre trying to bash people into "shutting and taking it".

The funny thing is you could be in favor of eclipse being nerfed and in favor of it being re worked. You could argue that the "light" part of the ability is janky and has always been janky and you could also argue that a multiplicative damage buff of up to a bazillion percent is OP. 

Personally im annoyed because first of all they objectively werent honest. Second, im not sure if they even meant to nerf mirage or if this is unintentional because they legitimately dont understand why this would be an issue.

And now im waiting for them to change the math behind roar or any other multiplicative buff.

[Weapon_11]

While I understand wanting to nerf the helminth version of the ability, to affect the frame version for a frame that itself that is not even in the top 10 most used frame just seems unnecessary. I for one would go for a nerfed helminth ability but keep a stronger version for the original frame that the very ability was developed for. However, to affect not just the helminth but the frame version itself, even though it was mentioned during the Devstream that only the helminth eclipse would be revised is egregious. This is a frame that is (1) not overused, and (2) has a more unique playstyle than other frames. Eclipse is at the core of endgame Mirage builds, this is what allows her to be scalable and useable in high level content. To take away the effectiveness of her core ability, and making it additive not only decreases the variety of frames players get to use in endgame content, but takes away what makes the frame able to be a great option if used properly. You simply have to look at the damage calculations presented by other players regarding the eclipse change, the falloff is so dramatic that there is really no way other way to see this update as a "Big L" for Mirage players in endgame content.

The whole point of specific abilities like Eclipse is to give frames the ability to be used in higher level gameplay. By decreasing the effectiveness for Mirage herself, it is not just reducing an alternative frame for endgame levels but also discourages players, both experienced and new, to learn how to play Mirage. Players will usually gravitate towards the endgame and builds that allow them to succeed. It is totally understandable to remove the effectiveness of the helminth version of Eclipse as this ability can be exploited on other frames. But with Mirage, who already is not overly used, decreasing this ability for the frame only pushes players away from not only learning how to use the frame but it also further creates a greater dominance among the top used frames. Less scalable options = less diversity in Warframe usage. Nobody wants to see a relay full of Revenants or Wukongs, or even play in a full squad of them. We preach diversity yet we can't seem to see what this update does to Warframe variety. I for one am heavily displeased with the recent announcement and really thought a better solution was going to be implemented. Really hope DE reconsiders what they are about to do, because so far from what I've seen from other players' response, nerfing eclipse on Mirage is not right.

[Slayer-.]

TL;DR Yeah nerf the Helminth part but leave the actual Mirage frame out of the fight over the abilities used on other frames, got it.  👍 

 

[SDGDen]

another one for the pile!

but fr, multiplicative buffs as a whole are overpowered and anyone with any knowledge of game design could have seen this coming.

imho, they shouldve replaced eclipse with one of mirage's other abilities altogether on helminth. same with nourish and roar, they're too strong to be available on all frames.

idk, from mirage, lets put her sleight of hand as the helminth ability instead (just maybe halve the range on it to 20 meters base for helminth)

for rhino, switch the subsume to his 1.

for grendel, switch the subsume to his 1, sure, this might seem mildly useless but nourish is clearly too strong to be a subsume ability, his 4 doesnt work as a subsume on its own and his 3 is a transformation so while i'd find it funny to make ball mode universal, it wouldn't work.

 

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I love it when people claim that somebody else doing something they like shows "backbone" or something to that effect just because. 

 

Because agreeing with me is Right and True and Brave and Virtuous and only a spineless coward would disagree, right?

It absolutely seems like youre trying to bash people into "shutting and taking it".

The funny thing is you could be in favor of eclipse being nerfed and in favor of it being re worked. You could argue that the "light" part of the ability is janky and has always been janky and you could also argue that a multiplicative damage buff of up to a bazillion percent is OP. 

Personally im annoyed because first of all they objectively werent honest. Second, im not sure if they even meant to nerf mirage or if this is unintentional because they legitimately dont understand why this would be an issue.

And now im waiting for them to change the math behind roar or any other multiplicative buff.

My "backbone" comment comes from recognizing that sometimes average players whine and as a result hurt the health of the game. It's not often where DE just sticks to their guns. Situations like Hema are several years in the past and quite rare. All I was supporting is that they may do this with Eclipse. That's all I was referring to. It has nothing to do with whether I like something.

The bandaid just has to come off at some point. You can read my other comments if you want to know my stance on the changes. I was supporting this nerf back when they asked players if they wanted a toggle. My comment there actually asked for it to be a different multiplier to create diminishing returns.

Edited February 25 by Voltage

[Voltage]

51 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

another one for the pile!

but fr, multiplicative buffs as a whole are overpowered and anyone with any knowledge of game design could have seen this coming.

imho, they shouldve replaced eclipse with one of mirage's other abilities altogether on helminth. same with nourish and roar, they're too strong to be available on all frames.

idk, from mirage, lets put her sleight of hand as the helminth ability instead (just maybe halve the range on it to 20 meters base for helminth)

for rhino, switch the subsume to his 1.

for grendel, switch the subsume to his 1, sure, this might seem mildly useless but nourish is clearly too strong to be a subsume ability, his 4 doesnt work as a subsume on its own and his 3 is a transformation so while i'd find it funny to make ball mode universal, it wouldn't work.

 

DE rather go the Riven Disposition approach than properly fixing the problem with Helminth.

[DrBorris]

Worse =/= Bad

Also, are yall conveniently forgetting that you never actually got the full buff from Eclipse?

[Traumtulpe]

Hot take: Eclipse is no longer a damage buff, just get Roar if that's what you want. Mirage now has a reliable 95% damage reduction, this is a buff. Hildryn and Inaros now have reliable damage reduction.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Politically_Correct_Name said:

It might appear that way because 200 is smaller than 350 but thats not how math works in gamin damage calculations, especially when you consider theres already many forms of additive damage, this is a massive nerf, no where close to break even.

No and no one implies that it works like that either. You however are only looking at the numbers and ignore everything else that goes into the mechanics of the skill. The upcoming 350% will always be there, at that value, with no variables out of your control. The current 200% might be there, but it is also bound to several rules outside of your control. At times right now you may get nothing or close to nothing from the skill, while other times you might get the full effect. With the upcoming changes you'll always get the value that the skill tells you it will give, meaning you wont end up with a pointlessly low damage increase, or none at all with a pointlessly low DR increase.

The other option we had presented to us was DE fixing light sources in a few maps where they currently do not work. But at no point would this make the current skill any less fluctuating in stats to the point where the buff is next to useless in some cases. 

And since this is a buff that only applies to weapons you can always still replace base damage modding/arcanes for multiplicative options to combine with the new buff, if you actually think you will need to min max when you practically have a 700% base damage buff with a measly +100% strength investment on the frame.

Though my main point is. Current version = not reliable, new version = 100% reliable no matter which of the two uses you want.

[Voltage]

59 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Worse =/= Bad

Also, are yall conveniently forgetting that you never actually got the full buff from Eclipse?

Just wait until they learn how often CO effects ignored Eclipse.

[Monolake]

People dont realize it will be the best helmint 😄

It's becoming the only defensive helmint for 90% DR toggleable to damage buff that actually works everywhere, unlike now.

[Weapon_11]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

TL;DR Yeah nerf the Helminth part but leave the actual Mirage frame out of the fight over the abilities used on other frames, got it.  👍 

 

Amen brother

[Weapon_11]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Worse =/= Bad

Also, are yall conveniently forgetting that you never actually got the full buff from Eclipse?

 

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Hot take: Eclipse is no longer a damage buff, just get Roar if that's what you want. Mirage now has a reliable 95% damage reduction, this is a buff. Hildryn and Inaros now have reliable damage reduction.

While the damage reduction can be good, this does not necessarily translate well into endgame content. We have already seen how 90-95% damage reduction fares into high level SP content - 1 or 2 shot deaths. In these situations, it is better to get rid of enemies before they overwhelm you.

Yea sure, the update will make the new Eclipse more reliable, but even a low value of the old Eclipse that was multiplicative, would still outshine the new max value Eclipse that will be additive. I'm not usually one to post on forums, but since we are all here to discuss, I thought I'd pitch in fellas.

Edited February 25 by Weapon_11

[DeathOfASaint]

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Worse =/= Bad

Also, are yall conveniently forgetting that you never actually got the full buff from Eclipse?

mirage players conveniently forgetting eclipse always showed a max dmg% buff in UI but in reality it was much lower, theyd take a 10% multiplicative buff (which was active for 3 ms) over a 300% additive one lol w 24/7 uptime

Edited February 25 by DeathOfASaint

[Th3bl4cksm1th]

hopefully, the changes don't nerf mirage damage potential too much. 

[---RNGesus---]

This is how it'll go.
This year eclipse nerf.
Next year nerf to whatever replaces it. 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

5 hours ago, Voltage said:

My "backbone" comment comes from recognizing that sometimes average players whine and as a result hurt the health of the game. It's not often where DE just sticks to their guns. Situations like Hema are several years in the past and quite rare. All I was supporting is that they may do this with Eclipse. That's all I was referring to. It has nothing to do with whether I like something.

The bandaid just has to come off at some point. You can read my other comments if you want to know my stance on the changes. I was supporting this nerf back when they asked players if they wanted a toggle. My comment there actually asked for it to be a different multiplier to create diminishing returns.

I stand by my "backbone" comment about your "backbone" comment. 

 

You see it in politics all the time.

 

"(Whoever) needs to (appeal to emotional desire to be seen as "brave) and agree with me!" 

 

"(Whoever) doesnt agree with me, so (theyre a coward/spineless etc)".

 

Its pathetic. I can just as easily throw out comments about how they need to "show some spine" and not listen to crybaby nerf herders, but that wouldnt be constructive would it.

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I stand by my "backbone" comment about your "backbone" comment. 

 

You see it in politics all the time.

 

"(Whoever) needs to (appeal to emotional desire to be seen as "brave) and agree with me!" 

 

"(Whoever) doesnt agree with me, so (theyre a coward/spineless etc)".

 

Its pathetic. I can just as easily throw out comments about how they need to "show some spine" and not listen to crybaby nerf herders, but that wouldnt be constructive would it.

You're projecting so hard on things nobody has said. DE is biting the bullet with something that is mathematically healthier for the game's powercreep problems. Nobody can argue that point. The OP here is using that math to be upset at the loss in power it creates. That is valid feedback, but it introduces the discussion: That is the entire point of changing the multiplier to base damage. This lines up with the way Vex Armor was handled years prior. We'll all have to adjust our builds, but it's not going to make the ability "bad" by any stretch, especially when there are two components to the ability and players are focused on the damage buff.

If you're looking to be constructive, start adding something to the discussion about Eclipse itself instead of your personal issue with my comments.

Edited February 25 by Voltage

[Waeleto]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

DE is biting the bullet with something that is mathematically healthier for the game's powercreep problems.

In what world to you think this is true ? because it's not

[Voltage]

14 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

In what world to you think this is true ? because it's not

Explain to me how a multiplicative damage bonus (that isn't consistent and also has many bugged interactions) is less contributing to the overarching problem of immense powercreep compared to an additive base damage multiplier that will not only be more consistent, but also create diminishing returns to prevent the player from exponentially trivializing the game.

Reeling in multipliers enables DE to create higher level content with appropriately scaling enemies comparative to our power output. Or would you prefer the direction we've been going in with mechanics like "Damage Attenuation" where the only meaningful damage multiplier is the framerate (among other things ).

It happened to Vex Armor.

It happened to Condition Overload.

It happened to Faction Damage Mods.

It happened to Maiming Strike.

It happened to Blood Rush.

It happened to Magus Lockdown.

It happened to so much more.

It's been Eclipse's turn for a long time now.

Edited February 25 by Voltage

[Hexerin]

4 hours ago, Monolake said:

People dont realize it will be the best helmint 😄

It's becoming the only defensive helmint for 90% DR toggleable to damage buff that actually works everywhere, unlike now.

Eclipse via Helminth is only 75% DR, hard capped.

[Waeleto]

39 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It happened to Vex Armor.

And since it happened people have been calling for chroma rework or subsuming eclipse/roar over his vex armor, this change will throw mirage to the rework bile 

[PainTako]

43 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Reeling in multipliers enables DE to create higher level content with appropriately scaling enemies comparative to our power output. Or would you prefer the direction we've been going in with mechanics like "Damage Attenuation" where the only meaningful damage multiplier is the framerate (among other things ).

We both know for years now players have been able to easily do level cap content, if you have forgotten a clan you were in required people to rank up to do runs with 4 players where enemies reached levels in the thousands. Also on the topic of damage attenuation even since they introduced it iirc back when they added liches, they have continued adding power creep. It also took them quite a while to "fix" archon attenuation, after all it was found pretty quickly how to nearly one shot them.

DE will never be able to make hard content when we have shield gating abuse, mesmer skin, iron skin/warding halo, invisibility, and countless other problems of balance. DE isn't going to fix balance, and honestly I think they've had far too long to show they can. Their latest solution was a dps cap this time. And while you could drop your fps to single digits to more or less avoid it, I doubt it was intentional and I doubt DE won't be looking into fixing it for their next boss adjacent foe they want to add that should be a "challenge". And obviously this also includes immunity to abilities, oh and will no longer blind to invisible players because Octavia could cheese the murmur boss with little effort.

Warframe has, and will only ever be hard if you choose not to abuse blatantly op mechanics. And honestly, at this point the only reason I think they do this stuff is for pubs. So "newer" players feel like they're contributing since the boss isn't dead by the time it spawns in.

Edited February 25 by PainTako

[Politically_Correct_Name]

Hopefully they hear us load and clear, we actually play the game and know how bad of a change this will be to the damage muliplier of eclipse.  As far as the damage reduction goes, I highly doubt anyone will subsume this onto a frame for a damage reduction ability, take it completely off the helminth version for all I care but dont completely gut the damage buff eclipse is.  Im seriously concerned for Eidolon hunting builds the most because we dont get the benefit of galvanized mods, most gun arcanes ect and I think those are taken into account for the balance of this insane proposed nerf to Eclipse. 

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Monolake said:

It's becoming the only defensive helmint for 90% DR toggleable to damage buff that actually works everywhere, unlike now.

Doesn't work with toxin damage afaik. And who said the helminth is being buffed from 75% to 90%?