Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Captain_Dark21]

6 minutes ago, vylexes said:

Look I can understand why you are nerfing helmith eclipse, It is defiantly strong on some builds. But come on this is way beyond unreasonable change, If in fact this ability needed to be nerfed at all I could understand going down to 100% and then working back a little bit at a time but going whole hog here with a drop so drastic to 30% is just not a great idea. 

Not only does working backways feel better for players that don't get stuck with having to change with a bad number that may stay for months on end, But as well as players having to completely rebuild frames at cost to them and no compensation at all.

Honestly this feels like a smack in the face, I don't like to use this phrase too often because most changes DE has made in the past has been on the boarder but over all good for the health of the game but not this one.

Right this is awesome!!! I think they have two options here 1 they can make eclipse apply to the squad without the augment or 2 they can make it buff abilities as well. I think option 1 is the best route here on that 

[Seras.]

Just now, Captain_Dark21 said:

Right this is awesome!!! I think they have two options here 1 they can make eclipse apply to the squad without the augment or 2 they can make it buff abilities as well. I think option 1 is the best route here on that 

Any change like that just means you are making a worse roar. This makes absolutely no sense to heavily nerf an ability just to turn it into a slightly altered version of another.

Even if they did function similarly, people would still choose roar due to the longer duration and better multiplier due to it being faction damage and thus double dipping on multiple different things AND working on abilities. Eclipse's entire purpose was an alternative to roar as a selfish but stronger weapons buff that required an augment just to not even be as easy to use as roar. 

[1thurts]

OMG seriously it feels no one in DE knows math. 200% constantly on Mirage is good but a bit on the overpower side, while 30% on subsume is way too low.

I'd rather it's 350% base damage buff instead. Or if it has to be multiplicity, make it 150%/75% maybe.

Edited February 28 by 1thurts

[PrimedLaundrySauce]

3 hours ago, Halo said:

Allow me to shorten the entire idea of wanting to change Eclipse, make it more accessible for people to swap between buffs, and also simultaneously try to change how it acts, and now with the final conclusion based off what Reb has stated in the Dev Short today:



"We're nerfing the Helminth version of Eclipse... AGAIN, but also making it a toggle"



Yeah, that's the short version of what's going to happen. 

Someone at DE really hates Eidolons or people having fun. Roar is actually going to be overall better now, and there will never be any math to say otherwise if this comes to fruition after Dante Unbound comes out. There will be no place for Eclipse if they nerf it to some percentage that is ON PAR (technically worse overall) with Roar, because Roar will just be flat-out BETTER. It works on yourself, AND YOUR TEAMMATES. 

Leave Eclipse's final percentage from the helminth alone at 150%. Bad enough you already nerfed it from it's original 200% when it first released, but if you actually go through with ruining it, and making it obsolete, then good job in killing an ability people actually liked using. 

I might not be a die-hard Eidolon Hunter like some people are, but this just seems targeted. I only really use it for PT also, so I also feel like I'm in this group of people whom you're just trying to make life different, or in this case worse. 

30%, you got to actually be ----ing joking. 

Actually upsetting. 

Edit: Figured out the little scheme going on here. The second Roar tops Eclipse, you're just going to nerf it also. Thanks, now we all know.

not to mention how thisll also effect PT, where roars value is diminished a lot since you should be using corpus bane mods in PT. I thought the original change to eclipse was to target arbitrations, PT, and eidolons, but I guess its more so to target eidolons and pt even though eidolons already have it bad enough now with arcane dissolution and not being able to crit lures.

[KitMeHarder]

7 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%.

Thank you for listening. But 30% for the subsume would mean there's basically no reason to use it over Roar from a damage perspective, as Roar would just be significantly better (it double dips procs, works on all abilities, is a teamwide buff, etc...). At the bare minimum give the subsume the same proportional reduction Roar got (50%->30%), so that'd make subsume Eclipse 120%.

120% is an agreeable compromise IMO.

Thanks again.

[KhaosChaser]

7 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

Neat! This is actually amazing! I got all sad for no reason when the change was announced but since you guys are working it out, im feeling relieved, :D 

[Halo]

1 hour ago, PrimedLaundrySauce said:

not to mention how thisll also effect PT, where roars value is diminished a lot since you should be using corpus bane mods in PT. I thought the original change to eclipse was to target arbitrations, PT, and eidolons, but I guess its more so to target eidolons and pt even though eidolons already have it bad enough now with arcane dissolution and not being able to crit lures.

They themselves created a problem that did not need fixing. 

Eclipse being turned into a toggle alone was the ONLY THING THEY NEEDED TO DO, AS DUE TO THE INCONSISTENCIES WITH IT WORKING IN LIGHTING IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

NOTHING ELSE ABOUT IT NEEDED TO BE TOUCHED.

But no, they had to go and mess with the code, test whether "No Redemption" nerfing it was good, thought it was good, us all saying it was bad, finally reverting the calculation for it, but instead of "No Redemption" nerfing it, they decide to "We'll Leave You In An Unrecoverable State" nerf, which is only going to increase the amount of people use Roar. 

Someone in the office really wanted to nerf the ability to the ground for the helminth system. 

Hell, I wouldn't put it past whomever this person is to wanting to nerf ALL OF THE STRENGTH HELMINTH abilities, because the second this is done to Eclipse, Roar is next on the hit-list. 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't even use it now. PT runs mostly for me will be impacted, which now I'll hate. Eidolons also being hit was just to insult the players who actually love fighting them. 

All of this, and to throw it down a hole, bury it alive, and only leave a straw for it to breathe, allowing Eclipse to only have a meager 30%. Makes me laugh now... What Initially released as 200%, was then moved to a satisfactory 150% which the community was fine with, and now it's going down to 30%.

Actually appalling. 

This is the worst thing we've seen in the case of nerfing since Chroma's Vex Armor. 

Edited February 28 by Halo
Clarification

[Morendiz]

RIP Mirage helminth
GZ on destroying every eidolon & profit taker build out there.

Will be a while until a new world record time will be set for PT ^^

No point in even trying now.

 

If your main goal is to lessen the things to do for veteran players for fun, job well done.

[Captain_Dark21]

39 minutes ago, Halo said:

They themselves created a problem that did not need fixing. 

Eclipse being turned into a toggle alone was the ONLY THING THEY NEEDED TO DO, AS DUE TO THE INCONSISTENCIES WITH IT WORKING IN LIGHTING IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

NOTHING ELSE ABOUT IT NEEDED TO BE TOUCHED.

But no, they had to go and mess with the code, test whether "No Redemption" nerfing it was good, thought it was good, us all saying it was bad, finally reverting the calculation for it, but instead of "No Redemption" nerfing it, they decide to "We'll Leave You In An Unrecoverable State" nerf, which is only going to increase the amount of people use Roar. 

Someone in the office really wanted to nerf the ability to the ground for the helminth system. 

Hell, I wouldn't put it past whomever this person is to wanting to nerf ALL OF THE STRENGTH HELMINTH abilities, because the second this is done to Eclipse, Roar is next on the hit-list. 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't even use it now. PT runs mostly for me will be impacted, which now I'll hate. Eidolons also being hit was just to insult the players who actually love fighting them. 

All of this, and to throw it down a hole, bury it alive, and only leave a straw for it to breathe, allowing Eclipse to only have a meager 30%. Makes me laugh now... What Initially released as 200%, was then moved to a satisfactory 150% which the community was fine with, and now it's going down to 30%.

Actually appalling. 

This is the worst thing we've seen in the case of nerfing since Chroma's Vex Armor. 

Best thing is they said they wouldn't be nerfing Eclipse for her but only the helminth. Then they turned around and nerfed it for her and the helminth only to retract it back for Mirage only lol. My biggest issue with DE is they make a lot of false promises like stick to what you said originally and leave it that way.

[TheTundraTerror]

Since people haven't said much about it, let me add that the DR portion of Eclipse is... kinda not worth using considering Shieldgating isn't all that hard.

[Refreshee]

46 minutes ago, Halo said:

They themselves created a problem that did not need fixing. 

Eclipse being turned into a toggle alone was the ONLY THING THEY NEEDED TO DO, AS DUE TO THE INCONSISTENCIES WITH IT WORKING IN LIGHTING IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

NOTHING ELSE ABOUT IT NEEDED TO BE TOUCHED.

But no, they had to go and mess with the code, test whether "No Redemption" nerfing it was good, thought it was good, us all saying it was bad, finally reverting the calculation for it, but instead of "No Redemption" nerfing it, they decide to "We'll Leave You In An Unrecoverable State" nerf, which is only going to increase the amount of people use Roar. 

Someone in the office really wanted to nerf the ability to the ground for the helminth system. 

Hell, I wouldn't put it past whomever this person is to wanting to nerf ALL OF THE STRENGTH HELMINTH abilities, because the second this is done to Eclipse, Roar is next on the hit-list. 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't even use it now. PT runs mostly for me will be impacted, which now I'll hate. Eidolons also being hit was just to insult the players who actually love fighting them. 

All of this, and to throw it down a hole, bury it alive, and only leave a straw for it to breathe, allowing Eclipse to only have a meager 30%. Makes me laugh now... What Initially released as 200%, was then moved to a satisfactory 150% which the community was fine with, and now it's going down to 30%.

Actually appalling. 

This is the worst thing we've seen in the case of nerfing since Chroma's Vex Armor. 

I just do not understand how an 85% nerf was what they came to.  Were people only getting 15% of the buff on average?  Surely they have the data on what the usual number was, right?  Why did they not balance it to match the average, so that on average, the performance was the same?  Why does it have to be a strict downgrade over what was available before?  Instead of 30%, it should have been either 100% or 120%.  Period.

Edited February 28 by Refreshee

[Halo]

11 minutes ago, Captain_Dark21 said:

Best thing is they said they wouldn't be nerfing Eclipse for her but only the helminth. Then they turned around and nerfed it for her and the helminth only to retract it back for Mirage only lol. My biggest issue with DE is they make a lot of false promises like stick to what you said originally and leave it that way.

I 100% agree. 

They initially were only touching it to fix how it would proc: either by lighting or other means. 

They fully decided on a toggle, which we all love, but just HAAAAAAAD to include "yeah, we're nerfing it for the helminth, too bad, so sad." 

Like, UGH

[Seras.]

5 minutes ago, Refreshee said:

I just do not understand how an 85% nerf was what they came to.  Were people only getting 15% of the buff on average?  Surely they have the data on what the usual number was, right?  Why did they not balance it to match the average, so that on average, the performance was the same?  Why does it have to be a strict downgrade over what was available before?  Instead of 30%, it should have been either 100% or 120%.  Period.

It's also worth remembering that even if we do average the light levels of where people are at in missions, most people who are subsuming eclipse onto a frame were doing so with a specific place in mind too. Both fortuna and plains of eidolons gave a huge % light level meaning we were getting around 130-140 of that 150% subsume just about everywhere we stood. It was simply just a really really strong buff and thats what we wanted.

Even with how strong it was in those scenarios there were still other subsumes that competed like in archon hunts where xatas whisper with phenmor is still popular or just simply roar to give allies more damage. If it was competitive with other subsumes at 100+% then that just won't be true if it's 30%

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Just an FYI, there aren't a lot of arguments in here that can be taken as serious feedback given how none of them are taking a lot of the variables into account.

If you want to present proper constructive criticism of this, you may want to start taking how the power currently inconsistently changes between damage multiplier and damage dodging into account. Because right now almost everyone's post is acting like you're running around with a damage multiplier 100% of the time, and given how even the devs explained the light-source mechanic is inconsistent at best, that wouldn't be possible.

If this is changed to a Toggle, it will be a consistent figure, which will likely make the proposed 30% seem much better than you're thinking it will. I'm not saying 30% is good or bad, I'm saying a lot of posts are trying to argue against this with math, without actually doing any math.

Edited February 28 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[Aerikx]

4 hours ago, Sinner said:

The vast majority of players are using eclipse for the damage buff even when they are looking to health tank because everyone knows that killing enemies is better than trying to tank their attacks.

Well I'm sorry that the devs obviously see the ability as a hybrid ability and never intended it to be used for what the players are using it for. 

Reminds me of Self-Damage Trinity link back in the day. 

At this point, people are just mad that the ability is a hybrid and like a hybrid it's being balanced as a hybrid. 

Person A: "A fork is meant for eating." 

Person B: "Well I used the fork to comb my hair. So it should be used to comb hair." 

Person A: "That's fine and all but forks were designed to be a tool for eating food." 

Person B: "No! Forks are for combing hair! No one in my house uses them for eating!" 

Person A: "🤷🏾"

[Halo]

9 minutes ago, Refreshee said:

I just do not understand how an 85% nerf was what they came to.  Were people only getting 15% of the buff on average?  Surely they have the data on what the usual number was, right?  Why did they not balance it to match the average, so that on average, the performance was the same?  Why does it have to be a strict downgrade over what was available before?  Instead of 30%, it should have been either 100% or 120%.  Period.

The acquisition of the right buff people wanted was what was being messed with, as a lot of areas in maps can be misconstrued as shadows, thus only allowing the evasion buff, meanwhile you might want the damage buff. 

And DE's notorious for major downgrading things that aren't in need of fixing. Personally, should not be changed from 150%, it should stay how it is, but that's just me, and at this point, it's too late. 

They probably won't listen to us in regards to this heavy of a nerf also. 30% is impossible to use and will make it an obsolete helminth choice, forever. A good middle ground, as you even say, would be a smooth 100% or at least 125%. God willing, they will somehow only go for 60% or 75%, something stupidly low for no reason...

[Halo]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

If this is changes to a Toggle, it will be a consistent figure, which will likely make the proposed 30% seem much better than you're thinking it will. I'm not saying 30% is good or bad, I'm saying a lot of posts are trying to argue against this with math, without actually doing any math.

Allow me to assist then. 

Would you rather the following: 

1. A damage buff thats solely for you and does not scale with bane mods (This proposed helminth Eclipse)

or

2. A damage buff that can be for you and your entire team as well as scaling with bane mods (The Roar helminth we already have)

The clear winner is the second option, which is what Roar already provides. DE going forward with the Eclipse nerf solidifies that the ability will be dead on arrival, and people will only use it for the DR Evasion in specific situations. 

Argument for argument sake is one thing. We already have the numbers as Rebecca has already stated "bringing eclipse down to match roar", which is a proposed 30%, is actually abysmal, and is not on par at all. Roar as is will be stronger than this hard nerf. 

We can only hope they listen to us, and do not drop it to this low of a percentage. 

Edited February 28 by Halo
Clarification

[Piggy_osu]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

If this is changed to a Toggle, it will be a consistent figure, which will likely make the proposed 30% seem much better than you're thinking it will. I'm not saying 30% is good or bad, I'm saying a lot of posts are trying to argue against this with math, without actually doing any math.

The math has already been done. tl;dr with 30% (consistent with roar), eclipse is worse off in every way when it comes to damage. Sure you have the dr but that's irrelevant here given how most eclipse subsumes are used for raw damage.

 

[Seras.]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Just an FYI, there aren't a lot of arguments in here that can be taken as serious feedback given how none of them are taking a lot of the variables into account.

If you want to present proper constructive criticism of this, you may want to start taking how the power currently inconsistently changes between damage multiplier and damage dodging into account. Because right now almost everyone's post is acting like you're running around with a damage multiplier 100% of the time, and given how even the devs explained the light-source mechanic is inconsistent at best, that wouldn't be possible.

If this is changed to a Toggle, it will be a consistent figure, which will likely make the proposed 30% seem much better than you're thinking it will. I'm not saying 30% is good or bad, I'm saying a lot of posts are trying to argue against this with math, without actually doing any math.

Ok so let's discuss it that way then. A lot of people who are subsuming eclipse know exactly what tilesets or areas they are going to be in to get the buffs they are looking for. For fortuna and plains, this buff was very high, like 90+% of the listed buff so around 130% at the worst. So for PT and eidolons we are losing a ton of damage unless this is buffed to like 120%.

For the people who were using it outside of places they know have good lighting, it's still primarily focusing on the damage buff which did fluctuate a lot but lighting in this game is very wild. You would go from DR to damage by walking down a lit hallway.

If you want to average the damage buff around 0% when you don't have it and 150% when you have the max, then maybe it does average to 30% but that's not being honest since we aren't putting any weight whatsoever to where people are choosing to be when they use the subsume. If you also weight it by playtime with the subsume on the build then we should be weighing it near 120% since there are a lot of people using it for eidolons and PT and archon hunts constantly which are all very well lit.

Either way in the end this still comes down to the issue of if this subsume is even worth using in its proposed state and that has been graphed for us showing us that roar is always better on most weapons or at worst literally equal to it. So we can easily definitively say 30% is wildly WAY too low to even consider. 

[KesslerCOIL]

Please considering increasing the buff from 30% to at least 75%, due to the nature of Roar it gives a drastically bigger buff than Eclipse and Eclipse only affects weapons and weapon like abilities.  
Nourish gives +75% additive viral damage, but also has all the other benefits that come with it like increased energy, so for Eclipse to be competitive with Roar and Nourish it either needs to give a more comparable damage buff(75% at LEAST) or give the damage AND damage reduction at the same time(I doubt you'd do this ever)

[(PSN)MYKK678]

32 minutes ago, Piggy_osu said:

The math has already been done. tl;dr with 30% (consistent with roar), eclipse is worse off in every way when it comes to damage. Sure you have the dr but that's irrelevant here given how most eclipse subsumes are used for raw damage.

 

If that's the case why isn't anyone asking to remove the DR part from the Helminth version, have it be just a tap power, and exchange it for what's being asked for?

Quiver is clearly an example of a power being split a possibility, so if you want to present an argument to the Devs as "apples vs apples" then you need to balance the scales. Whether an individual would/wouldn't use the DR toggle is irrelevant, it's still part of the power right now and adds something Roar doesn't have.

[Seras.]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

If that's the case why isn't anyone asking to remove the DR part from the Helminth version, have it be just a tap power, and exchange it for what's being asked for?

Quiver is clearly an example of a power being split a possibility, so if you want to present an argument to the Devs as "apples vs apples" then you need to balance the scales. Whether an individual would/wouldn't use the DR toggle is irrelevant, it's still part of the power right now and adds something Roar doesn't have.

ME ILL ASK FOR IT. SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID THE DR IS IRRELEVANT.

Anyone who thinks eclipse would be a good DR ability then please look at null star or gloom. Both of them are much better for health tanking. 

 

We could do something like chromas 2 where chroma himself can change the element while subsumers can only preselect their element with an emissive color. 

Edited February 28 by Sinner

[Numerounius]

44 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

If you want to present proper constructive criticism of this, you may want to start taking how the power currently inconsistently changes between damage multiplier and damage dodging into account. Because right now almost everyone's post is acting like you're running around with a damage multiplier 100% of the time, and given how even the devs explained the light-source mechanic is inconsistent at best, that wouldn't be possible.

The devs also explained how you can have 100% uptime for both light and dark.

They showed that despite sitting in a tent on the plains completely sheltered you were still getting full buff. And in the labs it was completely dark.

Even the dev response here is comparing it to Roar rather than to the major inconsistency that it has right now.

 

You don't need to look at it from from the perspective of how you always had to roll the dice for Eclipse buffs as part for providing constructive criticism. It is getting changed period.

[Skoomaseller]

good, but I think the nerf to Helminth Eclipse is a bit too much. 

I understand we agreed that should it be changed to a toggle, helminth would require a nerf. I agreed, but I still think you guys hit it a bit too hard. 

Edited February 28 by Skoomaseller

[Piggy_osu]

Also many people saying that base eclipse to helminth's 200% -> 30% is not "consistent" with roar's 50% -> 30%, please keep in mind that base abilities are balanced in the context of one specific frame, while helminth abilities are balanced around how it it would be on every single frame. With that said, making eclipse number scale the same amount as roar is just not it.

3 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

If that's the case why isn't anyone asking to remove the DR part from the Helminth version, have it be just a tap power, and exchange it for what's being asked for?

Quiver is clearly an example of a power being split a possibility, so if you want to present an argument to the Devs as "apples vs apples" then you need to balance the scales. Whether an individual would/wouldn't use the DR toggle is irrelevant, it's still part of the power right now and adds something Roar doesn't have.

The following is true for me regarding eclipse:

• For at least me as a player, I have never used eclipse as a damage reduction subsume. It's way too flaky to be trustworthy and there are better candidates. Gloom? Null star? Quiver? I honestly would not have complained if DE literally just removed the DR from the helminth version. At least with other abilities I know when I died it's because I #*!%ed up instead of "oh this patch of shadows just decided to be bright". And even with that said, 50% is not a really significant amount to be used as a DR ability. Sure it's multiplicative to armor and other damage reduction abilities, but even post fix it's not good (enough) as is.
• As it is right now, every time I use eclipse, I know the tileset I go in will have ample lighting to keep my buff at a reasonable level. Personally, I don't even take it into archon hunts because the seemingly bright outdoor area sometimes makes me take less damage instead of doing more.

After the fix, the issue being addressed is the inconsistency brought by the "inconsistent lighting levels". Honestly that's amazing, but the trade-off being that eclipse is now completely gutted as a damage ability. You can argue that it's now usable as a "versatile 'pick between doing a bit more damage or taking a bit less damage whenever' ability", but the reality is that not many frames need both damage buff and dr, and that's not even considering it's not really a significant amount of either. If that's the goal of the eclipse rework. then so be it.

To put more salt on the wound, dot damage (viral/slash, viral/heat, heat inherit etc.) currently dominates the damage meta. Roar literally scales that number quadratically while eclipse is just a flat line. Yes, you can remedy that with a bane mod but the reality is, with the same mod setup and the current numbers, roar will always be a better ability than eclipse. Earlier I posted a graph about how damage multiplier will scale with ability strength for each ability, I will make it publicly available HERE in case any of you guys want to play around with numbers to see how roar and eclipse compare. (and also in case my math is #*!%ed up and need to be corrected).

Say you really wanted eclipse to be consistent with roar. If eclipse is buffed to 50% multi @100% astrength, it will be better than roar (by at most like 20%) with the same setup until 301% astrength where roar will outscale eclipse. You want to encourage build variety? there you go. it's a single person damage buff that's similar to roar amount but works also with non-dot weapons.