Disappointing To See That PC-Console Spawn Rate Discrepancy Won't Truly Be Addressed

[Arbitrary]

Timestamped Youtube link from the devstream for context. For those that don't know, consoles (even the latest gen ones) have noticeably reduced spawn rates as compared to PC.

The entire question was essentially dodged, with a symptom (reactant spawn rate) potentially being addressed, but not the issue at large.

[16Bitman]

Much better than making sure all platforms have the same spawnrates and reducing PC ones.

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, Arbitrary said:

The entire question was essentially dodged, with a symptom (reactant spawn rate) potentially being addressed, but not the issue at large.

They can't do anything about it. Hardware limitations are hardward limitations.

[Arbitrary]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

They can't do anything about it. Hardware limitations are hardward limitations.

Latest gen consoles are comparable to a pretty decent PC. I understand that the weaker consoles like Switch won't be able to match PC, but current gen consoles shouldn't also be so throttled.

[JimothyStevens]

I agree but I think that normalizing reactant spawn across mission types as a response to this question is an excellent idea. Not sure what they could do with regards to the spawn rate on lower end hardware. It's kinda a rabbit out of the hat moment. Only way to prevent it would be to not release on low spec stuff.

[Voltage]

I think that's kinda the answer we all knew we would hear someday. Cross-play surfaced the question, but the "problem" has been there the whole time.

[Hexerin]

43 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

They can't do anything about it. Hardware limitations are hardward limitations.

They very much can do something about it, it would just require them to actually put in the dev time to update the matchmaker with some additional functionality. Specifically, add a matchmaking toggle that allows the individual player to decide for themselves about the following:

While active, those on proper hardware (PC, current gen console, etc) would be prevented from being matched as client to a host that is on inferior/outdated hardware (Switch, past-gen console, mobile, etc). Proper hardware would only match as client to a host on proper hardware.

For obvious reasons, this toggle would have no effect on inferior/outdated hardware. They'd continue to be matched as client to any host, as they already do.

[Stormandreas]

There's way more to it than just "fix it"... that's why... it's not that it's NOT being addressed, it's that it's not being fixed RIGHT NOW because they kinda don't have a final solution.

10 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

They very much can do something about it, it would just require them to actually put in the dev time to update the matchmaker with some additional functionality. Specifically, add a matchmaking toggle that allows the individual player to decide for themselves about the following:

While active, those on proper hardware (PC, current gen console, etc) would be prevented from being matched as client to a host that is on inferior/outdated hardware (Switch, past-gen console, mobile, etc). Proper hardware would only match as client to a host on proper hardware.

For obvious reasons, this toggle would have no effect on inferior/outdated hardware. They'd continue to be matched as client to any host, as they already do.

This exists...

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

They very much can do something about it, it would just require them to actually put in the dev time to update the matchmaker with some additional functionality. Specifically, add a matchmaking toggle that allows the individual player to decide for themselves about the following:

While active, those on proper hardware (PC, current gen console, etc) would be prevented from being matched as client to a host that is on inferior/outdated hardware (Switch, past-gen console, mobile, etc). Proper hardware would only match as client to a host on proper hardware.

For obvious reasons, this toggle would have no effect on inferior/outdated hardware. They'd continue to be matched as client to any host, as they already do.

I was going to say something along these lines.  Thank you for beating me to it.  DE needs to iterate upon crossplay further.  I should be able to specify that I only want to play with a PC host.  If that has to be me, great!  That's fantastic.

 

And yes, we can turn off crossplay to prevent running into these issues, but then we also no longer run into other players.  You only match with people who also have crossplay off, which is basically no one.  That's not a good enough solution.

 

DE, please give us more nuanced options for crossplay.  Let us prefer/require PC hosts.  Let us force hosting ourselves.  Let us match with other PC players who have crossplay on while still having crossplay off ourselves if such a thing is possible.

[Hexerin]

40 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

This exists...

It literally doesn't.

[UnstarPrime]

Question: does this issue exist when a PC player on a potato hosts a PC player on a super-rig?

[Stormandreas]

23 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It literally doesn't.

Yes. It does.

PC players can tell the game they are on a desktop, laptop or allow the game to autodetect it. Alongside this, the game already has a feature that checks your systems specs to determine who would be the most suitable host. This also happens to Consoles too.

However, when making a pre-made squad, this system does not activate. That said, the chances are that Cross-play broke this system somewhat. However, we can't really know without DE saying so or some extensive, extremely painful testing.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

They can't do anything about it. Hardware limitations are hardward limitations.

this. it's also important to take into account this game is on mobile now as well: you can't have both high spawn rates AND top-tier performance across all platforms reliably, it just isn't feasible at the moment.

maybe in a few years, if hardware gets better, but I still think that's being dangerously optimistic, bordering on naïve. 

Edited March 23 by (PSN)robotwars7

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Yes. It does.

PC players can tell the game they are on a desktop, laptop or allow the game to autodetect it. Alongside this, the game already has a feature that checks your systems specs to determine who would be the most suitable host. This also happens to Consoles too.

However, when making a pre-made squad, this system does not activate. That said, the chances are that Cross-play broke this system somewhat. However, we can't really know without DE saying so or some extensive, extremely painful testing.

That has literally nothing to do with what I said.

[Xzorn]

The solution is easy.

Less but more meaningful enemies.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

The solution is easy.

Less but more meaningful enemies.

For real. No matter what platform you're on, there's always going to be a bottleneck somewhere along the chain that sets a max number of entities. Whether it's bandwidth or clock rates or memory, there's a limit. There's always a limit. And the stronger players get powercrept, the closer we get to surpassing that limit. This isn't even a crossplay issue: we've already seen this with Railjack which has low spawns even if you're a PC host. The mode's lower spawns and beefier enemies happen no matter what you play the game on because it physically can't maintain the kind of spawn rates we expect in "regular" missions. Crossplay hosting issues are just a more obvious continuation of this that can't be as easily ignored.

[VibingCat]

10 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

They can't do anything about it. Hardware limitations are hardward limitations.

One thing they could do is delete the part of the code that forces a host migration for a pre-made squad starting a mission, allowing console players to host. I've seen many bad ideas, but this one excels at being the worst.

[VibingCat]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The solution is easy.

Less but more meaningful enemies.

Not really, sorry. Doing so would make it challenging to maintain stacks of galvanized mods and arcanes, as well as to build up melee combo count. Overall, it would likely result in a nerf to our potential in most cases.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

11 hours ago, Arbitrary said:

Timestamped Youtube link from the devstream for context. For those that don't know, consoles (even the latest gen ones) have noticeably reduced spawn rates as compared to PC.

The entire question was essentially dodged, with a symptom (reactant spawn rate) potentially being addressed, but not the issue at large.

Good. Then i know i can abandon all games that dont have a PC host if i plan on doing serious runs.

[SneakyErvin]

This really only matters for 3 game modes, survival, alchemy and disruption. For everything else the rate just doesnt matter, and is mostly beneficial at a lower density, since defense ends quicker etc. so you get to the rotational rewards faster.

[Arbitrary]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

This really only matters for 3 game modes, survival, alchemy and disruption. For everything else the rate just doesnt matter, and is mostly beneficial at a lower density, since defense ends quicker etc. so you get to the rotational rewards faster.

Don't know how to break this to you, but people generally don't care about defense reward rotations so much as the "rewards" from killing enemies. If you are playing defense, you  care either about the affinity gain (playing Hydron in 2024 is a bit strange though) or enemy drops (Arbitrations). Rotation rewards are just a side bonus.
The obvious odd time out is when you don't actually want to be playing defense (Sorties/Archon Hunts).

The modes that suffer the most are popular ones, so saying that unpopular modes don't see as much of an issue isn't particularly relevant.

[sunderthefirmament]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

This really only matters for 3 game modes, survival, alchemy and disruption. For everything else the rate just doesnt matter, and is mostly beneficial at a lower density, since defense ends quicker etc. so you get to the rotational rewards faster.

This is a bit too narrow. 
 

Affinity and enemy drops are also affected. So if you’re trying to rank up something in ESO, a swirly console host logo is an absolute buzzkill. Or if you’re a newer player farming resources (or a veteran farming the latest content island’s resources), console hosts mean you’re in for a longer grind. 

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Not really, sorry. Doing so would make it challenging to maintain stacks of galvanized mods and arcanes, as well as to build up melee combo count. Overall, it would likely result in a nerf to our potential in most cases.

 

I mean, it's not my fault they changed and built the game on a trend. Path of Exile made the same mistake.

Both games lost all control over energy economy, self-sustain, positioning, AoE or even a reason to aim. You're talking about simple numerical tweaks. They can't make enemies with decent AI because there's too many. The downsides massively outweigh the upsides, if there even are any outside that power fantasy trip. Even so I've seen some games which manage to mix both by using simplistic AI for fodder and better designed enemies as the main focus thought still in less numbers.

Why game eat up so much of my CPU and GPU? Hmmm.. maybe this?

Spoiler

[VibingCat]

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I mean, it's not my fault they changed and built the game on a trend. Path of Exile made the same mistake.

Both games lost all control over energy economy, self-sustain, positioning, AoE or even a reason to aim. You're talking about simple numerical tweaks. They can't make enemies with decent AI because there's too many. The downsides massively outweigh the upsides, if there even are any outside that power fantasy trip. Even so I've seen some games which manage to mix both by using simplistic AI for fodder and better designed enemies as the main focus thought still in less numbers.

Why game eat up so much of my CPU and GPU? Hmmm.. maybe this?

  Hide contents

Only a revolution could address all these problems simultaneously, but then it wouldn't be called Warframe anymore. However, to be fair, Duviri and the upcoming Netracells 2.0 might be a step in the right direction. They introduce gear randomness to reduce our power, which challenges us with fewer enemies and makes the game feel less overwhelming. Additionally, we're provided with weaker weapons on average, encouraging better aim, while the lower enemy density results in less energy and ammo pickups. 

[Waeleto]

6 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Good. Then i know i can abandon all games that dont have a PC host if i plan on doing serious runs.

That's what i have been doing since october 2022