i feel like dante is too good ?

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Ah, right.

I haven't built Dante myself yet, but I got him in Duviri, and found he couldn't support Excavators or Defense Targets. I forget you don't get a companion in Duviri.

It worked in a sortie where we had a defense operative. 

You cant see the overguard in the hud , but you can see the coating of light blue when you aim at them.

Maybe it doesn't work on static objectives ?

[Zahnrad]

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Maybe it doesn't work on static objectives ?

Probably.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-01 at 6:43 AM, PublikDomain said:

Ok, and what are those three opinions?

1. Powercreep should be avoided.
2. Powercreep has no impact.
3. I don't know.

So where do you think the "powercreep is good" opinion is represented?

And if you don't like that survey you can look at the others, which are far more clear-cut.

But you yourself proved in this very thread that the question aswell as the answers are vague. They ask about powercreep, you answered it under a misconception, since what you complain about is progression, not power creep specifically. And the way the question is formulated along with the answers, the "Powercreep has no impact" would be the "powercreep is good", since again, it has no negative impact. In reality the question should have been phrased "Is powercreep bad for WF?" with "Yes", "No", "Undecided" as answers. Preferably there should be two questions, "Is player powercreep bad for WF?" and "Is enemy powercreep bad for WF?" since it can take the shape both ways.

Just as the other following questions mostly vague with no real indication of which end represents a negative or not. a 5 on gear balance, does that mean. Does the person refer to balance between starter and endgame gear? Does he refer to gear balanced in comparison to the content it is obtained in? The co-op mission question is also the same. Does the person who answer refer to playing co-op in general or does he mean he values forced co-op activities like raids? Or does he simply value the option that co-op is there as a choice when help is needed? They are all so very very vague. I would for instance answer 1 on the co-op question and 5 on gear balance, since co-op I'd consider as being a question asked regarding forced group content like raids or similar and gear balance as a question regarding gear balanced accordingly to where it is obtained.

The whole survey was poorly worded overall.

20 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Pretty obvious you have no idea how the basics of statistics and surveys work.

For Warframe, about 1000 samples is all you need for most anything.

Do even basic research and you will see how far off base you really are...

Too funny.

In the real world yes you are correct. Since in the real world there are parameters they aim for. Here in a game as wide as WF it is a very small sample size, since it doesnt pinpoint certain age, experience or activity/occupation etc. It is really like a country sending out a random survey to X amount of people that are simply alive, making it end up with toddlers, senile seniors and everything in between.

For instance a person that answers the survey with very little time spent in the game may answer it completely different from one at a later stage, just as it would differentiate massively between what type of content a player tends to do, or even which frame they play and have most experience with. It isnt like a nation sending out a survey to people between age 35-50 asking about family life or their experience with a union, banks or similar. Or one that focuses on a specific occupation, like social workers, service people, bus drivers etc.

[Nekomian]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Maybe it doesn't work on static objectives ?

Sorta related but, they honestly made the defense objective healing and DR changes extremely confusing. I have to look at a table just to know if they're capped or not and at what value (since they're all wildly different), and some don't even work (mainly blood alter, because apparently the other magical frame cast abilities heal but a sacrificial alter does not for "lore reasons" / "flavor" or something weirdly specific). Ember's immolation also says "capped at 50%" in U27.4 patch notes despite the immolated radiance augment only giving 50% of DR (50% of max 90% the ability can have is 45%), which it cannot ever reach, and up until recently oddly enough scarab swarm was probably the best health restorative function since it can scale and had no cap (i.e. 200 dps per target, scalable with ability strength, across multiple enemies) even if it was rather annoying to use.

I'm all for balancing things where needed and understand that just sitting on top of an objective with protective dash invuln would be very broken (and boring), but making changes based on how each ability feels at the time is really confusing from a player perspective (and doesn't account for future buffs, changes, or new mechanics). They should just all have a cap like 200 HP/s, 200 Shield/s, no OG allowed rather than segment them so much that players need a reference guide on hand to know what works and what doesn't.

All that to say, nerfs and buffs are both valid given their context, but need to not be overtly complicated and need to be implemented with consideration in some cases where they're needed. We have too many confusing interactions in this game to know what is and isn't intended if it's not explicitly stated, and a lot of the time the "nerf" ends up just being a bug fix for an unintended interaction as well that they left unpatched for a prolonged time.

[[DE]Megan]

Hello! I'm popping my head in here to provide some dev insight related to this conversation. 

As Dante Unbound nears one full week since its launch, the team has been reading and collecting feedback in all areas, including Dante himself. 

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

We are currently happy with how favored Dante is and recognize that nerfs typically have a negative connotation. With that in mind, we are reviewing early stats with an open mind to ensure we don't leave room for disruptive or dominant play styles. Any tweaks done to Dante will be to ensure he is still performing strongly, just not disruptive or dominant. 

 

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hello! I'm popping my head in here to provide some dev insight related to this conversation. 

As Dante Unbound nears one full week since its launch, the team has been reading and collecting feedback in all areas, including Dante himself. 

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

We are currently happy with how favored Dante is and recognize that nerfs typically have a negative connotation. With that in mind, we are reviewing early stats with an open mind to ensure we don't leave room for disruptive or dominant play styles. Any tweaks done to Dante will be to ensure he is still performing strongly, just not disruptive or dominant. 

Thanks for writing this out for concerned players. It makes sense.

Maybe it's worth a dev workshop down the road with a list of things the team feels fits this criteria and asking for player input about it. That way more people understand at what point something is seen as disruptive (as I can think of quite a few things that enable automation or disruptive behavior far more than Dante).

The recent transparency regarding Mirage's Eclipse was great to see.

Cheers.

[TeaHands]

10 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

I guess Guardian Armor fell under Automates play? Cuz the duration got nerfed pretty quickly.

Either way I appreciate the communication with players

[--BIG--Doug-Desu]

53 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hello! I'm popping my head in here to provide some dev insight related to this conversation. 

As Dante Unbound nears one full week since its launch, the team has been reading and collecting feedback in all areas, including Dante himself. 

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

We are currently happy with how favored Dante is and recognize that nerfs typically have a negative connotation. With that in mind, we are reviewing early stats with an open mind to ensure we don't leave room for disruptive or dominant play styles. Any tweaks done to Dante will be to ensure he is still performing strongly, just not disruptive or dominant. 

 

Dante > Equinox

[Malziel]

Quite frankly, I think Dante should be the standard by which new frames are judged, going forward. So often we get frames with interesting ideas but poor performance. Sometimes this can be alleviated with the Helminth system (Gyre and Pillage, for example,) but having a frame that's just incredible right out of the box has been a shockingly rare experience. Perhaps the squad buffs he gives might be a bit on the high end, but I think the other support frames we have should be looked at instead, and raised to Dante's level. Every single friend I have who's come back for this update has been more then pleasantly surprised with how good Dante is, it would be a real shame to ruin that.

[Waeleto]

14 minutes ago, Malziel said:

Quite frankly, I think Dante should be the standard by which new frames are judged, going forward. So often we get frames with interesting ideas but poor performance. Sometimes this can be alleviated with the Helminth system (Gyre and Pillage, for example,) but having a frame that's just incredible right out of the box has been a shockingly rare experience. Perhaps the squad buffs he gives might be a bit on the high end, but I think the other support frames we have should be looked at instead, and raised to Dante's level. Every single friend I have who's come back for this update has been more then pleasantly surprised with how good Dante is, it would be a real shame to ruin that.

Agreed, Dante isn't the problem

The problem is releases such as dagath/qorvex who are very bland and never got the deserved buffs (i'm not saying they're bad) that would push them forward, like those 2 specifically don't feel like warframes released in 2023

I hope moving forward every warframe released is on the same standards as dante, especially we it comes to their method of tanking i hope we never get warframe whose tanking method is the same old shieldgating/pillage 

[NameLessFreak]

On 2024-03-29 at 7:45 PM, Hexerin said:

I really feel like DE should consider redesigning her. As she stands, it's effectively mandatory/required to use Pillage on her. She is both too squishy (has bottom-tier stats with no innate survivability) and can't effectively get through Grineer armor nor Corpus shields with how low her ability's base damage values are.

The only thing Gyre needs is a rapid fire weapon and she's pretty much a beast. Pillage is nice but it's not mandatory on her. Are you playing Gyre as a caster or something?

[UnstarPrime]

I pulled Dante out of the oven yesterday and damn if he isn't a certified killer right out of the box.  It only took a single Forma to finish his build* and he's out here wrecking stuff.  All that team overguard.  All that AoE killing.

I have yet to decide for myself whether I feel like he's too powerful, but there's no doubt about the fact that he's powerful.

And beyond that, I really enjoy the mechanic of casting small chains of spells to make even bigger spells.  It feels like it hits the sweet spot between Warframe and Magicka, where you have less functionality than Magicka but it's also more accessible and manageable and always feels great.

*Noctua will need more to finish, but it doesn't seem vital

[crazywolfpusher]

Some of the coolest skills animations, engaging gameplay, excels at damage and survivability. Is just the perfect caster frame.

I don't think that him being too good is a problem. Setting the bar this high might be for sure. I would be very disappointed if Jade end up not nearly as polished.

 

I'm still sad about Voruna kit animations. They are non-existent, can't get over it even though she is absurdly strong.. Sadly I was expecting something similar to Gyre or Styanax. Now looking at Dante make it worse for me.

 

 

 

[NameLessFreak]

On 2024-03-31 at 7:52 PM, CosoMalvadoNG said:

 

Not counting the fact that it has 7 abilities which you can use without any disadvantage, the warframe is so good that I could see 3-4 Dante in a squad frequently. Why? because it literally has almost everything. It does the work of 10 warframes alone.

 

You see 3-4 Dante in a squad because he's the new frame not because he's broken. 

[Waeleto]

29 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

I'm still sad about Voruna kit animations. They are non-existent, can't get over it even though she is absurdly strong.. Sadly I was expecting something similar to Gyre or Styanax. Now looking at Dante make it worse for me.

Ye she was supposed to release with Duviri, looking at her she DEFINITELY was unfinished 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

2 hours ago, TeaHands said:

I guess Guardian Armor fell under Automates play? Cuz the duration got nerfed pretty quickly.

Either way I appreciate the communication with players

It still 100% automates play in ESO.

A chroma just needs to press 3 once every round and he can afk the rest.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-03-28 at 7:27 AM, Waeleto said:

Same can be said about majority of augments which brings us to a whole different argument

Lets not open THAT can of worms.

[Askell91]

Complaining about a mage not using weapons. Erm.. what?

[KamuiHyuga]

2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hello! I'm popping my head in here to provide some dev insight related to this conversation. 

As Dante Unbound nears one full week since its launch, the team has been reading and collecting feedback in all areas, including Dante himself. 

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

We are currently happy with how favored Dante is and recognize that nerfs typically have a negative connotation. With that in mind, we are reviewing early stats with an open mind to ensure we don't leave room for disruptive or dominant play styles. Any tweaks done to Dante will be to ensure he is still performing strongly, just not disruptive or dominant. 

 

So here's something that I feel would make a lot of older frames feel better.  Let older abilities be able to refresh while already active!  Loki Invisibility, Zephyr Turbulence, even Rhino Roar.  The ability to refresh these would make the frames "feel" much better to play.  As it is, they just feel clunky having to wait out the ability timers while newer frames don't have to do that with their buffs/abilities.  Dante?  He can refresh his buffs no matter what.  Kullervo's 1?  Yup, he can refresh that at-will, he's not locked out of it until the timer ticks down.  Just letting me refresh stuff without needing to keep my eye glued to my UI would be great.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 28.3.2024 um 06:20 schrieb Xenevier:

As the title says i feel like dante on release is a little too strong. warframes tend to have their playstyles and use cases differ to a point where one frame isnt better than another because they all fill different roles, but dante seems to be too strong for that standard:

giving team wide overguards used to be specific to styanax's Interpid Stand augment, is now overshadowed by an ability in dante's base kit. styanax needed to use a very high amount of energy to spam his 4 and use a lot of energy to get to those high overguard numbers while dante doesnt need to do that and still gets to give it to everyone without the need of using a mod slot for it.

dante has a pure slash crit exalted weapon which can deal with high armored units easily from slash ignoring armor, this isnt anything new, we have had frames that did this such as kullervo with his 4, or styanax with his 4, both of which also had overguard to compensate for their survival issues(styanax cannot dodge much when in 4 animation, kullervo has 0 shields and cant shield gate without any) but dante gets to have more overguard, team wide version of it, and shields to shield gate incase he forgets to refresh his overguard...

the problem i have and i may be stretching it a bit here with his exalted weapon is that it can by itself carry dante's damage to the end game, meaning you have no need for a strong weapon, this how ever could also be said for styanax so there is that to argue for too.

dante's 4 also gives him equinox's 4 but in a smaller radius although much easier to stack it imo and again the problem isnt him having the same tools as other frames, i find the problem being in that he has a LOT of these tools in one frame. 

i just think if we're going to give him 40k overguard, at base he should have issues surviving without it, as do other frames who utalize overguard, or if we're to have him share it with others maybe there should be a condition instead of the press of a button? styanax does that but has to stay in his 4 and in higher tiers of content you usually get out damaged from the shields you generate with your augment from staying in the air and having limited movement while dante can have full control of his frame while generating those overguards.

now although he is a caster and will primarily rely on casting spells, having 25 cost abilities which can room clear with 2 casts seems low energy costs as well especially as a LARGE number of players use zenurik and that can eliminate his energy problems.

what are your thoughts? is he balanced around not having movement abilities or is he too strong? do you think warframe being a PvE game excuses if a frame is stronger than what is standard and in the bounds of the norm ? 

“little too strong” what???????????
What are you comparing Dante to?
I have all the warframes, weapons, the best mods and arcanes. and Dante is nothing special. and even bad!

and can you tell us about yourself? Is it about the perspective of a newcomer? Because I can't imagine that someone with a lot of experience and a leg4 account would spread such a falsehood...

[MortalMercenary]

On 2024-03-28 at 10:59 AM, Xenevier said:

i honestly didnt come here to start a parade for dante nerfs, i wanted to understand what justified him having a lot of very strong tools, and some people make good arguments like how an end game frame should be end game viable, but then again some people will default to say "who cares about balance its a PvE game anyway, there are no victim for a stronger option being added" 

yes i agree more options are always welcome, but to me it feels defeating when i build a kullervo wiht minmaxed build and 5 archon shards to see a dante walk into a room and be able to do the same work as me without that investment i put in

Mesa and saryn can already do this to every frame, Kullervo can do this back to Dante as well, I've done it already. 

Dante isn't some overly op frame just because he can give everyone overguard and can kill enemies given enough of them with slash. Styanax without the augment can provide better support than Dante with energy and shield regen since overguard only really is giving you a gate where as shields stack with adaptation and other forms of overall damage reduction.

[B3nDover]

This is absolutely one of the most disappointing moments I've had with this dev team in recent times. I really, really hoped that after the styanax kneejerk change to his 4 which disappointed a lot of people that you guys and gals learnt not to do this.

By this logic, any frame that is stronger than probably Excalibur should get "tweaked" to be a lil bit more mediocre, because oh boy, being strong is dangerous.

You have made a frame that looks great, plays amazingly with his entire kit, and is fairly easy to get. And now you are nerfing it because you gave people something they want. What did you expect? For people to NOT play him? Did you expect it to be a Dagath or Qorvex scenario, where their clunkiness prevents bigger swaths of people from investing time into them?

This is just prime kneejerk reaction to idiotic posts like the one that was started here. I guess we don't want people playing anything other than stuff like Saryn, Mesa, Wisp, Revenant I guess.

Edited April 2 by B3nDover

[Waeleto]

Are you guys happy now ? i hope you are

The FIRST warframe we got in years that was PERFECT on release, no need for hot fix buff or band aid augments and yall had to complain about him to get nerfed as soon as he released as if this was league of legends

Can't wait for dante to join the caliban and pre-augment styanax gang because people hate fun

[MortalMercenary]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hello! I'm popping my head in here to provide some dev insight related to this conversation. 

As Dante Unbound nears one full week since its launch, the team has been reading and collecting feedback in all areas, including Dante himself. 

To remind us of our nerfing philosophy, we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states.

We are currently happy with how favored Dante is and recognize that nerfs typically have a negative connotation. With that in mind, we are reviewing early stats with an open mind to ensure we don't leave room for disruptive or dominant play styles. Any tweaks done to Dante will be to ensure he is still performing strongly, just not disruptive or dominant. 

 

I do believe the op is too focused on the shiny big numbers that Dante can provide. Other frames can and do out class Dante in what he can do but he is still a good well rounded frame which is fairly required in this age of Warframe imo. 

A nerf to dante would feel unnecessary to many just like the original nerf to Styanax being able to recast abilities in the air was unnecessary when frames like Garuda and zephyr exist as they do now(and when he was nerfed) I get it for the animation jank not being able to cast abilities during his 4 but having to touch the ground still feels unnecessary and unfun to me and many others.

I beg of you please give some more time to think on whether Dante is really Disruptive or dominating compared to the rest of the roster and not do a knee jerk nerf due to this post.

[Askell91]

So in Devshorts it was confirmed like 30 min ago he gonna get some "tweaks".

We all know how it usualy goes. xD

R.I.P