I genuinely cannot understand Deep Archimedia sympathizers

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, ChaoticOrderly said:

I also want everyone to keep in mind that this is the first week. There are a lot more modifiers out there that can make the gameplay drastically worse and unless you have literally every frame and weapon built (which is the endgame status symbol apparently), you will lack the flexibility. It might not be this week, it might not even be the next few months but eventually the RNG and modifiers WILL allign eventually.

I also have an idea concerning builds, after reset today I will post my RNG selection here and I would encourage people to suggest build for my best options including how much investment I should put into it. You might think this a way to steal builds.

YES

I want people to prove that their build works while also being contributive the the squad and what better way than to ask directly? Shouldnt be no problem, right?

That's a great idea, and you shouldn't have to worry about being accused of build stealing, that's silly. Don't worry about people like that.

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ChaoticOrderly:

I also want everyone to keep in mind that this is the first week. There are a lot more modifiers out there that can make the gameplay drastically worse and unless you have literally every frame and weapon built (which is the endgame status symbol apparently), you will lack the flexibility. It might not be this week, it might not even be the next few months but eventually the RNG and modifiers WILL allign eventually.

I also have an idea concerning builds, after reset today I will post my RNG selection here and I would encourage people to suggest build for my best options including how much investment I should put into it. You might think this a way to steal builds.

YES

I want people to prove that their build works while also being contributive the the squad and what better way than to ask directly? Shouldnt be no problem, right?

Never feel bad about stealing builds. I dont know why some people have such an icky opinion about looking at what other people came up with in this game. It's one thing to judge someone for lacking knowledge but then also looking down on trying to gain information is just arrogant.

[GrumpyPants]

15 hours ago, LemuriaLight said:

Then you can do so on your own free time, the rest of us who hate RNG currently don't have a choice in the matter, is that fair to gate keep rewards over RNG?

I love EDA, there are many, many endgame players like myself that love the concept of trying to make lesser used weapons work. There are no rewards being gatekept behind EDA, you can early all of the rewards by running netracells with whatever loadouts you'd like. Sure, you might not get as many archon shards as those of us running EDA, but if you only want to play the same 3-5 frames all the time you probably won't need as many archon shards either. If you don't like it, just stick to netracells.

[ChaoticOrderly]

7 hours ago, ChaoticOrderly said:

I also want everyone to keep in mind that this is the first week. There are a lot more modifiers out there that can make the gameplay drastically worse and unless you have literally every frame and weapon built (which is the endgame status symbol apparently), you will lack the flexibility. It might not be this week, it might not even be the next few months but eventually the RNG and modifiers WILL allign eventually.

I also have an idea concerning builds, after reset today I will post my RNG selection here and I would encourage people to suggest build for my best options including how much investment I should put into it. You might think this a way to steal builds.

YES

I want people to prove that their build works while also being contributive the the squad and what better way than to ask directly? Shouldnt be no problem, right?

Apparently RNG decided to give me a break 

But by all means this doesn't prove that randomness promotes diversity, I'm not foolish enough to think that just because I got lucky that it's suddenly fine (having builds for the other gear would still be appreciated tho).

[AbyssalSerpent]

22 hours ago, ChaoticOrderly said:

1: RNG. This is not difficulty. This is an artificial limitation that only serves to pretend that it is. It's possible to roll things you do not own or even have builds for (reminder, endgame should not be owning everything). Duviri, while being RNG, has decrees to back up lackluster frames/weapons and weapons even have loaner builds (still no arcanes tho) and you can even reset choices by doing experience solo, do a fishing minigame (for bile mats), collect the decree and leave.

This exactly. It's just as ridiculous as players who said that "it feels like a breath of fresh air" to get killed by kuva liches when they were first released, when the only "difficulty" to them at first was if you made a wrong guess at a requiem mod combo you'll get one-shotted by them. RNG doesn't make the game more difficult or engaging, it just makes it cumbersome since if forces you to play with warframes or weapons that can't be saved at all (looking at you: Stug and Caliban) or in worse cases (like I got this week) you're locked out since you don't own any of the frames the game tells you to use. At least Duviri Circuit has the luxury of loaning you a frame or weapon you don't own with a premade mod setup.

[ChaoticOrderly]

I am now awaiting responses after the current modifiers because it is an EXPERIENCE this week. I managed to carry a premade with Revenant and uh...yeah...here's proof of completion

Edited April 8 by ChaoticOrderly
proof of completion

[AwwHeckASnek]

I personally like having to make non-ideal loadouts work at a higher level. I had to redo my Nyx set who I hadn't touched in years, for my run this week which I would never have even bothered with her otherwise, and it worked fine, I did well and while I had a couple small struggles it was nothing insurmountable. I don't  think an endgame-oriented system asking that of players is unreasonable.

My only real "complaint" Is i think they should trim some of the lower end weapons that have no upgraded variants (Prime, Kuva, Incarnon, etc.) from the pool, they simply just do not hold up well at that level.

[FiveN9ne]

I've read these threads and replied in one of them.

What is difficulty in Warframe and how would you achieve it? This is the main question that i need answered first. 

If a person has access to every frame, weapon and build in the game what is something they would find difficult?

The first issue is that people want everyone to be able to complete this mode. Then it cannot be difficult by definition. 

If something is truly difficult, only a handful of players would manage to accomplish it. 

So tell me, what is this difficulty and how do you implement it fairly? 

Also keep in mind Lua spy was removed from sorties because people complained it was too hard. 

[ChaoticOrderly]

52 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

I've read these threads and replied in one of them.

What is difficulty in Warframe and how would you achieve it? This is the main question that i need answered first. 

If a person has access to every frame, weapon and build in the game what is something they would find difficult?

The first issue is that people want everyone to be able to complete this mode. Then it cannot be difficult by definition. 

If something is truly difficult, only a handful of players would manage to accomplish it. 

So tell me, what is this difficulty and how do you implement it fairly? 

Also keep in mind Lua spy was removed from sorties because people complained it was too hard. 

Very easy, Mechanics. Think of Raids in normal MMO's that require you to position correctly at certain times, swap DPS target because the focus became immune, stack up in a certain location to avoid being one-shot, and even send out a small group to do a side objective. This is probably the ONLY difficulty that Warframe can reasonably add because of how much power players can potentially get without choking them of their freedom. Lua Spy is hard and does require some learning but it's also a normal node on the star chart that everyone has access to and not advertised as an endgame mode.

[Dubsurf123]

While I do think it's a step in the right direction, I think people are looking at it for the wrong reasons.

Archimedia seems like it was meant to incorporate teamwork again, as multiple objectives and modifiers means the importance of a frame shifts between levels — so while DPS is still dominant, now there are defined scenarios where crowd control and defensive frames become super viable.

However, it seems the community is seeing Archimedia as a way to min-max frames to do everything instead, which is worrying. I miss the days where warframe roles were more defined, but it seems you are penalized for not being able to do a little bit of everything.

Edited April 10 by Dubsurf123

[TheResinger]

On 2024-04-07 at 12:40 AM, NeDesitVirtus said:

My favorite part was the duo demolishers! 

Was it a bit more difficult, of course but it was a blast and we crushed it.

The demolishers were easier than normal because they had half health and just absolutely fell over... what

[NeDesitVirtus]

45 minutes ago, TheResinger said:

The demolishers were easier than normal because they had half health and just absolutely fell over... what

Lol I was using a Cyanex.I know, its OP. 

49 minutes ago, Dubsurf123 said:

While I do think it's a step in the right direction, I think people are looking at it for the wrong reasons.

Archimedia seems like it was meant to incorporate teamwork again, as multiple objectives and modifiers means the importance of a frame shifts between levels — so while DPS is still dominant, now there are defined scenarios where crowd control and defensive frames become super viable.

However, it seems the community is seeing Archimedia as a way to min-max frames to do everything instead, which is worrying. I miss the days where warframe roles were more defined, but it seems you are penalized for not being able to do a little bit of everything.

This!

[CrownOfShadows]

I find myself in a weird position where I am loving EDA and yet also agree with many of the points of the OP.

1. RNG is not difficulty: I actually agree with this. Does it make things harder? Yes. Is it difficulty? Not really - it's a gear check.
2. Modifiers: I actually would go a step further than the OP and say that modifiers aren't technically difficulty either, for the same reason handicapping yourself isn't difficulty. It's artificial difficulty. It's pretend difficulty - you actually don't encounter this stuff "in the wild" as it were. It's interesting to compare this to Nightmare missions though.
3. Gear: not all gear being serviceable. True, but we're getting there. Another strong round of incarnons and we'll be on the home stretch of having every piece of gear in the game being end-game viable which is actually nuts. Can't wait. For now, the gaps are low enough that RNG usually provides something that will work.
4. Rewards: disagree with OP here - these rewards are fantastic. I really still need a TON of melee adapters so I'm still very happy to get them. I don't want to grind 50k standing for one. Eventually I may not need any more of them, but that's a long ways off and the same can be said for archon shards.
5. Difficulty definition: I agree with this general sentiment where difficulty should be using all gear freely to it's maximum potential, but I disagree with 60 eyes being the gold standard because it still shuts off warframe abilities and uses heavy attenuation. The mechanics of that fight are strong - I like the fight itself. If we could use abilities and the attenuation wasn't such a chore it would be a truly fantastic fight. The ideal end-game content for me would be free use of any and all gear against content that doesn't use invulnerability phases, attenuation, or shut off warframe abilities.

All that said. I love EDA so far. I love the randomization, it keeps things fresh. I kinda wish you couldn't take any frame you wanted because there is already a bad trend starting where people are trying to abuse the Revenant crutch - but that's more a Revenant problem than a problem with the mode. I don't mind the modifiers too much, they make me think at least and sometimes adjust my builds. I liked the Circuit, and this just feels like a total upgrade from it, more grounded, back in the 'real' warframe world, less crazy, less artificial feeling, and much more team reliant too, which is a plus I think.

The great thing about EDA is that it is avoiding all the big pitfalls of the past. You can use everything basically, abilities aren't shut off, and it's still hard. Great job! We got there at last! That's basically the holy grail of warframe up until now, we didn't think we'd ever see the day.

Right now EDA is the best content in the game available to me. I hope they keep pushing in this direction, BUT I do also wish they explored "real" difficulty too, because I think that is the superior end-game in theory (although this gets into deep problems with DR stacking and damage multipliers and invisibility).

For now, it's a win, and I'll take it.

[Lord_Drod]

@CrownOfShadows Great post and I agree.  I do like the Kuva Tarkarian guys though, not sure if they turn off your abilities.  I look forward to the mission parameters each week and having to make decisions on how to beat it, between updating my equipment, which modifier to take off, and just how you're going to solve the mission.  It's certainly different and well thought out.  They actually did give us quite a bit of wiggle room between the vosfor, operator, gearwheel, necramech, and companion.  Thankfully not all of those are locked out every mission to help with minimizing bad RNG.

[BeefyScar]

Agreed. Can't count how many times I had to repeat the #1 that random loadout is not a challenge. Considering how many MR fodders we have, it causes majority of the runs to be bad experience, making that our baseline. Thus, whenever we get a decent roll, it make us feel good that we "won" a lottery. Since this is just a small piece of the game, it won't have huge impact. However, this ideology is actually very detrimental in a person's mental health.

Really do not understand the point in random loadout. look at akstiletto, afuris, azkani, kuva twin stubba, aksomati, twin grakata, and even twin gremlin. Compare primes and just kuva twin stubba, they do about the same damage. And very small difference of aksomati having spooling mechanic and gremlin being not hit-scan all of the listed guns are simply dual wielding secondary with minor IPS ratio difference. So its largely redundant. I have all of the listed except twin grakata but couple of them arent even forma'd. Other than aksomati prime and afuris prime, rest do not get to see a glimpse of use. It's simply kept for the sake of having the prime. If someone was to be efficient with their plat usage, its very possible the player didn't even keep half the dual wield guns listed above, since their functionality highly overlaps.

I understand there will be similar guns with minor differences and such and I have no problem with that. I will gladly farm the next twin automatic hitscan guns just to see if I like the sound better or something. But it is irresponsible for the game to do an equipment check when you do have that many similar guns.

Plus, the game mode itself, I don't know. I feel like the missions are simply made to be annoying without any pre-thoughts in the designs. Disruption spawns two mechs? why? Alchemy mobs where you have to use correct amphor? well guess what, no one will throw two of the amphor designated for the crucible on to the mobs, so that will significantly reduce the spawn rate. Mirror defense where defense target is lv98 while enemy is lv383? Is it really a challenge to try to protect a paper thin defense target? And heat proc on collecting requiems? game mode really puts a strong emphasis on having a health mod by having constant chip damage everywhere. 

It's honestly not challenging nor interesting. I purely run it for the reward, just like circuits.

[moondog548]

On 2024-04-07 at 12:15 AM, DecadeX said:

There's another problem lurking underneath the problems you outlined that is the real cause of your problems. Many years ago, when recruiting chat was still a good way to get a squad for niche things, when there were many fewer Warframes, it was generally expected that a player would seek out a wide arsenal. It let players flex into different roles for the needs of different gamemodes and squads, and it made a player's account resilient against balance patches. You can't be screwed out of squads because your 1 frame or your 3 weapons got nerfed into the ground if you have every frame and every half decent weapon in the game. Over time, with more equipment in the game and with a few large content releases forcing DE to be more careful about how they used their time, DE decided they didn't want to balance around every frame. That gave us what I call the Inaros meta. It's almost literally every piece of content released between the Plains of Eidolon and Disruption. DE's core design philosophy focused on minimizing the impact of equipment choices on player strategy. It's why almost nothing not directly equipped to Operators can buff Operator damage, it's why Thermia Fractures and Demolishers project nullfier bubbles, and it's why Coolant Raknoids are immune to all Warframe powers. I call it the Inaros meta because his being a big sack of health made it so DE could not eliminate him as a strategy without compromising the core design philosophy or every frame in the game, including modern Revenant, would die instantly. That's a problem because that started about 7 years ago, which is most of the game's history, and all the players who started in that time learned a different lesson than the players before them. They learned to pick a few favorite frames and weapons, and ignore the rest, because when DE said they were making challenging content, those decisions wouldn't matter anyways.

I am one of the old players who learned to build out an arsenal. Some players who like Archimedia and Circuit just like to play around with weird builds, but that's not really why they are the way they are. If you ever listen to DE talk about high level players, they often talk about players who have lots of gear and use it to trivialize every challenge. What has happened is enough player like me have stuck around and successfully failed to keep with the times, to the point that we've monopolized what it means to be an endgame player. That creates an issue where a lot of competent and capable players have been rocking with a few good frames and weapons they know how to use well, and then they load up SP Circuit or Archimedia and have none of them as options. DE has created a mid game design problem. Currently a player can take 1-3 frames and maybe 10 weapons and do literally everything in the game, and then they hit a brick wall when SP Circuit and Archimedia ask them to build out every single weapon and frame they can.

For what it is worth, there are a couple ways to mitigate Archimedia. The personal modifiers (the equipment restrictions and the 4 modifiers beneath them) are not lying about being personal. Two players with 2 completely different kinds and number of selected modifiers and still queue together. That means one player can take no modifiers to carry another player and then they can swap places for a 2nd run. For people who cannot unlock or beat Elite, Normal is more flexible. You should be able to turn off 2 modifiers and still get all 3 rewards from Normal mode which is more flexible than Elite gets and is still more rewarding than 2 Netracells. The Vosfor reward for taking all modifiers on Elite is also bait and not worth it. An MR10 player has 20k daily standing. If they spend 20k Holdfasts standing on 2 copies of Molt Augmented they can get 44 Vosfor a day. That's 308 Vosfor in a week. An MR28 player can get 3 copies for 66 Vosfor and beat the 50 Vosfor reward in 1 day. That's just off standing. Steel Path Cascade for example is a much better Vosfor farm than that as is Acolyte farming in general. If you want to go all the way for the 50 Vosfor, doing it once can be worth it because there is a Sumdali reward the first time you do it, but unless your weekly gear roll is real good, it's not worth doing. Just drop the frame modifier or one of the others if you already have a good frame to choose.

I do hope DE eventually smooths out the transition to being the kind of endgame player that Duviri and Archimedia ask of the community. They could do some content that unlocks after the Second Dream where several missions have to be performed in quick succession in very different locations, so a different Loadout has to be deployed to each mission for example. Something to start emphasizing the need for a wider arsenal earlier in the game without the RNG check, so players don't suddenly get stuck with unfamiliar options. It's still important to remember that Duviri and Archimedia aren't the way they are because of bad design or DE not knowing the playerbase. They come from a very old way of playing Warframe that the longest running, most capable players largely still adhere to. One where Vauban isn't good, but you should still be able to use him.

Absolutely magnificent post.

[LemuriaLight]

I'm all for more challenging content, but as it stands right now, EDA is just a lottery whether you get good gear or not (without considering leeching)

This week's mission just shows the crux of the problem, defense and assassinate are really just DPS checks and if you have bad RNG loadouts the missions can become impossible

If DE wants to encourage teamwork this is absolutely the wrong way to go, just go look at any MMO raids, MOBAs or even how people used to do Eidolons, you need to let people define roles and work out team comps, and make the enemies actually require teamwork to deal with (like drawing aggro, hitting multiple places at the same time, one party to cc and one party to DPS etc.)

you randomize everyone's equipment then of course they are going to min-max themselves because how can they synergize with their teammates who have random equipment?

Never take away player agency

 

[0_The_F00l]

I genuinely cannot understand why some players think their way of playing is the only way to have fun and anything else must be some insidious plot.

Why some players think getting every reward is a right and not something to be achieved.

Why getting out of their comfort zone is the equivalent of walking on acid covered burning coals and that they must do it.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2024-04-07 at 5:07 AM, ChaoticOrderly said:

I really cannot grasp the ideology of people who say this game mode is fine

Remember that RNG means quite a number of people will get Mesa/Styanax/Saryn *and* an Incarnon weapon as their random rolls. Of course they'll think this is fine. When I did the elite version in a group, *all* three players apart from myself had Incarnon weapons, and yeah Mesa/Styanax infinite Overguard everything explodes. While I was useless Limbo, the best thing I could offer was *not* to use my garbage abilities that would just bother everyone else.

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember that RNG means quite a number of people will get Mesa/Styanax/Saryn *and* an Incarnon weapon as their random rolls. Of course they'll think this is fine. When I did the elite version in a group, *all* three players apart from myself had Incarnon weapons, and yeah Mesa/Styanax infinite Overguard everything explodes. While I was useless Limbo, the best thing I could offer was *not* to use my garbage abilities that would just bother everyone else.

And what were your other two choices for context?

[Traumtulpe]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

And what were your other two choices for context?

Vauban and Sevagoth, neither of which I own (anymore, Sevagoth got chucked into the Helminth).

[Lord_Drod]

16 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Vauban and Sevagoth, neither of which I own (anymore, Sevagoth got chucked into the Helminth).

I actually haven't gotten around to putting forma in sevagoth myself and he isn't easy to farm.  Also requires a ton of forma and revives a different way.  I'd like to at some point.

I'd be okay with Vauban here, although he's not a frame I use often. 

I usually avoid limbo too, but maybe he'd be useful in mirror defense.  I think that is the harder challenge for the week as fair as failure goes.  

Limbo might be an okay revive bot, staying in rift and playing as op or using mech.

[Snowbluff]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

Why some players think getting every reward is a right and not something to be achieved.

For the record, DA is not an achievement. It's easy as the RNG allows to be. The "difficulty" is really a dice roll, so it's no wonder that people get annoyed when the game asked them to shell out extra time or platinum to complete their rewards for the week.

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember that RNG means quite a number of people will get Mesa/Styanax/Saryn *and* an Incarnon weapon as their random rolls. Of course they'll think this is fine. When I did the elite version in a group, *all* three players apart from myself had Incarnon weapons, and yeah Mesa/Styanax infinite Overguard everything explodes. While I was useless Limbo, the best thing I could offer was *not* to use my garbage abilities that would just bother everyone else.

Precisely. It seems to me that most posts that say they like Deep Archimedea also have a bunch of good weapons or frames available. "Oh I didn't think I could do this because I only got [insert multiplicative CO scaling weapon] with [basically immortal frame]. The odds were against us, Tenno, but we did it!"

[Mr.Holyroller]

Its fun.

Its more content, like circuit, where I'm rewarded for the 2k+ hours I have and all the builds ive made for all of my warframes.

 

[_Rhea_]

On 2024-04-07 at 4:56 AM, --PV--TrashySmashy said:

Some of us want game modes that reward making builds work. I play this game because I like finding weird and strong synergies. This mode feels almost perfect for me, I want it even harder.

Don't get me wrong, I love making builds, and all that, however I also have a life. A single weapon ground up from zero (which might need "a potato") requires often a lot of resources - a lot more than one can grind in a single week, if that person has a life. And my life is quite the nolife at the moment (what, 2-4 hours of warframe a day? That's quite a lot for having a life. I question having one now. !@#$%)

Even if you're going only for the box and pass on the last reward, in other words using either a frame, or a weapon that isn't on the list. You still need to grind for the other. There is plenty of other content in this game that I am yet to fully explore, I'd like to have some time to do that as well.