Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework

[TeaHands]

Ohhhhh Chroma's ice breath freezing a whole squad of enemies sounds prettyyyyyy dope.

 

[FabiTheSnake]

I really appreciate that we are finally getting something for Status effects. 
In my opinion elemental effects should be more of a style choice and less of a force to change your build and playstyle for every mission,
like having Electric´s arcs actually deal good damage, spreading as Melee Influence does it, and magnetic could also use some sort of effect like a growing bubble absorbing projectiles, but we already got that with mag and void status, so i get that. 

Armor is a different topic, the Enemy needed a nerf, but the Warframes still need a buff. 
Building Health tank and still getting oneshot at lvl 300... It denies different playstyles. 
In my mind, Armor should not be a number, but the % part.
Low level Enemies woud have 30% armor, innate 30% damage reduction, till a max of 90%. 
For Tenno this would be a similar style, but being additional damage reduction, introducing degrading armor:
Modded Armor will decrease damage of each attack, but breaking off a part of that mod´s reduction. 

We got Steel Fiber +90% Armor, scaling the Warframes base 30%DR to 57%DR, BUT also
adding 90% Damage negation which will degrade with incoming enemy damage. 
This second layer of armor can be restored by Overhealing. 

I know this would probably a pile of work, but something like that is needed in my opinion, if you make a build dedicated to armor, it should work somehow. 
I see people using adaptation and 6k Armor get oneshot, something like that just is no fun. 

Anyways, i wish everyone a great and refreshing weekend! 

[Qu9ibla]

hum... I'm not sure how to feel. The current systems has a decent amount of complexity, and it's satisfying knowing its nooks and crannies. So I'm a bit afraid of those changes. On the other hand, perhaps that's one of those changes that'll be good for the game as a whole, as it's true some elements are plain better at everything. So perhaps i shouldn't be afraid, and what's coming will be good. But... huh... perhaps we could talk about it for a good long while? Perhaps get the test servers back up to see how that's affect play?

but it sure is weird seeing mob ehp nerfs when you guys are pushing EDA and other "super hard modes". Sounds dissonant

[Probably_Asleep]

3 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Magnetic

Magnetic really needs something to compete with Toxin, and I'd prefer not to nerf toxin.

If you were to nerf Toxin, I'd suggest making it deal through-damage that scales with shields remaining:

• 100% Shields remaining: Toxin Deals 100% Damage to Shields, 0% Damage to Health
• 50% Shields remaining: Toxin Deals 50% Damage to Shields, 50% Damage to Health
• 25% Shields remaining: Toxin Deals 25% Damage to Shields, 75% Damage to Health
• 0% Shields remaining: Toxin Deals 0% Damage to Shields, 75% Damage to Health

In such a setup, Magnetic would be a more effective option against fully-shielded enemies, and for enemies that regenerate shields very quickly Magnetic would probably be more convenient for its ability to stop the regeneration.

This isn't the option I want however! I'm never a fan of pulling something down to bring something else up. Especially if it's two elements that are already not top-tier.

BETTER OPTION would be to give Magnetic additional perks that make it a preferred option. Perhaps something like:

• Enemies killed by Magnetic Damage have a 25% chance to drop an Energy Orb, with an additional 5% for each Magnetic Status
• Magnetic Status increases Loot Drops by 10% per status stack
• Enemies who have disrupted shields will explode at 10% of their max health per Magnetic Status stack at a range of 1m per stack
• Enemies with Magnetic Status exhibit a 4m field that, when shot through, increase projectile speed and Status Chance by 10% per stack
• Enemies with Magnetic Status attract other enemies from 1m per stack and have a 50% chance to spread 1 stack to every enemy they touch

So essentially something that improves farming, AoE, status, or grouping would be my vote.

[Gamer_Auto]

I literally advocated for this kind of simplification back in March, and people called me an idiot for it. Who's laughing now?

I'm all for making variation in Elemental Damage viable. Add in a "favorite loadouts" tab on the Nav screen so we can quickly swap between anti-faction loadouts, and the game will be in a place where I have little complaint.

[Petroklos]

22 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

i can smell there is more to this though , slash is going to get something changed too, and i am all for it.

I don't think so, nor that it would need any, and here's why:

Slash's main benefit is that it bypasses Enemy Armor and deals Damage directly to Health, but is otherwise the weakest of the DoTs.

With Enemy Armor getting reigned in, Slash's main boon becomes less impactful.

And since Slash deals Damage directly to Health, increasing Grineers' Health will increase the TTK from Slash DoTs.

That's two indirect nerfs to it.

Now, get ready for some maths:

• Slash deals 35% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • It bypasses Enemy Armor, so it's always 35%.
• Electric deals 50% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric scales with Electric Mods, so up to 265% with Primed Electric Mods.
  • That's 132.5% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric DoTs can Headshot, with a moddable Headshot Modifier of 1x.
  • So with Deadhead, they'll be dealing 1.3x Damage on Headshots.
  • That's 172.25% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Assuming the new Enemy Armor DR Cap will be 90%, Electric DoTs will be dealing up to ~17.2% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • That's half the Damage of a Slash Proc, with space to grow beyond it when paired with any Armor Strip (eg Corrosive from your Companion or Primer)

Speaking of Electric, another reason why it currently suffers against Enemy Armor is that Alloy Armor resists it by 50%. This seems to be gone, unless Kuva Grineer are resistant to it (plz no).

And lets not even get into Corrosive and Heat. A Heat Procs will be dealing that ~17.2% Damage of the hit that dealt them, but that same Weapon will be doing an Armor Strip of 90% under the new Enemy Armor which is capped and rewards partial Armor Strips?? Corrosive Heat meta??? (with a Viral Primer, duh)

Words cannot express how excited I am for these changes.

[HMS_Vesper]

I am strongly in favor of these changes. As noted in the devstream, almost no one engages with the HP types as they exist in the game right now outside of the most bean-counting builds. Making them more comprehensible is a huge step in the right direction.

Honestly I didn't expect to see reworks coming in on something this in-the-weeds but it's so badly needed and I'm glad it's happening.

[--Impulse--]

Please for the love of the game DO NOT. oversimplify the enemy material types.

I've been playing since October of 2012(this being a second account as I lost my first). There is NO reason to change the material composition of enemies. Oversimplifying this gains nothing but to appease the new players who join and don't care to read into enemies and study what works best and doesn't. 

If you're upset with the current element meta and want to encourage players to use other elements there are so many other options to go about this.
Take Halo for example, Halo has a Material armor system based on what the entity surface property is, for example a human will have flesh on their skin and light armor which has no resistances but they would have metal_thin on their helmet which has a 0.75 damage reduction to bullets but not for plasma. This hidden mechanic works perfect, there's over 34 different material types through halo 3 that have their own unique properties and damage resistances. You wouldn't see it unless you mod the game and you wouldn't know unless you experiment with different weapons and tactics. 

 

First, there's nothing wrong with enemy materials, condensing all material types into faction specific damage pools oversimplifies the combat and gives no incentive to actually build for the proper damage. There will always be a meta.

• The current meta is: Viral Heat on Grineer, Build slash for everything else.

Making everything have a region/faction specific damage will just result in the same meta but with different kits.

-Puncture Viral for grineer, Impact Mag for Corpus, Slash Gas for Infested.
-Corrosive puncture for Kuva grineer, Electric Blast for Vapos Corpus, Corrosive Heat for deimos
No matter what you do, people will still have a meta, of those 2 examples, the meta would just become Slash/Viral/Corrosive. The problem isn't that the enemy materials are complex, it's that all other elements are too niche or too ineffective. 

• Gas should ignore organic armor/shield but not on the direct hit.(Gas has terrible DOT, I never use it, ever. Not even with a 1400% damage boost from Chroma, it's awful even on enemies with no armor like butchers. 4k dmg gas proc will only deal 225 dot)
• Blast should stagger or ragdoll enemies based on the stack/damage and do more damage to shield/machinery, less to armor and make enemies 5.5%+ weak to effects Xstack
• Magnetic should emp/Agro switch synthetics but deal less damage to organic which would scam weapons/lower accuracy

Incentivizing players to learn the game's material system and making the codex more accessible is the way to go forward, not nuking all these stats to babify them into a simple health pool with + - effects. That's awful and completely unnecessary, it's going to ruin the game's flow and completely kill any interest in learning mechanics of it because you're now just holding the player's hand. The codex already has a clear explanation on what enemies are resistant and weak to, players who learn what's best to build for each faction are better off than simply breaking it down into "Grineer here are weak to corrosive heat, corpus are weak to Toxin Magnetic but resist cold"
That's NOT fun and ruins a lot of the challenge for building on enemy types, having to constantly check what the current faction is and swap your loadouts and rebuild everything is not intuitive.
Many players, like myself prefer building for general purpose on what best suits some enemies. For example, if I go to grineer heavy missions I'll take a weapon with high base puncture and status for armor weakening, for Corpus ill take impact status heavy weapons like the boar and hammers, for infested I prefer using melee over guns because it's just more fun to fight that way; not having to reorganize your builds every time you want to go into a mission to have the meta for damage, let me run it with what I enjoy, buff the less used effects, make them more versatile and play into synergy, for example:

• Max stacked Cold could chain with Blast to make enemies shatter below X mhp dealing 10% of their mhp as blast damage, spreading x primary damage stacks to nearby enemies within 5m.
• Gas and Heat combos on enemies could create a blast proc that spreads the heat effect to nearby enemies.
• Toxin Viral combo could make half of the viral stacks hit as a toxin proc and consume it adding to the damage calculated before the stack is halved so it still benefits from the hp damage bonus
• Radiation Gas could create a lingering radiation field that applies weak rad procs to enemies to cause the effect trigger
• Blast and Gas could double the radius of the effect when proc'd non stacking
• Gas and Cold could create a lingering damage pool of toxin on the floor.

I could go on. The idea is that your primary would have this combo that can't chain on it's own, but another player, warframe ability or secondary could causing a reaction that's engaging and usable as a tactic.

Secondly, the one problem I have always had with Status is it's impossible to NOT build for meta like Viral Heat in a way that's convenient. There's no easy way to simply get base status types and beneficial effects when building in the arsenal and it's incredibly inconvenient to organize your mods to get the effects you want since you have to organize them in a specific way which may require you to reforma or swap polarities where needed if something doesn't fit or uses too much capacity.

• For example; if you wanted to change your build for Corrosive cold but you cant because you have your bottom row as [Y D Y -] because you build for Viral heat you'd have to reforma/swap so you'd have to make it [Y - Y D] (Hunter Munitions, High voltage, Infected Clip, Cryo Rounds) for a Light armor stripping Crit/slash build. 
• This could be easily addressed by allowing players to swap polarities between loadouts but the problem then becomes, what's the best way to program it so it wont interfere with forma? Simple solution is reorganizing all polarities across every slot and giving a warning.

Suggestion to rebalance Elemental Meta

• Reprogramming the modding system so that it doesn't just follow the descending order of Top right > bottom right > combining whatever is in sequence has always been frustrating(OCD). Furthermore, weapons that have built in status types are impossible to build into. For example; I want my bubonico to have Corrosive Heat toxin, but I cant do that because adding an electric mod will just create radiation without adding an extra toxin mod as a buffer, then I lose the toxin effect, or if heat comes first then it makes gas electricity. And I couldn't build for Corrosive cold either without making Viral/Corrosive and then adding a buffer toxin mod to get the desired effect. From what memory serves, this wasnt always the case. Weapons with innate status types would combine into the first mod in the loadout and wouldn't combine with others and you couldn't flip positions, your solution was to make it so you'd need a buffer mod of the same element which kills mod capacity and slots you could have used to fit in something like Status duration if you for some reason EVER use them(please buff it w status+ or dot+).

Status mods should work like this: Mods next to each other should combine effects, IE: Heat + elec makes Rad, Cold + elec makes magnetic but if one of those types is being combined then > use uncombined if mods are adjacent allowing people to build Rad Cold but having more freedom with where they sit in the order. 
Top row and bottom row would separate mod combinations so you can have Cold > Slash mod (buffer) Tox + elec(Corr) and the two wouldn't combine, and for weapons with innate status types, if they don't have that type IE tox in the build then it would remain with their unchanged 27 toxin as a raw status type which would only calculate for 1.5% chance to proc on a status build with 120% with Slash Heat being the main source.
Letting players have more control over what status they want to use lets them be more creative with the sandbox without rebalances, if they want to sit with Viral heat let them.
Other players can have fun with their odd setups for a Impact Cold, Magnetic slash build that makes enemies explode into slashed critical damage numbers while the ones that dont die get their shields zapped/weapons jammed making the weapon more versatile than "big number = good" that would tie into the combo idea I suggested. 
One person could have this Cold magnetic build and another/your secondary could hit that affected enemy with something like Blast+Corrosive to obliterate the armored enemies 

Edited April 27 by --Impulse--
Revisions

[Kovcheg_]

please leave the armor as it is now, warframe needs challenge and the armor is the best to test players attention to warframe's abilities and build proccess!😭

Edited April 26 by Kovcheg_

[DTaina]

I'm loving the freeze changes!  This'll be great for Frost.  Now please do something about CC no longer affecting enemies with Overguard and I'll be happy.  

[RAZORLIGHT]

27 minutes ago, BETAOPTICS said:

or you'd have to manually mark/link your loadouts (easier to do)

This would be my suggestion!

If you want it, you can mark your loadout for faction x y.

 

[BETAOPTICS]

26 minutes ago, sXeth said:

 

• Run Magnetic and Toxin. Effective but the hard math probably says you swap in more damage or multi shot or whatever to your Toxin rather then burn two mod slots on a second damage type. (Even if we get +Magnet mods it’s kind of dubious)
• Run Magnet and Gas. Again you can make it work, but the toxin is generally going to outperform (without substantial additional work to group enemies, and significant enemy density already)

It's not just that but also since all element types are weigthed, sometimes adding multiple elements is actually detrimental because both of them compete from the same status chance % with the higher damaging element taking proportionately higher priority.

So for example with 50% status chance with a weapon that does 660 magnetic and 330 toxin abd 10 puncture, the status distribution would go as follows: 
Magnetic = ((660 / (660 + 330 + 10)) * 0.5) * 100 = 33% of shots, ie. roughly ever 3rd status proc or every 6th shot procs magnetic.
Toxin = ((330 / 1000) * 0.5) * 100 = 16.5% of shots, ie. roughly every 6th status proc or every 12th shot procs toxin.
Puncture = ((10 / 1000) * 0.5) * 100 = 0.5% of shots, ie. roughly every 200th status proc or every 400th shot procs puncture.

Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that as there is always necessarily some mathematical overlap but instead if the player simply opts for toxin and puncture, then they end up actually increasing the chance of proc from occurring on status effect.

Toxin = ((330 / (330 + 10)) * 0.5) * 100 = ~48.53% of shots, ie. roughly every 2nd status proc or every 4th shot.
Puncture = ((10 / 340) * 0.5) * 100 = 1.47% of shots, ie. roughly every every 67th status proc or every 134th shot.

[TheFlameFlash]

this is a bit too extreme for simplifying resistances i am fine with simplfying but atleast keep it to a degree where toxin is bad against robot/machines but electricity is good,
this is just too much on the otherhand

[-seid]

I am kinda scared of the "compensating for the armor damage reduction by increasing health scaling" thing.

This will effectively make it so that everybody will struggle killing strong enemies, not only people who dont strip armor, but people who do so too.

I know we are still yet to see the exact hp scaling after the rework, but i really feel like the scaling is gonna have to be insane in order to compensate for the reduced armor effectivity, which is going to punish both people who can strip 100% and people who could not strip whole or just strip partially if you are gonna compensate for it anyways.

It really doesnt seem to me like something thats gonna benefit anybody, people who could strip armour previously will have to deal with way much more hp and people who couldnt strip armor previously will have to deal with weaker armor but way more hp... Correct me if am wrong, but i dont think this isnt gonna benefit any players.
The only outcome out of this i see is that people who strip full armor will be punished by bulletsponge hp enemies (Big nerf) and people who dont strip armor will see bigger damage numbers that dont mean anything because of the bulletsponge hp pool (Nerf or the same situation [more likely nerf]).

We will see how it really is, but i dont think this is ment to make things easier for people who couldnt stip, its ment to make it harder for everybody whilst saying that people who dont strip full are gonna have it easier.

My humble opinion.

Pease

Edited April 26 by -seid

[Rigtis]

Just wanted to tell all of those who say that buffing corpus shields is dumb because of toxin bypass effect, the devs are not stupid, they know very well what is happening and will certainly do something about it to compensate, because they are not gonna work hard on new status/health interactions and stuff just for it to be discarded since day 1 because of old boring "meta". The fact that people are bringing this to the table is enough proof of how simple and trivial is dealing with corpus (unless they are amalgam version who are immune to toxin bypass), so DE is reviving those status effects that "meta" slaves call trash to make it viable over others that have become a rule of thumb for enough time already. So I hope all of this means no more viral/slash spam, no more full armor strip for grinner and no more toxin for corpus, like if shields and armor were just decoration. Actually people do this because dealing with shields and armor is an issue on high levels, so that's what is gonna be addressed this time. 

Edited April 26 by Rigtis
Typo

[Coolwhoami]

 

Dear DE,
The game  is at a point where you can take any weapon to level cap and you decide to nerf the enemies again. I was really hyped after seeing the enemies scaling rework expecting a buff.
First of all the cap to armor isnt THAT bad. it's so easiely stripped now that you dont really care about armor anymore. But you need to buff the HP by a lot, way more than you think. 
The recharge delay on shield isnt bad. Exept Toxin damage exist, it will ignore the shield and ignore this buff.
Also encouraging people to use Impact and magnetic when is a bad idea. You go in a Corpus map you use Toxin, you go in a grineer map you use slash, you go in an infested map you use viral. Thats it. it's a problem with the status  in general. But this is encouraging people to play worse loadout when you put that in the game.

Just because the existing metagame surrounding damage types is what it is current does not mean that changes will not change what is "good". It is somewhat bizarre to state that "the current optimal setup is x" in response to a post specifically outlining a goal to break up that meta. 

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, Petroklos said:

I don't think so, nor that it would need any, and here's why:

Slash's main benefit is that it bypasses Enemy Armor and deals Damage directly to Health, but is otherwise the weakest of the DoTs.

With Enemy Armor getting reigned in, Slash's main boon becomes less impactful.

And since Slash deals Damage directly to Health, increasing Grineers' Health will increase the TTK from Slash DoTs.

That's two indirect nerfs to it.

Now, get ready for some maths:

• Slash deals 35% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • It bypasses Enemy Armor, so it's always 35%.
• Electric deals 50% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric scales with Electric Mods, so up to 265% with Primed Electric Mods.
  • That's 132.5% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric DoTs can Headshot, with a moddable Headshot Modifier of 1x.
  • So with Deadhead, they'll be dealing 1.3x Damage on Headshots.
  • That's 172.25% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Assuming the new Enemy Armor DR Cap will be 90%, Electric DoTs will be dealing up to ~17.2% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • That's half the Damage of a Slash Proc, with space to grow beyond it when paired with any Armor Strip (eg Corrosive from your Companion or Primer)

Speaking of Electric, another reason why it currently suffers against Enemy Armor is that Alloy Armor resists it by 50%. This seems to be gone, unless Kuva Grineer are resistant to it (plz no).

And lets not even get into Corrosive and Heat. A Heat Procs will be dealing that ~17.2% Damage of the hit that dealt them, but that same Weapon will be doing an Armor Strip of 90% under the new Enemy Armor which is capped and rewards partial Armor Strips?? Corrosive Heat meta??? (with a Viral Primer, duh)

Words cannot express how excited I am for these changes.

That's partially what I meant ,

I also expect some changes to how some status dots double dip into some buffs and faction mods. 

Bleed is also currently neutral as a damage type , I am curious how it will affect shields (if at all).

I too am excited for these changes , it will be a very significant step towards an even playing field and one step closer to balance.

But I do feel there will be more to this and it's only step one of many other changes to come.

[vFlitz]

Was almost excited to try the cold changes, only for the last point to completely undo it

4 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

VIP enemies (Acolytes, Bosses, etc.) cannot be completely frozen; they’ll also be immune to the frozen-inflicted Critical Damage increase, naturally.

I get not being able to freeze them solid, but losing the other benefits too? This completely removes any and all incentive to use cold over heat. Nobody needs something that's only any help against rank and file enemies. Way to nip it in the bud before it could even attempt to find a niche.

[helioth137]

changes look good and much needed

busy working on something but i appreciate the general direction

👍

DevStream was a lot of Fun & had great general Vibe, cheers! :)

[Rigtis]

hace 1 minuto, Coolwhoami dijo:

Just because the existing metagame surrounding damage types is what it is current does not mean that changes will not change what is "good". It is somewhat bizarre to state that "the current optimal setup is x" in response to a post specifically outlining a goal to break up that meta. 

Exactly the point of this rework. The current "meta" has become so old that is even more boring than standard melee builds (which I also hope will be looked at someday). Viral/heat, armor strip, toxin, and specially slash have ruled warframe loadouts for years and that had to change at some point, which is extremely necessary to encourage synergies and variation like some of us have been doing for a while. 

[sXeth]

56 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cold
Our goal with Cold is to emphasize the effectiveness of the fantasy of slowing and freezing your enemies.

Cold now has a new effect where you freeze your enemies upon reaching the new Cold stack maximum.

 

ANNNDDD Frost just got another indirect buff and the Biting Frost Augment is throwing a party in the background.

Yeah, Frost probably should get an award at this pint for being beneficiary of enough stuff to constitute a rework but not actually done to him specifically 

[Hera.Ci]

 

Quote

1. Enemy Armor will cap out at a certain percentage to give Corrosive Armor-reducing stacks more of an active impact.
    
2. The Armor scaling curve will aim to be a bit more spread out, as opposed to being bottom-heavy. Partial strip from the top end will allow for more consistent damage gains, as opposed to needing to have a total Armor Strip.
    
3. Have a minimum threshold of any Enemy Armor.
         a. No armor-accessing Enemy will have below a certain minimum, Armor shouldn’t feel unimpactful. 
    
4. Health scaling of Grineer enemies will be re-aligned, to an extent, to help compensate for the loss in Damage Reduction and to try and maintain a similar time-to-kill feel.

 

Never thought I'd see the day! "Enemies MUST keep their infinitely-scaling damage reduction" has always been the weirdest hill for this game to die on (though "bullet hoses, grenade launcher, and marksman rifles all get equal ammo count from pickups" was close). Great to see these types of fundamental changes happening; I'm sure there will be some growing pains in the rebalancing but I cannot overstate how excited I am for a less-restrictive meta!

[Duo_Strikes]

36 minutes ago, Casardis said:

I think that no amount of buffing Magnetic will be able to make it any more relevant due to Toxin bypassing the shield mechanic altogether. I do think Toxin may need some kind of changes, even if it's not a direct nerf.

My personal suggestion would be to:

1. Buff Magnetic in some ways, maybe making the proc as an AoE with range falloff;
2. Disable Toxin's full shield bypass on direct damage, which will also help players avoid OHKO from Toxic Ancient and Mutalist Osprey who both deal Toxin damage;
3. Buff Toxin Status proc DoT;
4. Keep Toxin Status proc DoT's shield bypass.

This will make it so that Magnetic dmg may be ideal to deal with shield if you have a hard-hitting crit weapon, but if you have a status weapon, then having Toxin may be better to make use of its DoT.

or just make it so only the toxin procs can go through shields rather then toxin damage as a whole similar to how bleed works with armour, at least, thats my take on it.

[French]

il y a 15 minutes, Coolwhoami a dit :

Just because the existing metagame surrounding damage types is what it is current does not mean that changes will not change what is "good". It is somewhat bizarre to state that "the current optimal setup is x" in response to a post specifically outlining a goal to break up that meta. 

They didnt specify any change to toxin damage. In the image shown they suggest running Impact or magnetic damage. In literally no universe you should run any of thoses elements in a corpus mission.
 

[UnstarPrime]

I love it.  I don't expect this to be perfect right out the gate, but I anticipate it being a great improvement.  Thanks for taking things in such a positive direction!