Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework

[majistaria]

Quote

While Frozen, Critical Damage is greatly increased.

How will this affect Frost's Augment, Biting Frost?

[MobyTheDuck]

Question: Will enemies that are immune completely immune to status effect like Deimos infected with Viral, will get these immunities removed?

And its been a while since I used gas, not because the lack of visuals, but because I remember it became completely useless after a certain point due the lack of damage, no armor strip and no CC.

I think there is little point on using Gas if you can just use Heat.

[Kaiga]

Less is more, boys. 

The statuses that don't have direct dps affecting perks will always be inferior to the ones that provide other gimmicks. 

Until you change that, there will always be the same meta.

[Aenris]

Thank you for this.

I've been playing since 2013, and while I love the game and learned how to adapt to changes, I has been always SO DIFFICULT to get friends into it. They always felt overwhelmed by the complexity, and the ones who stayed felt annoyed that everything could be solved with 2 to 3 builds.

You guys are leaning more and more into making the game more accessible while keeping it easy to design for. Great job everybody. Love your work DE!! <3

[sXeth]

Well the problem with Magnetic is not that Magnetics own effect is without merit. But rather that Toxin bypasses the shield mechanic in entirety.

Bonus vs Nullifiers is again, fine. But it’s demanding a loadout swap to incorporate Magnetic (as viral, corrosive, cold, and even electric (particularly with Melee influence) are all going to have more obvious general use.

The argument could be made that magnetic/toxin would be the anti-Corpus ideal, but that’s mostly diluting your ability to quick kill via Toxin directly. It was mentioned on stream that the shields get taken down and we never see them recharge, so that was buffed, but barring a few hard immunity enemies (Treasurers) you don’t even take down shields, you use Toxin to bypass them. And a more generic loadout is going to likely incorporate Viral (for Grineer, Infested, Sentient, and Murmur 4/5 factions) which means it can’t also make Magnet as cold is already in use.

So for Corpus you would hypothetically 

• Run Toxin solo to ignore shields entirely. This cuts out your viral, but Corpus health pools generally don’t demand the buff
• Run Magnetic solo to boost shield damage. Ineffective when you can bypass 100% of the shield instead of 50%
• Run Magnetic and Toxin. Effective but the hard math probably says you swap in more damage or multi shot or whatever to your Toxin rather then burn two mod slots on a second damage type. (Even if we get +Magnet mods it’s kind of dubious)
• Run Magnet and Gas. Again you can make it work, but the toxin is generally going to outperform (without substantial additional work to group enemies, and significant enemy density already)

For pretty much any other faction you’re going to run viral or corrosive (with or without heat) on the armoured ones. And if you were specifically going into Infested, probably Rad/cold to shut off their auras and keep them out of range of you.

While the same conflict does exist with Slash and Corrosive, it’s generally harder to weight and force slash procs (albeit not impossible and also quite strong). And Slash damage itself doesn’t bypass, only the proc bleed.

Edited April 26 by sXeth
Typo

[McRibbles]

1 minute ago, NovaUmbral said:

If you want to make Magnetic GENUINELY good against Corpus, all you have to do is nerf Toxin. As long as Toxin is present and capable against corpus, Magnetic will never see the light of day and remain as an objectively bad elemental combination.

Hm, no, hard disagree on that one. Magnetic is indeed rendered irrelevant because of Toxin, but the solution is NOT to nerf Toxin. If you just nerf Toxin and hardly buff Magnetic, Magnetic will still be a bad combo, and now you've just senselessly nerfed Toxin. I've always been a fan of the idea for Magnetic's status effect to innately group enemies, as presumably niche of a scenario it might be (Mag+Gas could be mildly interesting for this express purpose, but would require a lot of mod space...), but in any event there's no need to nerf Toxin when you could just fix what's actually bad in the first place. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

3 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Blast
The blast is blasting! More to come!

Wile at it, please Rework mods like Thunderbolt as it has been outdated and useless for years now.

As it stands it has 30% for Arrows to explode dealing 250 Blast damage in a 10m Radius.

Rework it for 45% Enemy Health +450 akin to [Acid Shells] and limit it to Non-Explosive Bows.

[VonHaaiPaue]

Yet another time you prove you don't play the game.

[notMaxAwa]

honestly I dont see the need for an enemy scaling nerf. With things like incarnon weapons and tennokai, armor really isnt a problem for pure damage. even in EDA, pure damage works fine.

[PR1D3]

Cold
Our goal with Cold is to emphasize the effectiveness of the fantasy of slowing and freezing your enemies.

Cold now has a new effect where you freeze your enemies upon reaching the new Cold stack maximum.

 

ANNNDDD Frost just got another indirect buff and the Biting Frost Augment is throwing a party in the background.

[Dzoru]

On status rework, feedback/suggestions:

-Cold: pog

-Gas: no clue

-Blast: should do explosion on death, scales with stacks and % of enemy hp

-Magnetic: should pull/clump enemies together, like that one operator arcane that I forgot the name of @w@
 

[RobWasHere]

Imo Toxin should have a Slash treatment, Shields should resist toxin, but its proc goes directly into health. No matter how you buff Magnetic other than giving it some utility (the idea is often to make enemies get pulled to mag proceed enemy) if entire damage type goes through the defence it will be pointless.

[TeamPlasmaNowa]

This looks really good. Streamlining damage resistances was definitely needed for a while and this version looks pretty much ideal.
I only have some very minor concerns, the cold freeze cant require to many stacks otherwise enemy's are gonna die before they freeze and at the moment swapping loadouts/damage types between missions is very tedious, streamlining that somehow would really encourage differente builds for different factions.
Otherwise it looks incredible. Cant wait to see how it turns out.

[BalaDeSilver]

4 minutes ago, notMaxAwa said:

honestly I dont see the need for an enemy scaling nerf. With things like incarnon weapons and tennokai, armor really isnt a problem for pure damage. even in EDA, pure damage works fine.

Someone doesn't play at levels higher than 200...

[78c3d5b1]

Why to not remove armor scaling altogether? This would really help to eliminate difference in EHP between Grineer and Corpus.

[Duo_Strikes]

that cold buff better come with an avalanche buff for frost, its still dumb that avalanche doesn't cause max cold procs on use and it would make sense on the cold frame since he freezes all enemies with it.

Edited April 26 by Duo_Strikes

[ZacDaMan]

I'm scared of those health increases, I suspect that will have a bigger impact than we realize

[BETAOPTICS]

20 minutes ago, RAZORLIGHT said:

This stuff is incredible.

But it won't solve one big issue, changing loadouts manually is tiresome.

We need some kind of adaptive loadout system, based on the faction we fight.

If we fight corpus it will automatically chose the corpus loadout (if activated by the player) and so on.

One thing I like also on Helmith subsume you can change and view your loadouts on the spot so that removes the need to manually cancel, go change the loadout and go back to subsume abilities. That being said though I'd love it even more if there was a way to set automated damage types for factions in some way. The two issues I could see is how you do it from the code side because players have different loadouts at different slots so it would have be able to sniff your loadouts and search based on damage types (very hard to do and would affect performance), or you'd have to manually mark/link your loadouts (easier to do). Another potential issues is when a player would like to use a different loadout for whatever reason. So maybe then the solution would be a hybrid? Automated choices trough marking system, while allowing on-spot loadout changes should the player still want to tweak something.


---

Feedback to devs: I love what you are trying to do here and I think taking a look at certain elements like blast is a good thing. I've been waiting for updates to blast for so long and it's nice to know mandatory armor strip won't be necessary anymore. I do understand some players concern on making the game easier, but personally I think your approach as the right one.

One thing I wish Pablo would consider on is changes to the Magnetic. One major problem with it is that unlike any other damagetype, Magnetic only affects few factions because only few factions have shields in any capacity. Even though corrosive does not do well on Corpus otherwise, you can still always strip armor with it on units that have it and it still always does something to the faction.

Back when the melee arcanes came, I was a bit disappointed to find out that Magnetic got an arcane that would pull enemies in on % of proc. I was kind of hoping that would simply become an innate property of Magnetic damage type and the arcane would do something else. It would fit thematically, it would make the damage type useful against all factions and it would be a status effect players would want to consider on some setups. Hopefully you will consider my feedback.

Edited April 26 by BETAOPTICS
Added feedback section to developers.

[Koteksu]

Seeing that there is going to be changes to armor,and some status effects, i would suggest to not change the health types....Its an important part of progression in Warframe, having to learn how to be more effective in missions...this might make it less challenging and rewarding (seeing how the weapons you were modding and testing,are able to work well, feels good)

[Halo]

Caught it, because now I don't see the blast information, and people I know who were on the page swore by seeing the info there, meanwhile I refreshed the page, cleared the cache, closed and opened my browser multiple times, and still couldn't see it: 

Blast Our goal with Blast was to invoke an immediate and on-death effect to emphasize explosions.

Now, instead of Enemy inaccuracy, you detonate your enemies! When dealing a Blast Status Effect to an Enemy, the following will happen:

When Status is applied, deal a percentage of damage after a certain timeframe. Each Blast has its own timer, and goes after a second.

Accumulated Blast stacks incur on-death explosions using their combined damage from when initially dealt and forcing Stagger to affected (within explosion radius) enemies. Radius of triggered explosion via death may grow in radius per stack.

Either DE didn't want people to see it and removed it prior to posting, or something else happened. They all got it from the main link I checked, and I didn't see it initially. 

Formal Edit: DE has stated in the edited post now that they are still cookin with Blast ideas. Hopefully something worth while! 

Edited April 26 by Halo
Blasty Blastier Blast!

[TennoPain]

As long as it not like Murmur DPS dump im fine. 

[Agall]

3 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

 

New Armor Adjustments
Armor is king, most applicably on Grineer. Grineer EHP, also known as Effective Hit Points, is the amount of actual Health an Enemy has, including Damage Resistance (DR).

For example,

A non-Steel Path Heavy Gunner at Level 200 has 104,805 HP. Then, they have 10,815 Ferrite Armor, creating a 97% Damage Reduction, ultimately leading to 3,883,359 EHP. That’s a big jump from 104,805 off of just DR.

These changes are great, genuinely, but I think there's some stuff that'll need to adjust, take as an example, Radial Javelin's damage.

Currently, its damage on even armor stripped targets doesn't keep up, where the slash proc at least can. If enemy health is scaled dramatically to compensate for armor reductions, this'll make the ability even less viable than it already is.

My suggestion is to make Radial Javelin a pseudo-exalted. That'll let it keep up with modern AoE and get the initial damage and slash proc better in line with any buffs to health.

[crazywolfpusher]

The time has finally come. Fantastic changes and very much needed.

Whatever the outcome might be it can be worse that what we currently have. So I'll let you guys cook.

I just hope stuff like Mag's Polarize, Amalgam Argonak Metal Auger and Shattering Impact doesn't get behind.

 

Edit: After reading some of the feedback given by the community I would like to add my own suggestion regarding Blast status. Many abilities that deal Blast damage do not apply blast status effects and scale poorly on the damage side, so I thought it would a great opportunity to lift these abilities in conjunction, by giving them force blast procs in some way.

Sound Quake - Banshee

Fusion Strike - Caliban

Molecular Prime - Nova

Rhino Stomp - Rhino

Photon Strike - Vauban

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by crazywolfpusher

[Casardis]

21 minutes ago, McRibbles said:

Hm, no, hard disagree on that one. Magnetic is indeed rendered irrelevant because of Toxin, but the solution is NOT to nerf Toxin. If you just nerf Toxin and hardly buff Magnetic, Magnetic will still be a bad combo, and now you've just senselessly nerfed Toxin. I've always been a fan of the idea for Magnetic's status effect to innately group enemies, as presumably niche of a scenario it might be (Mag+Gas could be mildly interesting for this express purpose, but would require a lot of mod space...), but in any event there's no need to nerf Toxin when you could just fix what's actually bad in the first place. 

I think that no amount of buffing Magnetic will be able to make it any more relevant due to Toxin bypassing the shield mechanic altogether. I do think Toxin may need some kind of changes, even if it's not a direct nerf.

My personal suggestion would be to:

1. Buff Magnetic in some ways, maybe making the proc as an AoE with range falloff;
2. Disable Toxin's full shield bypass on direct damage, which will also help players avoid OHKO from Toxic Ancient and Mutalist Osprey who both deal Toxin damage;
3. Buff Toxin Status proc DoT;
4. Keep Toxin Status proc DoT's shield bypass.

This will make it so that Magnetic dmg may be ideal to deal with shield if you have a hard-hitting crit weapon, but if you have a status weapon, then having Toxin may be better to make use of its DoT.

Edited April 26 by Casardis

[ItGlows]

The best thing you guys can now do is to implement some way for us to make loadout changes easier. For example, add weapon and Warframe loadout changing option on navigation panel.
Or even better: Since you plan to implement recommended status notifications for each location, give us an option to assign weapons and Warframe loadouts to specific status types (Or enemy types. Even better, we would be able to use faction mods more effectively) so they automatically apply when we're launching the mission.

So, how would that work:
When creating a build in arsenal, we have 3 different default loadouts. Now we will have 3 different health types to deal with, so it would scale perfectly with that. So, on a build page, we would have a toggle "Assign the loadout to specific enemy type/health type" and there would be listed health types (Or statuses) to which we would be able to assign this specific build so it would apply automatically. It would solve so many problems and would be the best QoL feature ever. Sorry if it's hard to read as I'm just writing this from my head without proof reading :)