Deep Archimedea Evaluation

[WUHEDILIU]

The new mode in Warframe is really hard to understand. Players can't use their usual weapons; they're forced to use ones they've barely touched. Plus, the heavy restrictions with four negative buffs are completely unreasonable. Tenno are powerful because of the synergy between their skills and weapons. If you take away or limit those skills, the game loses its foundation. And now, with so much negative feedback, DE doesn't seem inclined to make improvements; they're becoming more and more arrogant.

[Shodian87]

3 hours ago, WUHEDILIU said:

The new mode in Warframe is really hard to understand. Players can't use their usual weapons; they're forced to use ones they've barely touched. Plus, the heavy restrictions with four negative buffs are completely unreasonable. Tenno are powerful because of the synergy between their skills and weapons. If you take away or limit those skills, the game loses its foundation. And now, with so much negative feedback, DE doesn't seem inclined to make improvements; they're becoming more and more arrogant.

This mode, as advertised on the menu itself, is supposed to be extremely difficult. I think it is working as advertised. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

12 minutes ago, Shodian87 said:

This mode, as advertised on the menu itself, is supposed to be extremely difficult. I think it is working as advertised. 

I would agree that it accomplishes its goal of challenging players to make use of limited resources.

However, another randomized gear handicap challenge is not the style of challenge many of us were hoping this would be. I'm with OP that it ignores the game's foundation. Warframe wasn't a random gear rogue-lite the first decade of its existence, and there are plenty of other better randomized games around if I want one.

It's disappointing to end up ignoring another new game mode, but at least I'm enjoying Netracells more than I thought I would now that the drops are fixed. Not "hard" but a nice enough place to test loadouts and tactics for the stuff I actually care about. Why reinvent the wheel, just give me "Netracells but they start at Lv9999" and I'm happy.

[sXeth]

2 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I would agree that it accomplishes its goal of challenging players to make use of limited resources.

However, another randomized gear handicap challenge is not the style of challenge many of us were hoping this would be. I'm with OP that it ignores the game's foundation. Warframe wasn't a random gear rogue-lite the first decade of its existence, and there are plenty of other better randomized games around if I want one.

It's disappointing to end up ignoring another new game mode, but at least I'm enjoying Netracells more than I thought I would now that the drops are fixed. Not "hard" but a nice enough place to test loadouts and tactics for the stuff I actually care about. Why reinvent the wheel, just give me "Netracells but they start at Lv9999" and I'm happy.

Pretty much. The random loadout kind if bangs directly against the ideas of investment and endgame build craft. And it does not create difficulty because you can roll up easy mode just as … easily. For DE to actually consider RNG loadouts as difficult, then they also inherently acknowledge that many of their designed frames and weapons are actually bad by intent. Doesn’t mesh well when they’re equally promoted and priced.

If they wanted to embrace difficulty and strategy, you’d just have something like 12 of the modifiers, pick 7 or something. Then choose your loadout to handle it.

Not the random fest where you are obligated (yes, not forced, for the pedantic) to enable whatever nonsensical uncurated sphagettibwascthrown at the wall and then also stripped of your ability to use your invested arsenal to strategize to it.

[Gaxxian]

And unless the RNG gives you complete trash, isn't challenging either. Just boring/frustrating at best.

And when you get RNG trash, isn't challenging either, just miserable.

[CrendKing]

15 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

And unless the RNG gives you complete trash, isn't challenging either. Just boring/frustrating at best.

Do you honestly think playing the exact same "BIS" loadout every week is less boring than playing something new every week? I think the epidemic of rougelike/rougelite games already tell some facts.

Edited April 29 by CrendKing

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 minuto, CrendKing dijo:

Do you honestly think playing the exact same "BIS" loadout every week is less boring than playing something new every week? I think the epidemic of rougelike/rougelite games already tell some facts.

Talk for you. If you only play with BIS, it seems like a YOU problem.

[CrendKing]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

Talk for you. If you only play with BIS, it seems like a YOU problem.

I'm confused. Are you one of those who not only can beat the EDA with ease every week, but also intentionally handicap yourself for fun, or one of those who still struggle to beat it at all? If you are the former one, you already have what you want. If you are latter, you are telling me you will deliberately not use BIS loadout once DE allows?

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 minutos, CrendKing dijo:

I'm confused. Are you one of those who not only can beat the EDA with ease every week, but also intentionally handicap yourself for fun, or one of those who still struggle to beat it at all? If you are the former one, you already have what you want. If you are latter, you are telling me you will deliberately not use BIS loadout once DE allows?

I'm one that hates will burning passiong being unable to use what i want. And i usually want unpopular but funny things on their own, giving a S#&$ about if what im using is BIS that year. If thats handicapping myself, then yeah, i play WF handicapped.

I don't have any issues beating EDA each week, but i want the rewards and i grit my teeth each week while i do it. I would prefer to use my Yareli and my Onos, or similar S#&$s. Tyvm.

BUT, if somebody prefers to use BIS (like you seem compelled to use if DE doesn't stop you), all the power for them in my book.

[CrendKing]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

I'm one that hates will burning passiong being unable to use what i want. And i usually want unpopular but funny things on their own, giving a S#&$ about if what im using is BIS that year. If thats handicapping myself, then yeah, i play WF handicapped.

I don't have any issues beating EDA each week, but i want the rewards and i grit my teeth each week while i do it. I would prefer to use my Yareli and my Onos, or similar S#&$s. Tyvm.

Understood. I'm sorry this mode is currently not your type of dish. I think Warframe has a large enough community that every type of player exist. Some like you, some like me who really like to have an excuse to explore new stuff that were shelved years ago every week. However, if that excuse no longer exists, just like electricity always go towards less resistance, I tend to pick a meta loadout to save time and guarantee success. Is it really a ME problem? I don't think so, because that's how most players play games. If there is a way to beat it relaxed, why bother to do it the hard way?

[Mr.Holyroller]

The new game mode that is designed to be difficult and encourages group play is difficult/tedious and sometimes requires you to rely on others.

I like the mode. 
It makes use of all the frames that I don't typically use and I've enjoyed going back and tweaking builds on frames I haven't touched in months/years.

Some weeks have been incredibly easy and I can do it solo or carry a squad.

Other times I either have to get really creative, rely on my necramech, or rely on my friends.

I do not understand what the issue is for a lot of people.

The argument of "I shouldn't be forced to XYZ" doesn't really work because you aren't forced to do anything. The game also already "forces" you to do plenty.
 

[Matt256]

1 hour ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I would agree that it accomplishes its goal of challenging players to make use of limited resources.

I don't agree. One good weapon or one good frame will get you through (arguably one somewhere in the whole squad but lets say you want to contribute). So if there's a weapon thats up to job in any of your slots you go with that and take the frame of your choice that makes avoiding death easy. If no weapon is suitable you just sub out the frame for one that can kill easily without weapons.

You need to possess one of the items in 3 out of 4 categories so you can tick off the boxes. But they can be unbuilt with zero forma or mods.

But to get the job done all you need is one good frame and one good weapon as your go to items for EDA, regardless of what RNG delivers.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I do not understand what the issue is for a lot of people.

It reminds me of players having strong preferences for limited or constructed in deck building card games. Obviously both are valid expressions of fun and skill. For the first decade, Warframe was a constructed format where players constructed loadouts from all available gear. Recently, the flagship "endgame" modes Circuit and EDA have been limited formats where builds are limited by randomized gear availability.

There's nothing wrong with limited format Warframe or players who enjoy that, it's just not what a lot of us signed up for. Nothing wrong with preferring constructed over limited, nothing wrong with continuing to ask DE for an "endgame" that challenges our strongest constructed loadouts, especially given the game's history.

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

It reminds me of players having strong preferences for limited or constructed in deck building card games. Obviously both are valid expressions of fun and skill. For the first decade, Warframe was a constructed format where players constructed loadouts from all available gear. Recently, the flagship "endgame" modes Circuit and EDA have been limited formats where builds are limited by randomized gear availability.

There's nothing wrong with limited format Warframe or players who enjoy that, it's just not what a lot of us signed up for. Nothing wrong with preferring constructed over limited, nothing wrong with continuing to ask DE for an "endgame" that challenges our strongest constructed loadouts, especially given the game's history.

I love this analogy.

But...is there a deck building game that's anywhere remotely as unbalanced as this game though?  My deck experience is limited to a few and pretty out-of-date, but based on what that's worth I'd want to say, "Not even close."  Combine that with the adversarial limits of a PvE horde shooter, and good luck enabling unlimited constructed.

[Matt256]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

There's nothing wrong with limited format Warframe or players who enjoy that, it's just not what a lot of us signed up for.

The point is it isn't even effective at forcing you a certain way. I actually play even LESS weapons and frames in EDA than I would if given a free choice. And then the way I play them is all very similar. Of course in the stats it seems like I'm playing with more weapons and frames, but in fact I'm just carrying weapons around in the mission to get a tick box or picking the best frame at not dying given the other modifiers assuming I want to pick a different weapon than one of the 9 on offer. 

[-AncientWarrior-]

I agree OP, the principle of EDA/DA is pretty good, if you didnt have the total RNG loadout system, these players that want this RNG loadout system could literally do it anywhere by just selecting Random from their own loadouts.. or removing all mods and doing it.. but nooo they want it forced down everyones throats..and that really say it all about alot of players .. 

I did a few solo runs in the first few weeks with crap loads and it wasnt really all that much fun, and I play the game these days to have fun.. so its run Netracells 5 times a week for a few Shards then back out into the SP world to kill those rascally enemies .... my cent and a half opinion

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Matt256 said:

The point is it isn't even effective at forcing you a certain way. I actually play even LESS weapons and frames in EDA than I would if given a free choice. And then the way I play them is all very similar. Of course in the stats it seems like I'm playing with more weapons and frames, but in fact I'm just carrying weapons around in the mission to get a tick box or picking the best frame at not dying given the other modifiers assuming I want to pick a different weapon than one of the 9 on offer. 

You're attributing a quote to me that I didn't write.

But the experience you describe is somewhat different than mine.  I have been using two frames as a crutch, Kullervo and Harrow.  But I'm having to  play them significantly differently and a lot more carefully than I normally would, and am using--actually using, not just slotting--weapons I wouldn't normally.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

But...is there a deck building game that's anywhere remotely as unbalanced as this game though?  My deck experience is limited to a few and pretty out-of-date, but based on what that's worth I'd want to say, "Not even close."  Combine that with the adversarial limits of a PvE horde shooter, and good luck enabling unlimited constructed.

Same balance problems impact limited Warframe where a good roll can make it just as easy as the normal Sortie, to say nothing of the bad rolls players complain about elsewhere here. I don't see why DE couldn't design content to challenge constructed loadouts. Even something silly like Lv9999 Netracells would be a step in that direction, I'm not sure why so many here are averse to just making the numbers bigger in a game that's so often about "big number make monkey brain happy."

[Vaml77]

The equipment shown in this mission should only present what users already have. Let's be honest about most of the weapons in the game being too bad or too uninteresting! Imagine having to put an average of 5 shapes on all weapons for each of them just to play this game mode? Not worth it! I prefer to do the netracells missions because it is more beneficial as we can search the map for syndicate points. In deeparchmedia missions it is a much faster and more dangerous pace. It's not worth doing these new missions. It's a game mode that unfortunately was born unnecessary.

[Matt256]

5 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Same balance problems impact limited Warframe where a good roll can make it just as easy as the normal Sortie

The balance problem is all frames and weapons are not equally attractive to use. This (and Circuit) seem like more of an attempt to make you have to use particular parts of your arsenal rather than have you want to use them.

[Matt256]

4 hours ago, Vaml77 said:

The equipment shown in this mission should only present what users already have.

The problem there is people would be tempted to strip all the MR trash out of their arsenals to only get stuff they liked. Also for those without deep arsenals it does likely make them acquire a new thing or two every week, if of no better reason than to carry it for the points. This mode is about encouraging you to be playing with the MR trash. I'm no too opposed to the game mode since it's one run a week. However ideally you'd hope 'endgame' meant you brought your best gear for the job and it was hard because you needed the best gear and builds to get the job done rather than the challenge being to win against 10,000 enemies while armed with only a fruit knife.

[Chewarette]

Do Randomizer-complaining-people even realize that without the Randomizer, the only way for DE to create a challenging content would be to make us fight against level 5000 Grineer with +500% armor buff, which would then force us to play a meta-warframe with a garbage gameplay, to which they would complain even more ?

The randomizer is a way to push players to play, build & test out other stuff, either because of the loadout's choices or the debuffs. Admit it : without the Randomizer you'd just take your Revenant, Wisp, Saryn meta with Incarnon weapons, and you'd complain that "it's too easy :(((("or "too monotonous". 

[(PSN)Sentiel]

50 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Do Randomizer-complaining-people even realize that without the Randomizer, the only way for DE to create a challenging content would be to make us fight against level 5000 Grineer with +500% armor buff

That's basically what every RPG does. Correlate difficulty to inflated enemy stat numbers and enemy density.

It's what Steel Path does and people generally like it as far as I'm aware, so there's nothing wrong with moving forward in the same direction.

Give us this mode with level 5000 enemies that have additional buffs and increased enemy variety and density. Have two Acolytes spawn at the same time for all I care. As long as it has exciting rewards people will play it and like it because they can use whatever they want in it without having their options being taken away from them.

[Chewarette]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

That's basically what every RPG does. Correlate difficulty to inflated enemy stat numbers and enemy density.

It's what Steel Path does and people generally like it as far as I'm aware, so there's nothing wrong with moving forward in the same direction.

Give us this mode with level 5000 enemies that have additional buffs and increased enemy variety and density. Have two Acolytes spawn at the same time for all I care. As long as it has exciting rewards people will play it and like it because they can use whatever they want in it without having their options being taken away from them.

That's where I have a problem. Give me a level 5000 Grineer map with inflated armor and that's supposed to let me play what I want ? Like I can play a Duration-based Zephyr with non-meta weapons ? Very unlikely - it would be a meta-required mission, where I'd have to play the most overpowered frames that exist.

[Gaxxian]

hace 6 minutos, Chewarette dijo:

That's where I have a problem. Give me a level 5000 Grineer map with inflated armor and that's supposed to let me play what I want ? Like I can play a Duration-based Zephyr with non-meta weapons ? Very unlikely - it would be a meta-required mission, where I'd have to play the most overpowered frames that exist.

Lol, imagine saying that Zephyr isnt good xD

Also, any frame is technically capable to go to lvl cap, you just need the skill and the right build. Isn't that what RNG-lovers want? To adapt? Its your chance.
And, in worst case, then the gamemode wouldnt be for you, so you can just not play it. Isnt like you need the rewards anyway, you still have netracells.