Why doesn't DE apply Crit to all "Object" based entities?

[Zahnrad]

So, you may be aware that Objects in Warframe behave a bit differently.

Unlike most enemies in Warframe, many of the Objects in Warframe are immune to crit, and only factor base damage when taking damage.

This can result in some weird instances when you have a weapon with low base Damage but high Crit Chance/Damage like the Amprex for instance. The Amprex is an example of a weapon that can perform well without using base damage mods using Crit mods alone

 

DE have made exceptions to this, for example the weakpoint on a Nullifier's shield or Drone is considered an Object entity in the game but was coded to take Crits.

But if it's possible to code Objects to take Crits, why not just apply it to all Objects in Warframe?

[ominumi]

I think this has been touch on in a devstream a few years back. Something to do with defensive objects. Because, yes, even the enemy units can crit the players.

[Numerounius]

They (very) recently only updated it for stuff to not crit against allied objectives and some other changes. Can't remember fully what the logic and full extent of the change was as it was only briefly touched upon with little overall impact. So it may also extend to what you are talking about here.

[0_The_F00l]

While I am neutral to this ,

I am curious under what circumstances does this pose a problem ?

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

While I am neutral to this ,

I am curious under what circumstances does this pose a problem ?

I guess the problem is that it's painful, every time we face or will face an object-based encounter, to have to make a very specific build just for that. It's the case for the Fomorian for example. For a more common example - Artic Eximus' Snow Globe is apparently also an object (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Object), so having crit builds do nothing crazy.

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I guess the problem is that it's painful, every time we face or will face an object-based encounter, to have to make a very specific build just for that. It's the case for the Fomorian for example. For a more common example - Artic Eximus' Snow Globe is apparently also an object (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Object), so having crit builds do nothing crazy.

The book as well when finishing off the Whisper.

[0_The_F00l]

12 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I guess the problem is that it's painful, every time we face or will face an object-based encounter, to have to make a very specific build just for that. It's the case for the Fomorian for example. For a more common example - Artic Eximus' Snow Globe is apparently also an object (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Object), so having crit builds do nothing crazy.

I think all of those are reasonable mechanics to have with means to overcome them with a bit of active play.

Having something that counters crit while being relatively uncommon is good.

[Zahnrad]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think all of those are reasonable mechanics to have with means to overcome them with a bit of active play.

Having something that counters crit while being relatively uncommon is good.

Can agree to that, but it's more the fact that it doesn't feel intended.

[Merkranire]

Definitely curios. Maybe some kind of incentivisation to build for base damage when building for damage is necessary?

Edited May 14 by Merkranire

[PollexMessier]

I have 2 major issues with objects
How many warframe abilities are unable to target them. Seriously every single aoe should damage objects, not just like, 3 aoe abilities total.

And the ramparts. Their "health" and damage scale with level. They become virtually indestructible and defense-objecitve vaporizing threats on steel path. Those things are
b r o k e n.

Edited May 14 by PollexMessier

[Zahnrad]

6 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

How many warframe abilities are unable to target them. Seriously every single aoe should damage objects, not just like, 3 aoe abilities total.

Agree with that. I'm not sure why they don't do that. Even if someone wanted to argue it prevents spamming abilities to destroy containers...well. The few abilities that can damage them already have massive AoEs that do it anyway. Xaku, Limbo and Gauss.

8 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

And the ramparts. Their "health" and damage scale with level. They become virtually indestructible and defense-objecitve vaporizing threats on steel path. Those things are
b r o k e n.

I wish Players had some sort of buffed version of Ramparts when using them. I'd forgive them for scaling if they were useful for players but they scale more against players than scaling for players to use them as a viable offensive option.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Can agree to that, but it's more the fact that it doesn't feel intended.

I am certain it's intended , I can't recollect the exact devstream , but I do believe this has come up in one of them.

Objects are affected by neither crit nor status for that matter.

It would be interesting if some units have object health as some sort of gate , like the domas on the PoE that protect some weakpoints.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Could probably do with a few examples of what you mean by Objects? Objects to me would be Containers and Chests and I can't recall ever needing to crit them.

Also just an FYI, if it has anything to do with the Whispers Book in Albrechts Lab, most players seem to be "fighting harder, not smarter". It's a Void Book, use your Operator/Drifter next time and watch it melt.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Could probably do with a few examples of what you mean by Objects? Objects to me would be Containers and Chests and I can't recall ever needing to crit them.

Arctic Eximus bubbles, Profit-Taker Pylons, Exploiter Orb weakpoints, and Fomorian Sabotage are all considered objects as well. OP is just pointing out what happens when you hit these objects with weapons that leverage critical hits with lower base damage. It's a pretty bad time.

Edited May 14 by Voltage

[Loza03]

Honestly, it gives high base damage weapons a bit more to do, and it maintains the value of enemies like the Frozen Eximus. Just shooting the big bubble until it dies is less effective then going in there and shooting the Eximus themselves. 

If it increases build variety (at least in theory), and increases the variety of play situations the player encounters, I see no reason to remove it.

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

And the ramparts. Their "health" and damage scale with level. They become virtually indestructible and defense-objecitve vaporizing threats on steel path. Those things are
b r o k e n.

This I agree with though.  That one Rampart on the Mars map... ergh.

[Aruquae]

4 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Definitely curios. Maybe some kind of incentivisation to build for base damage when building for damage is necessary?

Oh hey welcome back. Haven’t seen you in a while. 
 

in regards to the post… I never noticed. Still using status weapons with low crit and high base damage. Seems like Nataruk would suffer though. Overall interesting, I wonder if DE can use this mechanic to it’s advantage. 

[Merkranire]

59 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Oh hey welcome back. Haven’t seen you in a while. 
 

in regards to the post… I never noticed. Still using status weapons with low crit and high base damage. Seems like Nataruk would suffer though. Overall interesting, I wonder if DE can use this mechanic to it’s advantage. 

Yeah. Honestly could probably have and probably should have left it for longer, but I can’t not open my dumb mouth or revisit old haunts where the whole revolves around a game I love after discovering newly-changed things and wondering what the deal is. I’m guessing that 25 pages of arguing got deleted or something since I didn’t log into a bunch of snarky responses from people having the last word after I quit, which was a surprise considering

Regarding the topic: yeah, I wouldn’t mind seeing what else DE would do with it, though I’m also kind of wondering what the thinking is for the stuff they’ve already got it applied to. Seems an odd distinction to make, but maybe it’s tied into things like our void damage tool…? The game’s pretty difficult to see from a holistic view with all of its intertwining components, but it’s definitely a counter to damage, just not sure… why.

edit: If I ever caught an Ask Me Anything, I’d have so many questions to better understand the game and why it works the way it does

Edited May 14 by Merkranire

[Aruquae]

8 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Yeah. Honestly could probably have and probably should have left it for longer, but I can’t not open my dumb mouth or revisit old haunts where the whole revolves around a game I love after discovering newly-changed things and wondering what the deal is.

Ahhh, so it was the new update? Figured, that’s usually how it goes. 

 

8 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’m guessing that 25 pages of arguing got deleted or something since I didn’t log into a bunch of snarky responses from people having the last word after I quit, which was a surprise considering

Nope, not deleted. Just a relic. Let’s leave it as a relic at this point. In fact… we got a whole new “Nuke Builds” thread going on. Of course it’s not about nuke builds, but it has turned into two people arguing about void knows what. 

 

10 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Regarding the topic: yeah, I wouldn’t mind seeing what else DE would do with it, though I’m also kind of wondering what the thinking is for the stuff they’ve already got it applied to. Seems an odd distinction to make, but maybe it’s tied into things like our void damage tool…? The game’s pretty difficult to see from a holistic view with all of its intertwining components, but it’s definitely a counter to damage, just not sure… why. 

I believe it’s because most of those “objects,” lack any defense. Not counting bosses, I’m referring to things like barrels. They have low base HP no matter what level. Of course, I could be misunderstanding what barrels are, in which case I sound like a dumbass. Well, moreso than usual to some people. 

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Ahhh, so it was the new update? Figured, that’s usually how it goes. 

Honestly I hesitate to get back into Warframe sometimes because I know it’s going to be such a delicious mix of extrinsic and intrinsic rewards that it’ll take a decent chunk of my free time, and… here we are.

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Nope, not deleted. Just a relic. Let’s leave it as a relic at this point. In fact… we got a whole new “Nuke Builds” thread going on. Of course it’s not about nuke builds, but it has turned into two people arguing about void knows what. 

Huh. Honestly, 25 pages of being reminded that there’s no discussion to be had over sharing the mission unless forced to do so could probably stand to be deleted, though it sounds like this new “Nuke builds” topic could involve a rehashing of the same tired argument, considering what nuke builds entail.

14 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I believe it’s because most of those “objects,” lack any defense. Not counting bosses, I’m referring to things like barrels. They have low base HP no matter what level. Of course, I could be misunderstanding what barrels are, in which case I sound like a dumbass. Well, moreso than usual to some people. 

Low-HP barrels make sense, since object health doesn’t scale. And honestly I only learned that just recently after double-checking the wiki and learning that object health wasn’t what I thought it was (for some reason I thought things like the Grineer turrets had object health), so if anything I’m the one sounding like a dumbass since I now need to reconsider my thoughts about what no-crit object health means in light of this new information despite acting like I knew what I was talking about.

Though I still think it can be an equaliser of some sort; usually direct damage is what I build for when needed because I’m not a fan of the randomness of crit (unless I’m looking to build for a bit of random), opting for more stable numbers that don’t fluctuate so I can get a more accurate sense of TTK, and no-crit health can enforce less randomness

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I see what you mean, but there's also so many ways to increase base damage nowadays. 

For object damage, high fire rate also helps. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Easy fix. Just add little heads to containers, barrels, nullifier shields, grates, grate Prime, etc

Should be tasteful and thematic per the object. Like obviously a head on a container should be the same texture and size as the container, so Orokin crates head's would be different to Grineer crate heads, grate heads etc. Then these little heads on the object, will let you crit them. Also with the addition of heads, they'll probably be able to make noises, so shooting the objects will now result in different voice lines. Maybe death screams, uncomfortable and ambiguous groans, perhaps pleas and questions, about why the objects have been given functional heads, and sapience, if only so they can die, yadda yadda. 

Heads on Objects #2024! 

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2024-05-13 at 7:43 PM, ominumi said:

I think this has been touch on in a devstream a few years back. Something to do with defensive objects. Because, yes, even the enemy units can crit the players.

Actually, that was recently changed:

Quote

Hotfix 35.0.9 (2024-01-17)

• Removed the ability for enemies to deal critical hits to players, Defense targets, Extractors, Rescue targets, and all other friendly targets.
  • In most cases, enemies equipped with “player” weapons (Grineer Ballista using the Vulkar for example) could land critical hits due to those weapons using the same crit setup as their player counterpart. With a lack of feedback to inform players as to why or how sudden damage spikes were occurring, these enemies could easily jeopardize a mission. Additionally, while it makes sense to reward players for landing critical headshots, whether an enemy hits a head or not is outside of player control - which ultimately made countering it near impossible. So, in an effort to provide more consistent and predictable damage output from enemies, we have removed their ability to deal critical hits.