void fissure reactants in endless mode still broken after a year.

[latetier]

after a year away, im stepping back into warframe and i find that the void fissure system is still utterly broken for endless missions like survival.

what is broken exactly?

void reactants. the 0/10 reactants you need to collect to crack open a relic.

sometimes the game just decides to not spawn enough enemies to drop enough reactants for your group. why? who knows?

some have said that its because groups "kill too fast". if that is the case, then this system is just badly designed. the general gameplay flow in a mission like survival is designed to be fast, move fast, shoot fast, but now players should AFK while mobs spawn? that is an extremely jarring design that gives whiplash.

furthermore i don't think it is solely the problem of players killing mobs too fast. random groups and i have sat and waited not killing anything and still not enough mobs that drop reactants ever appear.

im sure anyone that has played an endless mode for void traces has come across this problem at least once if not many times.

what solution should there be for it? i've already seen many people suggest good solutions for it. the best solution i've read is when one person picks up reactants, just make it count for everyone. (this already exists in railjack mode so it should not be a huge task to make it work everywhere else). but i would add cut the reactants you need to crack open the relic in half. that should be a really simple fix. instead of 10 just make it so u need 5.

Edited June 10 by latetier

[trst]

At this point it's not broken, it's by design since Fissures have had this "issue" since release. Just take the advice and don't kill non-corrupted enemies in the early rounds. The solution is obvious to anyone who's done more than a singe Fissure and it isn't even detrimental in any way.

If they were to "fix" it the solution would just be a dynamic drop rate to buff it in low-density missions. But there is no fix if players want to insist on spawn killing enemies and never killing Corrupted spawns in the first place. So anything short of just handing cracked Relics to players for free, which isn't going to happen, it'd still be an "issue".

[latetier]

19 minutes ago, trst said:

 it isn't even detrimental in any way.

did u just not read the post? why are people like this.
as stated already but ill state again since you refuse to read, have already done it that way and sometimes still not enough traces.

Edited June 10 by latetier

[Hayrack]

At bare mininum, traces should be hard capped at 15 and 10 nearest of them always marked on a minimap for a player.

[NinjaZeku]

... okay, this is rustling my jimmies enough that I feel the need to clarify the proper names here, there are

Void Traces, the resource you get when you open a Relic

and

Reactant, the drops you need to pick up to open Relics (and what this topic is actually about).

Edited June 10 by NinjaZeku

[latetier]

19 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

... okay, this is rustling my jimmies enough that I feel the need to clarify the proper names here, there are

Void Traces, the resource you get when you open a Relic

and

Reactant, the drops you need to pick up to open Relics (and what this topic is actually about).

for the life of me when creating this post i could not think of what it was called. but yeah, that.

Edited June 10 by latetier

[Slayer-.]

3 hours ago, latetier said:

after a year away, im stepping back into warframe and i find that the void fissure system is still utterly broken for endless missions like survival.

what is broken exactly?

void traces. not the traces you get at the end of the mission. but the 0/10 traces you need to collect to crack open a relic.

sometimes the game just decides to not spawn enough enemies to drop enough traces for your group. why? who knows?

some have said that its because groups "kill too fast". if that is the case, then this system is just badly designed. the general gameplay flow in a mission like survival is designed to be fast, move fast, shoot fast, but now players should AFK while mobs spawn? that is an extremely jarring design that gives whiplash.

furthermore i don't think it is solely the problem of players killing mobs too fast. random groups and i have sat and waited not killing anything and still not enough mobs that drop traces ever appear.

im sure anyone that has played an endless mode for void traces has come across this problem at least once if not many times.

what solution should there be for it? i've already seen many people suggest good solutions for it. the best solution i've read is when one person picks up traces, just make it count for everyone. (this already exists in railjack mode so it should not be a huge task to make it work everywhere else). but i would add cut the traces you need to crack open the relic in half. that should be a really simple fix. instead of 10 just make it so u need 5.

The problem will never be fixed by increasing reactant drops because players are HELL BENT on being spread out over the whole survival mission, even if you increase the drop amount players will ALWAYS find a way to kill the enemies before they get corrupted and then come to the forums to complain.

Back in my early days with friends and clan mates in Discord, WE stayed in the same room/area or at least close enough that we could go through a door to get enough reactant, also to let the bot pathing of enemies come to us, we never had a problem with drop amounts to open a relics in survival.

I've been in pub squads in survival recently and it is a constant nightmare because some player/s will go to the other end of the map to kill maybe ten more enemies than the rest of us which can mess up the pathing and amount of enemies spawning where the other players are, I've had to run around the whole damn map to each little pocket of where each player is to get enough.

 

The Fix is simple: make the reactant a squad share when someone picks up a reactant the whole squad gets it.

[latetier]

23 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

The Fix is simple: make the reactant a squad share when someone picks up a reactant the whole squad gets it.

yeah. and the fix already exists in other modes. wouldn't take much to flip some switches and dials to bring it from railjack here.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb latetier:

after a year away, im stepping back into warframe and i find that the void fissure system is still utterly broken for endless missions like survival.

what is broken exactly?

void traces. not the traces you get at the end of the mission. but the 0/10 traces you need to collect to crack open a relic.

sometimes the game just decides to not spawn enough enemies to drop enough traces for your group. why? who knows?

some have said that its because groups "kill too fast". if that is the case, then this system is just badly designed. the general gameplay flow in a mission like survival is designed to be fast, move fast, shoot fast, but now players should AFK while mobs spawn? that is an extremely jarring design that gives whiplash.

furthermore i don't think it is solely the problem of players killing mobs too fast. random groups and i have sat and waited not killing anything and still not enough mobs that drop traces ever appear.

im sure anyone that has played an endless mode for void traces has come across this problem at least once if not many times.

what solution should there be for it? i've already seen many people suggest good solutions for it. the best solution i've read is when one person picks up traces, just make it count for everyone. (this already exists in railjack mode so it should not be a huge task to make it work everywhere else). but i would add cut the traces you need to crack open the relic in half. that should be a really simple fix. instead of 10 just make it so u need 5.

As you have already written, the problem has been known for a long time. It is also discussed regularly. The solutions from the players are more than well-founded in my opinion.

However, there is no reaction for a long time?!

Because this mechanic used to be OK. But there were no console hosts in the past either! And now you can even forget about endless surv if people are not in the same room! And the difference between normal and sp is extreme!

I once had a run in Deimos endless sp surv where beginners destroyed the spawn rate.... people had 3/10 shortly before the end of the round..... I immediately pressed alt+f4.

So I would even go further and do away with this nonsense with tracers completely!!!! 10/10 is just for the buff! And there are rewards for everyone after the round/mission is over! capture then becomes an ext mission....
because their anti-afk code is now very good and we don't need this miserable way of playing anymore!
or how cool is it if some beginner camps at the spawn in capture and only kills enemies there? and then everyone else has to run back because tracers don't drop anymore?

[Slayer-.]

26 minutes ago, latetier said:

yeah. and the fix already exists in other modes. wouldn't take much to flip some switches and dials to bring it from railjack here.

Would be better as a universal pickup save the stroke when we see the countdown and realise no more reactant dropping because some player across the other side of the planet has had more luck with spawn rates and is drowning in the stuff. ^{_{(hope ya choke on it lol)}}

10 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

As you have already written, the problem has been known for a long time. It is also discussed regularly. The solutions from the players are more than well-founded in my opinion.

However, there is no reaction for a long time?!

Because this mechanic used to be OK. But there were no console hosts in the past either! And now you can even forget about endless surv if people are not in the same room! And the difference between normal and sp is extreme!

I once had a run in Deimos endless sp surv where beginners destroyed the spawn rate.... people had 3/10 shortly before the end of the round..... I immediately pressed alt+f4.

So I would even go further and do away with this nonsense with tracers completely!!!! 10/10 is just for the buff! And there are rewards for everyone after the round/mission is over! capture then becomes an ext mission....
because their anti-afk code is now very good and we don't need this miserable way of playing anymore!
or how cool is it if some beginner camps at the spawn in capture and only kills enemies there? and then everyone else has to run back because tracers don't drop anymore?

I've found newer players or even some older players (unless I don't pub much) seem to run to the ends of the map and it's a pain in the arse.

[(PSN)manicmartz61]

I really miss that rectangular corpus tileset with the four sets of stairs where enemies spawned from all sides. Had many a long survival session on there with no real issues of people running off to find a ' better' room. Ahhhh good times. Wish it would come back like the old corpus tileset at tyrana pass.

[Hexerin]

Stop killing enemies before they get corrupted. Congrats, you've fixed your "issue".

Spoiler

The real issue is a playerbase that refuses to RTFM.

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, latetier said:

yeah. and the fix already exists in other modes. wouldn't take much to flip some switches and dials to bring it from railjack here.

The idea of teamwork to get the reactants to spawn in the most optimal way gets lost when DE caves in and allows squad sharing of the reactants. This is one of the few games modes where teamwork makes or breaks the run and, in my 8 years of playing, I have never had an issue with getting enough reactants when the squad is on point. Only when players spread too far away or pick bad spawn areas, do I have issues with gathering. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

the sad thing is, in Railjack void storms, reactant is actually shared. there's no reason they couldn't just make it work the same way in regular missions: no more killing stuff too fast before it can become corrupted, no more having to all camp in one room so the spawns don't get scattered and you have to parkour repeatedly across the entire map to get your reactant, it would be PERFECT.

the solution is literally already in the game, but it's never gonna happen because it's too simple and too convenient, so DE won't do it. prove me wrong DE, I dare you!

[latetier]

52 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The idea of teamwork to get the reactants to spawn in the most optimal way gets lost when DE caves in and allows squad sharing of the reactants. This is one of the few games modes where teamwork makes or breaks the run and, in my 8 years of playing, I have never had an issue with getting enough reactants when the squad is on point. Only when players spread too far away or pick bad spawn areas, do I have issues with gathering. 

crazy idea i know, but when you join a random public lobby, you are already working in a team. that person brought a relic to crack, and is sharing that relic opening with 3 other players. that is team work. being punished for some arbitrary bad design issue is not team work.

you want the average player to not kill enemies and afk instead in a looter shooter horde game that is all about killing enemies? are you okay?

you think its ok that players are punished because of a badly designed mechanic of reactants not dropping enough. that's fine if that is your opinion but we clearly disagree.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1. Someone in your group messed up spawns by running away from the group. 

2. Everyone except PC has bad spawns because our hardware is bad. 

3. Survival is optimally ran with 1 speed nova, and one 280 range loki. 

[trst]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

the sad thing is, in Railjack void storms, reactant is actually shared. there's no reason they couldn't just make it work the same way in regular missions: no more killing stuff too fast before it can become corrupted, no more having to all camp in one room so the spawns don't get scattered and you have to parkour repeatedly across the entire map to get your reactant, it would be PERFECT.

the solution is literally already in the game, but it's never gonna happen because it's too simple and too convenient, so DE won't do it. prove me wrong DE, I dare you!

Except shared Reactant is a solution to an entirely different issue.

It was added to Railjack only because the mode is designed for players to split up and has areas you can't return to. Without shared Reactant there some players would be entirely unable to get their 10 while performing necessary tasks for the mission. So it's a solution to Reactant drops being too spread out and inaccessible. 

Where the issue of running out the round without 10 Reactant is the result of intentionally killing enemies before they're Corrupted and intentionally spreading enemies out. An issue caused by player action. And if 10 Reactant wasn't dropped in the first place then shared drops don't do anything anyways.

 

It's only a solution for the situation in which there is enough Reactant but it's spread out too much. As it does nothing to stop players from killing enemies too fast which results in not enough in the first place.

Also the spread out Reactant issue is already solved via sticking together or at least choosing to tail another player. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

Yep, it's unfortunate.  You can use every tip and strategy listed in this thread, and sometimes you still can't get enough reactant.  The fact that most of the time you can get enough reactant doesn't make every round feel any less like Russian Roulette.  Fissures stress me out every time until I get that last reactant.

 

16 hours ago, latetier said:

after a year away, im stepping back into warframe and i find that the void fissure system is still utterly broken for endless missions like survival.

It's the same for non-endless missions as well.

[Trollocaustic]

20 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

The problem will never be fixed by increasing reactant drops because players are HELL BENT on being spread out over the whole survival mission, even if you increase the drop amount players will ALWAYS find a way to kill the enemies before they get corrupted and then come to the forums to complain.

Back in my early days with friends and clan mates in Discord, WE stayed in the same room/area or at least close enough that we could go through a door to get enough reactant, also to let the bot pathing of enemies come to us, we never had a problem with drop amounts to open a relics in survival.

I've been in pub squads in survival recently and it is a constant nightmare because some player/s will go to the other end of the map to kill maybe ten more enemies than the rest of us which can mess up the pathing and amount of enemies spawning where the other players are, I've had to run around the whole damn map to each little pocket of where each player is to get enough.

 

The Fix is simple: make the reactant a squad share when someone picks up a reactant the whole squad gets it.

Now imagine this same problem but applied to Steel Path Omnia Void Cascade missions.

[VENDOMINUS]

8 hours ago, trst said:

Except shared Reactant is a solution to an entirely different issue.

It was added to Railjack only because the mode is designed for players to split up and has areas you can't return to. Without shared Reactant there some players would be entirely unable to get their 10 while performing necessary tasks for the mission. So it's a solution to Reactant drops being too spread out and inaccessible. 

Where the issue of running out the round without 10 Reactant is the result of intentionally killing enemies before they're Corrupted and intentionally spreading enemies out. An issue caused by player action. And if 10 Reactant wasn't dropped in the first place then shared drops don't do anything anyways.

 

It's only a solution for the situation in which there is enough Reactant but it's spread out too much. As it does nothing to stop players from killing enemies too fast which results in not enough in the first place.

Also the spread out Reactant issue is already solved via sticking together or at least choosing to tail another player. 

You can control how fast you kill enemies, but you can't control how far away your teammates will go. Marking reactant is also something players rarely do. Shared Reactant is the only first step that would help fissures be less aggravating.

If that doesn't help then DE can consider making more corrupted enemies spawn and extending their invincibility time by a second so that they can actually drop their reactant.

And if that also isn't enough, then increasing the drops rates is the final resort they can use.

 

The problem is clear, the solution is simple. All we need is the community to support the idea, that fissures need to be improved.

[latetier]

23 hours ago, trst said:

Where the issue of running out the round without 10 Reactant is the result of intentionally killing enemies before they're Corrupted and intentionally spreading enemies out. An issue caused by player action.

It's only a solution for the situation in which there is enough Reactant but it's spread out too much. As it does nothing to stop players from killing enemies too fast which results in not enough in the first place.

1. the game design allows players to split up. we, players, did not design the game to let people split up. do you understand how that is a design issue?

2. players cannot control what other players do in the game. a game designer can. design the game so that players are forced to stick together, or if you refuse to do that, at least make it so players aren't punished for splitting up.

3. players killing too fast, once again, is a design issue. we, the player, did not code the game to allow us to instantly clear entire rooms of enemies. that was coded, and designed by a developer. do you understand?

Edited June 11 by latetier

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

On 2024-06-10 at 4:54 AM, Hayrack said:

At bare mininum, traces should be hard capped at 15 and 10 nearest of them always marked on a minimap for a player.

Seriously.  Why reactants aren't tagged outside the current room is just baffling.
Oh yes, let's tag ayatan stars from 10 rooms away, and whatever those ambulas things are from even further.  But reactant?  No no no!  That's completely irrelevant and players don't need to be notified of its existence once they leave the room.

[trst]

48 minutes ago, latetier said:

1. the game design allows players to split up. we, players, did not design the game to let people split up. do you understand how that is a design issue?

2. players cannot control what other players do in the game. a game designer can. design the game so that players are forced to stick together, or if you refuse to do that, at least make it so players aren't punished for splitting up.

3. players killing too fast, once again, is a design issue. we, the player, did not code the game to allow us to instantly clear entire rooms of enemies. that was coded, and designed by a developer. do you understand?

In this connect it's being allowed to split up at your own detriment. Letting players make mistakes or just play incorrectly is a thing in pretty much all games. If there is a design issue there it's the lack of incentive to play with others at all. Meanwhile with Railjack it is by intentional design as objectives require players at multiple places at the same time or you otherwise spend most of the mission backtracking.

No you can't control others but you can control your own actions. Choosing to tail another player or moving between them to get their stray Reactant lets you somewhat get around their mistake. Also it's both clear how it's beneficial for players to not split up and already punishes them for doing so. You can't idiot proof a system for everyone without literally forcing them to do nothing but the correct action.

And killing too fast is all the same issue. Can't stop players from playing wrong without literally forcing them to do otherwise.

[latetier]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Letting players make mistakes or just play incorrectly is a thing in pretty much all games.

we both know not getting enough traces to drop is not the same thing as mario falling down a pit to a game over screen. stop it.

[trst]

1 hour ago, latetier said:

we both know not getting enough traces to drop is not the same thing as mario falling down a pit to a game over screen. stop it.

No but missing a jump repeatedly and not learning from the mistake is. The game is punishing you for reason, figure out what that is and learn from it. 

If more players actually did this instead of playing missions on autopilot then this issue, and so many other player created problems, wouldn't exist. But since that's unlikely to ever happen the next best thing is to acknowledge that and use the agency you do have to work around both problems.

And if you want to hold out hope for DE addressing it I'd suggest actually posting feedback on the issue. DE has no reason to go sifting through the discussion forum when they have dedicated feedback forums.