Is the future of warframe more theme park updates like 1999?

[trst]

9 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

That's because Duviri and Railjack were meant to be way bigger expansions with how the team talked about it. Until, presumably every house of card of mechanics that he wanted to implement for it crumbled. Like from I recall, Duviri and Zariman were apparently supposed to be focused around base building. We even see a small part of it when they wanted to add in a Gardening Simulator in Duviri that was presumably going to be a larger part of the original idea. It was then dropped to a simple loot refresh every few hours. 

So now we're back to actual Core Warframe. Which is shooting, looting and Parkour. 

It's obvious that they are planning to ditch Warframe's core. Because, how did it take 7 years after Parkour 2.0 for them to add in a dedicated Parkour Game Mode in Void Flood.

Yeah I'mma need an actual source on any claims about "base building" in Duviri beyond the Dormizone. As this is the first I've ever heard such a claim. Also DE's lack of incentivizing the movement system is more attributable to their lack of updating old tiles and the communities response to anything "difficult", like how players complained about certain Jupiter rooms being "impossible" because they never learned how to properly move. While saying it's because they plan to ditch "core warframe" is some impressive tin foil hattery when we're talking about an update that was seven years ago while 99% of updates since have still been this supposed "core" warframe.

9 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

The funniest thing, besides Kahl, that these three were the biggest pieces of updates to Warframe at the time. Like I cannot understate just how Railjack, especially the ship portion (aka Not Warframe section) was such a masive huge focus for them that thinking about how they wasted so much resources on a game mode that they couldn't even release in a functioning status on release before taking a long ass holiday still pisses me off. 

Arch Wing had them adding whole nodes, redesigning Uranus to have those Shark Wing segments, talking about Modular Arch Wings that they eventually had to scrap because it was so far removed from the core that no one wantsd to actually play it. And the few times players did play it, Itztal was Nerfed and Amesha was almost on the chopping block due to Railjack.

And Duviri was this whole huge expansion with New War that eventually is now remembered only for the Warframe content. Even the new Decrees are geared to make you spend less time in Duviri, because I don't know how else to take "Here's a degree that makes it so that you gather twice as many resources "Other than "You can now cut your time spent in the open world by half."

Aite, not sure what the significance of any of this is meant to be.

Also Railjack is the reason they shifted their view on content reveals. They teased it too long ago, players complained non-stop, players started demanding that DE releases it early, DE does exactly what the players wanted because the optics were getting too bad. Also most bugs were fixed within the first two weeks of the mode being out with the remainder really just being related to co-op. Solo players had little to no issues with the mode after that.

[Kaiga]

1 hour ago, trst said:

For people who complain about things not aligning with the "core warframe experience" would someone attempt to define that? Cause this is really just a silly argument at this point.

Using the titular warframe, it's pretty simple. 

Duviri and especially TNW failed to live up to expectations because, most of the time you're not using the freakin warframe lol.

Archwing is bad maps and taking massive 360 degree staggers while moving way too fast, not in a warframe.

Conclave? Lunaro? Deader than doorknobs, because your warframe is gutted on usability.

And now this new update has you playing as excalib-arthur, again, mostly not as a warframe.

 

It's pretty simple mate, people play a game called warframe 'cause they like playing as a warframe.

If they wanted to play a flight sim or some third person melee combat stance breaker, they'd go play FTL or elden ring and not whatever half-assed thing DE spent all of 2019-2021 on.

[TARINunit9]

14 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Why so little love for the core warframe experience?

So what you consider the "core" of Warframe, I would not be surprised if the devs secretly believe it's pretty much finished. Wrapped up nicely and feature complete. Nothing else to add except maybe a couple more Warframes.

This is not to say they want to abandon it (like what Rexis was saying), but rather they have no idea what else to add to it... So instead they add side modes. That way they can keep working on Warframe without messing up the "core" Warframe 

[trst]

1 minute ago, Kaiga said:

Using the titular warframe, it's pretty simple. 

Duviri and especially TNW failed to live up to expectations because, most of the time you're not using the freakin warframe lol.

Archwing is bad maps and taking massive 360 degree staggers while moving way too fast, not in a warframe.

Conclave? Lunaro? Deader than doorknobs, because your warframe is gutted on usability.

And now this new update has you playing as excalib-arthur, again, mostly not as a warframe.

 

It's pretty simple mate, people play a game called warframe 'cause they like playing as a warframe.

If they wanted to play a flight sim or some third person melee combat stance breaker, they'd go play FTL or elden ring and not whatever half-assed thing DE spent all of 2019-2021 on.

Duviri literally has you use a frame for half of the mission, more so if you get the unlock to whip your frame out at any time.

So sure, Archwing isn't "core warframe".

Conclave still allows you to use the same frames though. All that's limited is movement, mods, and some gear. Also I'm lump Lunaro into the same realm as Flappy Zephy and FrameFighter, it's just a minigame.

Except the Protoframes, as we saw from Arthur, have the exact same movement, abilities, and gameplay? The only thing we don't know about is how upgrades work like if we'll be able to mod them. 1999 is literally "core" warframe as you're literally using a warframe with a different skin.

[Helverin]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Kaiga:

Using the titular warframe, it's pretty simple. 

Duviri and especially TNW failed to live up to expectations because, most of the time you're not using the freakin warframe lol.

Archwing is bad maps and taking massive 360 degree staggers while moving way too fast, not in a warframe.

Conclave? Lunaro? Deader than doorknobs, because your warframe is gutted on usability.

And now this new update has you playing as excalib-arthur, again, mostly not as a warframe.

 

It's pretty simple mate, people play a game called warframe 'cause they like playing as a warframe.

If they wanted to play a flight sim or some third person melee combat stance breaker, they'd go play FTL or elden ring and not whatever half-assed thing DE spent all of 2019-2021 on.

Maybe you should decide what you want to discuss: the quality of the updates or core warframe? 

And for what reasons people play is best left for them to decide.

[(XBOX)Annemi]

I've kept Warframe as a side game to my main games ESO and Destiny 2, but it has slowly inched its way up to beeing a main game for me during the years of these "content islands". It took me years to semi/solo complete the entire starchart to get access to everything in the game, and I absolutely LOVE the content drops. I just don't play this game every day of my life, and I only do the stuff I like and so far its been in moderation. I would love more "content islands" because they are fun and they give me the opportunity to go play something else and come back to a new update that doesn't involve the same thing I left. But that's just me. I had a bad experience with Destiny 2 because that game really burnt me out and I'm never going back to it, played almost every day for 9 years, and I'm finally free of that second job it became. Warframe feels more like you can come back after months not playing and everything is still there waiting for you, so not as much FOMO as other live service games. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

If I had to guess, its because the "core Warframe experience" depending on what one means, is always already there. New updates will come, new things will be added, but picking a Warframe, a few weapons, and then going into an Exterminate or Survival and killing Corpus or Grineer will always be there. The issue, is that some people are really really bad at being able to consider other peoples perspectives beyond their own. Which I don't mean in a judgemental way either, someone having a preference and personal perspective, and sticking to that and prioritising that over others, thats fine... For example, there is a different game developer and the relationship they have with their publisher, and how its influenced the direction of some of their games... I'm personally a bit critical of that. Part is just my personal preference, for what I think there good games, are and how. 

DE is also the kind of company, and or it has people within it that communicate with players/consumers a lot. One thing they have discovered is that a lot of players really enjoyed, resonated and desired more story content. There are going to be Warframe players from 2013 who might not care about all that though, and thats totally fair, but the game has grown. Not only that, but the game is really dependent on new updates, and I think some people don't realise that stuff they might personally consider as "abandoned" already may have served one of its original purposes in attracting returning and new players. 

People also then get needlessly defensive and competitive over their own preferences as well, and again, having preferences is fine, but its different from the sort of attitude and perspective needed as far as introducing updates and content for the game. Like personally, I think Warframe did/does already have enough tools to tell interesting and great stories with established characters, factions and lore as well, but... I also can generally guess that 1999 will probably draw in a lot of returning and new players, because the coverage DE will get from Tokyo Game Show, Gamescon and Game Awards and having Arthur, Aoi, and the other Protoframes existing. Many of us, think Warrame designs are already captivating and interesting, but we aren't everyone. 

Then again regardless, "core Warframe" will still always be there, think about how much stuff is usually happening around that? Status reworks, augments, Warframe reworks and light rework, new types of weapons guns, 1999 weapons, Incarnons, new Lich types, new game modes, tile sets. A lot of new update stuff is often about hyper, shiny new stuff and attracting lapsed players, new players, and often thats successful, and why/how playerbase fluctuates. Often though many of those players may get looped into returning for other reasons, like the "core Warframe experience" but not all, its complicated/ Then also consider the role of cosmetics though. A lot of updates often feature new cosmetics as a part of them. For some people who only care about the gameplay, why? Well, its a big way the game makes money, is why. Then for some other people customisation is "core Warframe".

TL;DR version. A lot of "new" stuff is basically there to attract certain people. If you aren't personally attracted, then its not trying to actually attract you necessarily Hopefully something else the game already offers has attracted you. The same way some people prefer meat and potatoes every day, and some people rather have a really sweet dessert in the weekend, and some will like both. Certain things in updates are like the sweet dessert to try and attract those people, but the solid normal meal is still there as well. Some desserts aren't meant for everyday, and they aren't there to replace the other meals either. 

[4thBro]

20 hours ago, Sojufueled said:

We just had a big star chart update with Jade Shadows. Before that was Whispers in the Walls. I feel like your argument overlooks the last 2 years of Warframe.

Damn. So those parlor tricks DO work on some people.

[Alpha_Tango]

Theme park it is.

Only thing is they are one and done activities. Unless nightwave requires me to fish, k-drive, kill an Oroworm, visit Acrithis, steal an enemy ship or kill three Necramechs etc. I never had the urge to come back to them "park attractions" again. They all did add something useful to our core warframe so not at all bad. It's just something Nora occasionally reminds you to visit to enjoy again. Anything RJ, Duviri, the innards of Deimos for instance are alien worlds to me now. But what other game boast such variety these days and is still fairly chugging along and goes back on track like the WF tour around train?

The Kahl booth btw, stay away from it. I also heard about Conclave but never bothered to check, one of these days maybe.

P.S. I love EDA though, still Deimos but the RNG rollercoaster that loops around three times!

Edited July 24 by Alpha_Tango

[Xylena_Lazarow]

17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

but rather they have no idea what else to add to it

New tilesets? New enemies? More minibosses? Platinum Path? Hell they could add normal missions against hordes of Sentients on the ship tileset they never used, give us the New War we all wanted and never got. If they "don't know" then hire some devs who do? Reinventing the wheel has gotten them nowhere. Pokemon is the world's largest media franchise, and has gotten there by releasing the same game for 3 decades. There's over a thousand mons, there's nothing stopping devs from making a thousand Warframes, core Warframe tilesets, variants of Grineer...

Edited July 24 by Xylena_Lazarow

[Corvid]

Just now, Xylena_Lazarow said:

New tilesets? New enemies? More minibosses?

All things that we've already been getting?

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

All things that we've already been getting?

Yeah it's almost like companies succeed when they give their customers what they want. Zariman update, Disruption mission type, The Circuit, the Lv200 Lua mission with the easy Voruna grind... all successful and beloved core Warframe experiences from the past few years. Meanwhile, every time they try to reinvent the wheel with spaceship sims or whatever the hell Kahl was, they end up tearing the player base in half, even tearing their own dev team in half in the case of Failjack and Steve's departure.

If I walk into Burger King and order a burger, but they give me a slice of pizza and tell me that it's a burger... that's not gonna fly. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with pizza, but there's good reason we have the term "bait and switch" for this kind of thing. Claiming there is no "core Warframe" is disingenuous. The alternate charts for alternate game modes feel like I'm leaving one theme park to drive my car to another.

Edited July 24 by Xylena_Lazarow

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

2 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

New tilesets? New enemies? More minibosses? Platinum Path? Hell they could add normal missions against hordes of Sentients on the ship tileset they never used, give us the New War we all wanted and never got. If they "don't know" then hire some devs who do? Reinventing the wheel has gotten them nowhere. Pokemon is the world's largest media franchise, and has gotten there by releasing the same game for 3 decades. There's over a thousand mons, there's nothing stopping devs from making a thousand Warframes, core Warframe tilesets, variants of Grineer...

My ideal Warframe would have unique tilesets for every planet, and more enemies for all factions. With how elemental weaknesses work now, I also want more sub-factions within the major factions so we have even more variety. And better boss fights, instead of... The Sergeant.

There is a lot DE can do to improve core Warframe. I got frustrated and quit the game for years because it felt like instead of doing that, they were preoccupied with new side-content that had nothing to do with anything while ignoring the fundamental problems of the game. Only now that I've come back this year does it feel like they're finally, actually tackling these issues and improving/expanding on the parts of the game that matter most.

[Aerikx]

So you want them to just rinse and repeat the star chart?

Here's a new planet with all the same missions you've been playing for the past 10 years. 

Even if the tileset is brand new that gets old in no time. Deadlock Protocol & The Jovian Complex come to mind.

Outside of the Granum Void, and Ropoloyst the extreme majority of those updates, while very nice, and very beautiful got old and/or went ignored the day/week of release. 

DE needs to keep it fresh and give us stuff to do. And while some dislike the more content island feel, that's just MMOs in general. 

Just imagine if Duviri, Railjack, Sanctuary Onslaught, and Liches were all tied together. *Shudders*

Just that thought gives mobile gacha game vibes. Where you gotta go to 8 different places and grind for crap to unlock 1 thing so you start to use a character or upgrade them 1 time. 

Like...

Remember when the top complaint (still kind of is valid today though...) was that every update just added more mobile defense or defense missions?

[Xylena_Lazarow]

48 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Here's a new planet with all the same missions you've been playing for the past 10 years. 

That's the popular content. Void Fissures, Bounties, Sorties, etc the stuff that makes up Core Warframe. That's what people log in for, not Kahl.

[OniDax]

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

So what you consider the "core" of Warframe, I would not be surprised if the devs secretly believe it's pretty much finished. Wrapped up nicely and feature complete. Nothing else to add except maybe a couple more Warframes.

This is not to say they want to abandon it (like what Rexis was saying), but rather they have no idea what else to add to it... So instead they add side modes. That way they can keep working on Warframe without messing up the "core" Warframe 

They don't need to add more stuff to it. They need to improve the core gameplay mechanics, enemy behavior, sound design, map design. Non-parkour movement needs to be improved to be less sliding around, more naturally human-like and more grounded (IK-based animations, proper feet adjustments when changing direction) while maintaining Warframe's current speed. Vehicle movement should also be less floaty, with more natural changes in direction. Enemies need a rework to their behavior so that they are more responsive and start sprinting and crouching. That would increase the pace of combat. Gun holding, aiming, and shooting animations could be improved so that the combat is more immersive. Characters should bring their guns up higher, closer to their heads, as if they're aiming with their weapons. Camera angles need to be adjusted, particularly when crouch walking, so that the character doesn't block too much of the view. Camera adjustments need to be made to some emotes as well.

Sound design could be improved as well to be more dynamic. Enemies could have more contextual voice lines, responding to player actions the way enemies do in games like The Division 2.

More tile sets could get reworks as well. I disagree with recent DE comments stating tilesets like Europa only need a lighting update. So much geometry clips and is low texture quality. And the lighting changes to the Orbiter and Sanctum would be terrible across the entire game, as it breaks shaders in several places, desaturates the colors, and looks low contrast.

These are just some ways the core gameplay experience could be improved without adding something new to it.

Edited July 24 by OniDax

[trst]

53 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

That's the popular content. Void Fissures, Bounties, Sorties, etc the stuff that makes up Core Warframe. That's what people log in for, not Kahl.

You literally can't be more wrong. 

What players actually log in for is new content. And that "popular content" is only logged in for when there's something new to be gotten. The only things keeping that content relevant is when DE reuses those mission types for a new area, if one happens to be a meta farm spot for some universal resource, and Primes.

This is plainly observed by player count trends where counts spike for an update, quickly drop off, and continue to drop until the next update comes along. And even with Fissures there's the very noticeable spike in activity when new Primes drop and a noticeable drop within a week or two. 

 

Players still logged in for Kahl. A trend that continued until players finished that farm. Now it sees little engagement beyond new players since DE removed its only evergreen reward. Something also observable in all content that has finite reasons to be farmed.

 

DE continuing to "reinvent the wheel" has been a working strategy for ten years. Given the game's continued success and growth there's no reason for them to stop doing that.

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-07-22 at 9:22 PM, Kaiga said:

So 1999 is going to be another update to leave the star chart from, and go ride something that has little to no interaction with where 80% of the game is played.

Another tab like duviri. 

Another tab like railjack. 

So now this is tab #3 on our nav menu, that takes you away from the sol system. 

Why so little love for the core warframe experience? Why try to totally reinvent the warframe experience every update (and then abandon it, like railjack/duviri), instead of just, I dunno, tell more stories with all the interesting and memorable characters we already have in the sol system?

Why is it always the same names that  bring pessimism and negativity to anything the game does? It's like you guys ARE the content island. 

The proto frames fight exactly like the warframes, the nodes system looked similar and....you know what, this is just stupid. This game has grown and thrived off of progressive movement, risk taking and fantastic storytelling. There is absolutely no reason to not expand the game and let us step away from the traditional fighting style.

DE's only issue is that they need about 5x the dev staff, split into core divisions, to expand all parts of the game they way they want. Until that happens, there's no way they can continue to tell the chapter of the story AND constantly refresh the old at the same time, every time. 

[Kaiga]

4 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Why is it always the same names that  bring pessimism and negativity to anything the game does? It's like you guys ARE the content island. 

Ah yes Commander Contrarian has arrived to tell me why my personal opinions are wrong and close down criticism of developer decisions. 

... you're not getting into the design council mate, but good effort.

4 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

This game has grown and thrived off of progressive movement, risk taking and fantastic storytelling.

Ah yes, that explains why TNW was widely panned at release and failed to live up to the hype, railjack is dead content, and duviri was abandoned outside the circuit, which also is the least favorite slog of everyone i talk to that plays. 

Look mate, the players didn't make all these decisions or release these things they way that they were. You're acting like this is somehow the fault of the people complaining, and not, I dunno, the questionable decisions and design choices?

The solution is to not make bad decisions to begin with. Of course, the dim bulb counterarguement is that people will complain about everything regardless (so why make anything at that point, right?) but that is equally ridiculous.

Whispers in the walls, for example, had almost zero design complaints and was pretty universally acclaimed as a good update, and the feedback only turned negative after they fumbled the later Dante nerfs and were inconsistent on, again, design.

It's not that hard, they've done it before with plenty of good updates and cool things added to the game, without needing to reinvent the wheel every update.

Edited July 24 by Kaiga

[MaunoMat0]

You rather have another mission where you can use your absolutely overpowered one shotting warframe?

As much as I was frustrated with the story missions where none of the progress I made in the main game had any impact on the DPS I did or tank, I can't see them working with the absolutely broken builds we have in the game, I personally believe it's on purpose and it's a good thing.

The broken builds have a place and even necessary in some game modes, story mode isn't one of them.
 

[_Eclips3_]

On 2024-07-23 at 5:22 AM, Kaiga said:

So 1999 is going to be another update to leave the star chart from, and go ride something that has little to no interaction with where 80% of the game is played.

Another tab like duviri. 

Another tab like railjack. 

So now this is tab #3 on our nav menu, that takes you away from the sol system. 

Why so little love for the core warframe experience? Why try to totally reinvent the warframe experience every update (and then abandon it, like railjack/duviri), instead of just, I dunno, tell more stories with all the interesting and memorable characters we already have in the sol system?

Agreed. a better idea would be to release a new solar system to complete like the sentient TAU system where there's like 2 other factions defending themselves from sentient assimilation, or maybe a faction that joined sides after a stalemate or maybe even made a deal to get better conditions during their service. So many ideas but in the end we'll get another generic content island.

Edited July 24 by _Eclips3_

[Valfar_de]

To make it short, I hope not. Kahl and Duviri (except for the Circuit) are really boring, while 99 looks a little cheap and shallow with "hot" women and motorcycles, I mean - really ? For me it is just not the warframe atmosphere, instead reminds me of dumb TV shows/personality disorders in "Reality TV" or in "social" media.

Edited July 24 by Valfar_de
(except for the Circuit)

[Grekkatarq]

I am also playing this game for a while and when I started basically the core gameplay was a slow paced looter shooter with small amount of parkour. Since the game improved, new items and maps were added, most systems in game under a 2-3 year was replaced or altered. For me the core gameplay means the corridor style looting and shooting while doing missions. Don't get me wrong I do no have problems with the new type of modes, story type addons and open worlds because some are enjoyable and you can repeat is many times. Some player might want entirely new type of content but each content have a life time and how much entertainment you can get from it. I still to this day playing the very first missions, replaying some stuff when need rescurces but when you replay these you can feel it's a bit dated. I like the idea they add new content for the different gameplays and improve time to time the altered core gameplay but what I would wish to see is some expand on the very early phase of the game.

 

Most old maps are aging and could get some facelift, some new planets or other objects could be added for example Titan as a separate place, all the Galilean moons as an own place this alone could add 50-60 plus node to the game and they could get some sub factions or their own tiles. Some of the old maps like the Infested ones (not Deimos), Eris, Europa, Mars, Earth (I know it was facelifted but it could be expanded with more biomes) and some others like old Venus to match with Fortuna in style and improve the map looks. 

 

Some weapon could get another step of stat revisit or make them tier items to better fit to the content. Incarnon is a nice addition but it's generally just adds more power creep beyond the already overcreep. They could add more sentinels, more breeds of kubrows - kavats any other new type of pet. They could improve the Archwing experience also expand the maps maybe alter it to feel like real space. They could expand the plains to fit in size and tasks with Vallis and maybe they could add a dungeon crawler system to the old corridor style maps. New rooms and some new random event could be added during missions to enchance the experience and make it pleasant to revisit the old tiles as well. Surely most players wants to get out of it as fast as possible because they need some fine tune to make them more enjoyable also add better rewards to help the players a bit. The general pacing of the game is slow without boosters but providing booster packs of better rewards for be better at aim could add some boost too.

 

Also the speed of warframes at 1.0 speed feels like they have lung problems and they are slow without parkour. It could be a bit better if the speed feels more natural and faster. There are already many type of moves what the players does not use like back flips, side flips, back jump etc. Some more mission dedicated to parkour would be nice to see. Also some old content what was cut like Dark Sector - Solar arrays capture even Trials could get a revisit in different form. 

 

Derelict and Void have nice tiles but they are needs more variety so I would improve them. Another thing what I would add is a better interaction with object, adding a real sit animation, sleep on the ground or something small like this. It's not a priority but could enchance the gameplay.

 

Just few ideas what I think would be good but these are not priorities right now but maybe if there are options for vote to different ideas maybe the design council players could vote for it and hope they are listened. 

 

tldr - I am not against any new items just feel this kind of content could get some love. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

7 hours ago, trst said:

Now it sees little engagement beyond new players since DE removed its only evergreen reward.

Yeah wonder why DE did that. Wonder why DE quietly stopped supporting Kahl, same way they quietly stopped supporting Railjack. Circuit is still seeing content added. There's been new Void Fissures added. Steel Path Bounties added. DE supports these because people play them. They quietly abandon things that do not get played.

[trst]

18 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Yeah wonder why DE did that. Wonder why DE quietly stopped supporting Kahl, same way they quietly stopped supporting Railjack. Circuit is still seeing content added. There's been new Void Fissures added. Steel Path Bounties added. DE supports these because people play them. They quietly abandon things that do not get played.

And absolutely none of that has anything to do with "what players log in for".

Also "stopped supporting Railjack"? Railjack Revisited, Corpus additions, Lich integration, Scarlet Spear, Orphix Venom/Missions, Void Storms, and soon Infested Liches (which may or may not include more content). In regards to branches of content Railjack has seen just as much, if not more, support as things like the open worlds.