how to prevent slamkong abuse without nerfing Cloudwalker or Melee Influence

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb sunderthefirmament:

What do you think?

 

the whole thing is just embarrassing. they have already ruined warframe to the core. the first skill has been a joke for many years. the 3rd is not needed at all and the 4th skill is even more pointless than the first skill.

and where are all the imba slam wukongs? i have been playing every day for many years (since 2013 actually) and i have only seen a wukong like that ONCE! and that was a group for quick sp relic earth ext runs. i was with volt/wukong, 2 titanias and 1 slam wukong.

so where did you get the info about "prevent slamkong abuse"??? because that sounds so embarrassing and ridiculous. especially the last word. is wukong back at the top of the game statistics? then it's clear. so it's about lies again

vor 38 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

So uhm you want to nerf everyone that uses slam since a single specific setup in one specific region does it slightly better? And you go an compare it with Maiming Strike that was universal?

Plus basing it on one-off missions like exterminate.

Not to mention there are few slam weapons aswell with any particular range benefit. Sancti Magistar and Titron have the furthest reach, but only Sancti Magistar has reliable access to it since it is passive. Full on slam builds with Titron are tedius and inconsistant with building charges, since direct kills from slams do not build charges. And enemies within the regular slam range tends to die to the slam. And we already have regular melee that can reach as far or further than baseline slams and heavy slams.

Actually, the mele warframes do it much better. Above all, many have so much tank or even overguard that more sprint mods are possible. Mele damage is also increased significantly thanks to purple shards. And at Wukong I do have to take care of energy management.
or even volt without def mods, enough range, max str for 1st skill buff + gloom aura and melee influence build. He outruns every slam wukong and can't die at all.

and the world doesn't revolve around ext missions. there is much more content.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Agall:

Don't need to spam slamming to make melee powerful. You could make the same argument against stance interrupting with Slash Dash and some sort of melee influence build, like with [Carving Mantis]'s forward block. 

This just feels like you needed something to complain about so this is what you went with, unlike a real problem.

I don't see any problem with that at all too. There are dozens of much better builds. But I'm waiting for his answer - whether it's a real statement from the company.

Edited August 23 by Venus-Venera

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

This is the second time I've heard about slam wukong, and I've never seen it once. I'm not saying you're lying, I just don't see the issue...literally.

[Waeleto]

Second time i hear about slam wukong (the first being the "please end the plague of wukong" reddit post iykyk) and i have NEVER seen one and i play A LOT so i'm gonna say that's far from an issue that needs a nerf

[sunderthefirmament]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

This is the second time I've heard about slam wukong, and I've never seen it once. I'm not saying you're lying, I just don't see the issue...literally.

 

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

Second time i hear about slam wukong (the first being the "please end the plague of wukong" reddit post iykyk) and i have NEVER seen one and i play A LOT so i'm gonna say that's far from an issue that needs a nerf

 

It's not ubiquitous, and I'm not claiming I'm seeing them in every mission.  I definitely notice them when they're there, though.  And they are so effective that I'm predicting an eventual nerf, which is why I made this thread.

 

To those that aren't ever seeing them, do you play typically play Steel Path?  Do you regularly run fissures and incursions?  That's where I see them the most, but then again that's basically the only content I play where they would feasibly appear.  I solo Netracells or play them with a friend.  And EDA's randomized gear incentives keep them from appearing there, I suppose.

[sunderthefirmament]

7 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

so where did you get the info about "prevent slamkong abuse"??? because that sounds so embarrassing and ridiculous. especially the last word. is wukong back at the top of the game statistics? then it's clear. so it's about lies again

Hey Venus-Venera, this is what I was talking about in our last interaction where you seem to come off really aggressive and hostile in your posts.  Specifically, the words "embarrassing," "ridiculous," and "lies," could be construed as hostile.  You might disagree, but if you're finding that people's responses to you have a tendency to escalate in defensiveness and aggression, it might be worthwhile to consider your word choice more thoroughly.

 

Speaking of word choice, I used the word "prevent" in my thread title because I worry that this will become more prevalent than it currently is.  So no, it's not at the top of the usage charts.  But it seems so effective that I think it has the potential to become much more popular than it currently is.  If I thought it was currently a massive issue and I was encountering a slamkong in every mission, I would have used a different word than "prevent."

[Tiltskillet]

I don't know anything about the Wukong slam strategy, although I did see a few Wukongs with hammers for the first time this week.  If Influence is a critical part of the combo, it's easy to imagine it getting nerfed.  Perhaps one of the properties it has that was never applied in the arcane description.  One example that comes to mind is its ability to go through walls.

Which, as it happens, was the first way Meme Strike got indirectly nerfed.   It was a general melee nerf of course, although the slide spam was specifically called out by DE.  Anyway it would be sort of on point for DE to do something similar again, where there's collateral damage to builds that have nothing to do with slamkong.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb sunderthefirmament:

Hey Venus-Venera, this is what I was talking about in our last interaction where you seem to come off really aggressive and hostile in your posts.  Specifically, the words "embarrassing," "ridiculous," and "lies," could be construed as hostile.  You might disagree, but if you're finding that people's responses to you have a tendency to escalate in defensiveness and aggression, it might be worthwhile to consider your word choice more thoroughly.

 

Speaking of word choice, I used the word "prevent" in my thread title because I worry that this will become more prevalent than it currently is.  So no, it's not at the top of the usage charts.  But it seems so effective that I think it has the potential to become much more popular than it currently is.  If I thought it was currently a massive issue and I was encountering a slamkong in every mission, I would have used a different word than "prevent."

Any criticism can be perceived as aggressive. But you thought that yourself. And things have to be called by their correct names and not by any imaginary terms, because then the content of the message is completely lost.
Also, as you can see, I never get personal, unlike you. And I talk about the content of the topic and not about the authors and their characteristics.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

20 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know anything about the Wukong slam strategy, although I did see a few Wukongs with hammers for the first time this week.  If Influence is a critical part of the combo, it's easy to imagine it getting nerfed.

Influence is sort of inconsequential to the Slamkong. Melee attacking out of Cloudwalker automatically transitions into a slam attack. Load the Wukong with either red or purple shards for melee crit damage as well as Nira's set mods. Equip Magistar Incarnon (rather than Sancti Magistar. Sancti has less crit damage than standard Magistar) since it has an 18m slam radius and boosts melee crit damage. Influence just heightens the devistation.

Begin mission...2, E, 2, E, 2, E.....

As someone who appreciates maximum efficiency and effort from their squatemates...it's a sight to behold.

Edited August 23 by (PSN)Magician_NG

[Agall]

25 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

it's not at the top of the usage charts.  But it seems so effective that I think it has the potential to become much more popular than it currently is.  

And if it does, then DE will likely fun police it like they usually do.

I say the most effective way to prevent this from occurring is to buff Radial Javelin, maybe make it a pseudo-exalted. 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

And if it does, then DE will likely fun police it like they usually do.

I say the most effective way to prevent this from occurring is to buff Radial Javelin, maybe make it a pseudo-exalted. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would you happen to be an Excalibur fan/main?  I don't know.  Something about your comments leads me to believe you might have an affinity for him.

_{And off topic, but pseudo-exalteds are icky, so I hope that Radial Javelin gets a different sort of buff.}

[Agall]

1 minute ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would you happen to be an Excalibur fan/main?  I don't know.  Something about your comments leads me to believe you might have an affinity for him.

_{And off topic, but pseudo-exalteds are icky, so I hope that Radial Javelin gets a different sort of buff.}

I may be a fan of Excalibur, I may not be, who's to say. 

Discussions around whether or not a specific build on another Warframe is too powerful can be quelched by making the starter Warframe everyone has (including a 'prime' version as a quest reward) more viable. In this case, buffing Radial Javelin in a way that makes it an effective AoE past level 25 enemies.

Sure, pseudo-exalted might not be the pick by everyone, but considering he already has Slash Dash and an Exalted Weapon, why not give him another?

The other consideration would be to just make it scale directly off Exalted Blade, but DE probably know the best way to buff it, my suggestion is designed to be simple to just give it the same damage amplification that Slash Dash already has (including combo multiplier damage scaling). 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Agall:

And if it does, then DE will likely fun police it like they usually do.

I say the most effective way to prevent this from occurring is to buff Radial Javelin, maybe make it a pseudo-exalted. 

and I still haven't received an answer from him as to whether it is an official statement from the company. (his claim in the title.)

As long as exalted weapons don't have an arcane slot, they don't make much sense. Even with primed reach, they don't have the performance (kills per time) of normal weapons.
And I've been playing with exalted umbra for a long time, but it's too poor in performance compared to mele warframes like kullervo.

 

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

and I still haven't received an answer from him as to whether it is an official statement from the company. (his claim in the title.)

There is nothing in the title saying that.  There's nothing in the OP saying that.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Tiltskillet:

There is nothing in the title saying that.  There's nothing in the OP saying that.

If it is just his claim, then it would first have to be clarified where that is the case. Because where are all these slam wokungs? If I look at the second page here, then I am not the only one who does not see any slam wukongs in the game.
Also, what does he mean by "abuse"?

[DrivaMain]

Currently, Slamkong spammer are widespread in the Asia region. I implore anyone who view the “Slamkong spammers” as a rare phenomenon to do some missions there.

Sure it’s only running rampant there, but I am sure it will only be a matter of time before players in other region took notice and try it out themselves. 

Another reason why it’s not to the reach of “Zarr Apocalypse” level of ridiculousness is because the “Big Shot” Warframe creators aren’t posting about it.

[Agall]

19 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

and I still haven't received an answer from him as to whether it is an official statement from the company. (his claim in the title.)

As long as exalted weapons don't have an arcane slot, they don't make much sense. Even with primed reach, they don't have the performance (kills per time) of normal weapons.
And I've been playing with exalted umbra for a long time, but it's too poor in performance compared to mele warframes like kullervo.

 

Excalibur is the best melee Warframe, hands down. If Wrathful Advance wasn't the subsume ability, it wouldn't be the case, but Wrathful Advance, 4-5 Tau Violet CD shards, [Furious Javelin], Slash Dash, and an Exalted weapon has no contest from the likes of Kullervo's kit. The build I run can use just Exalted Blade or slot in any melee weapon and make it at minimum SP viable.

I've mained Excalibur since 2013, have a love hate relationship with Exalted Blade (I still miss super jump). Exalted Blade has its place and utility and I've tested it extensively before and after the latest status rework.

[Chromatic Blade] is simply not worth it, since Exalted Blade can kill just fine without needing status procs. In this setup, it lets me use [Surging Dash] and [Furious Javelin] instead while having an extremely powerful Toxin only Exalted Blade. If you had to choose a setup for [Chromatic Blade] though, blast only is the most effective/versatile.

I subsume off Radial Blind, prior to the status rework it was Radial Javelin. The status rework made Toxin Exalted Blade just as effective as Heat with [Archon Vitality] which freed up a mod slot for a second augment. [Furious Javelin] is too good to pass up on when there's effectively a free mod slot in the build. Status rework made Electric damage more effective which also means [Archon Stretch] can be procced very easily with a [Melee Influence] built melee (it doesn't need to be an incarnon with +SC% to proc it with Slash Dash, probably a bug, but its a thing).

Even with an absolutely absurd Hate or Dual Ichor Incarnon build, Exalted Blade has its place and utility. Sometimes it helps bypass damage attenuation on enemies, sometimes its necessary to kill boss type enemies in a scenario when you reach them with no combo counter (since Unairu or Vazarin is literally required for Excalibur to participate in SP, especially in a melee only setup).

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb DrivaMain:

Currently, Slamkong spammer are widespread in the Asia region. I implore anyone who view the “Slamkong spammers” as a rare phenomenon to do some missions there.

Sure it’s only running rampant there, but I am sure it will only be a matter of time before players in other region took notice and try it out themselves. 

Another reason why it’s not to the reach of “Zarr Apocalypse” level of ridiculousness is because the “Big Shot” Warframe creators aren’t posting about it.

If the build was that good, then that would be the case here too. Because hype YouTubers make their money with things like that.

Besides, Asians have a completely different mentality. We know what's going on in their countries. Something like that wouldn't be possible in Europe/US.

And what you're claiming still needs to be proven.

[PrideB4TheFall]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Just delete WuClone already.

Should have thought of that a long time ago, in a galaxy very, very close.

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Both feature a single melee attack being used on repeat, largely ignoring the rest of the melee weapon's animations and effects in favor of maximizing area damage.

...

Just like every heavy attack build out there. This is a pretty weak argument, nor are slams Wukong exclusive.

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

What do you think?

That's this community's perception is off.

• I have never seen a Slamkong in NA, and all this post does is make it self fulfilling prophesy.
• Most of the community does not know where the power ceiling in this game is. Places like Exterminate, Netracells, etc... where is build it touted as being so good, all got worse times than what I was already using.
• The only mission type I've come across where it's an improvement is in 1 of the 2 mission types I was already using Wukong in.
• This build heavily relies on a bug to preform at its max.
  • Hint: There's a reason almost all showcases of this build are against factions with shields.

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

My biggest complaint about Maiming Strike when it was popular was how stupid it made the game look.

This is not Maiming Strike. Melee attacks no longer go through walls, and Influence is does not work well on attacks that do one big hit.

[LRonHoover]

I actually read and at least tried to comprehend the OP so I know you're not actually about getting stuff nerfed and you feel that the hammer is for sure coming and would like to direct it in an intelligent manner...

 

Kind of a rough thread because there's no change that people are going to actually enjoy, beyond those who revel in seeing somebody else who feels that they have had some thing taken away.

 

Personally I hope that DE doesn't do anything, what's the point? So they stop slamming, and what, turn in the vague direction of enemies and press 1 button with a torrid instead of pressing a few buttons with a hammer?

 

I think that if the Asian servers are full of Wukong, it's because Wukong is a major and beloved character in a well known ip there. They're probably doing the slam stuff because it works right now, and when that tactic falls out of favour, they will absolutely find some other way to use Wukong that annoys the people who want to get annoyed.

Like for example ape aficionados may perhaps take advantage of the fact that Wukong can use fire-walker from cloud-walker, and if they want to they can even colour it brown so that all haters are forced to huff their monkey-musk all day every day.

I don't think that a god-punching monkey can be made unlovable. I think that the perpetually perturbed will continue to seethe no matter what changes DE does or doesn't make, and people from the part of the world that Wukong is popular in will probably continue to inordinately enjoy that frame come hell or high water.

 

 

 

 

[sunderthefirmament]

12 minutes ago, LRonHoover said:

I actually read and at least tried to comprehend the OP so I know you're not actually about getting stuff nerfed and you feel that the hammer is for sure coming and would like to direct it in an intelligent manner...

Thanks for that!  A lot of people seem to think that I'm begging for a nerf to slamkong and/or that I'm seeing them in every single mission on the North American region.  Neither are true!  In fact, I ran about 20 Steel Path exterminate fissures earlier today, and only encountered two.

 

19 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

..

Just like every heavy attack build out there. This is a pretty weak argument, nor are slams Wukong exclusive.

Fair, but I interpret the inclusion of Tennokai as DE realizing that their big changes to melee missed their mark, if their mark was getting us to build up and then spend combo.  I don't think DE loves spammy builds, and I see slamkong as a pretty spammy build.

 

21 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I have never seen a Slamkong in NA, and all this post does is make it self fulfilling prophesy.

I seriously doubt I have that power.  I'm just commenting on what I perceive to be a subtly growing trend.  I admit I could be completely wrong.  Honestly, I hope I am.

 

I am hoping you're right though, especially when you point out how it's different from Maiming Strike.  When DE nerfed Maiming Strike, I welcomed it, but it completely buried the mod.  It's not worth the slot now.  Functionally dead mods are to be expected in a game with this many mods to choose from, but it's still a little sad when it happens.

[Voltage]

I can see why Slam Wukong is annoying when you're behind them, but there are faster setups honestly. A Saryn/Mirage with Ocucor can cook a tile way faster than the clunky recast and spam of Cloudwalker + Slam Attacks.

The "problem" is a region specific fixation on certain gameplay. That extends past Wukong Slam and is just a cultural flavor of gameplay. There's nothing you can really fix about that.

Edited August 24 by Voltage

[KitMeHarder]

20 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Fair, but I interpret the inclusion of Tennokai as DE realizing that their big changes to melee missed their mark, if their mark was getting us to build up and then spend combo.

And what's the inclusion of Crescendo tell you? You can go back and forth on stuff like this all day in this game, that's just the nature of it.

In the same way I don't really agree with your reasoning as to why Tennokai was added. I could say people hated the way the new incarnon weapons forced you to lose combo, so DE added a way to build around it. It just so happened to also be a benefit for the other melees in that game. (Plus, we were promised "beast mode" in 2019 in the second half of melee 3.0, but this is probably what it's been boiled down to.)

20 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I seriously doubt I have that power.

I'm not saying you have that power, but I am saying you're playing your part. "Let sleeping dogs lie".

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The solution is to use recruit, not use said tactic, and carry on.

[sunderthefirmament]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The solution is to use recruit, not use said tactic, and carry on.

Nowhere in my post did I say I was having trouble with slamkongs or trying to avoid them, but this is certainly good advice for, say, Netracells I guess. So… thanks?