Caliban's Passive still sucks.

[Kaiga]

-Not affected by mods
-No gain from damage over time
-Useless if adaptation is equipped/doesn't stack
-Still get hit by the remaining 2/3rds of damage types per attack.

So he basically has no passive if one of the most important mods in the game (Adaptation) is run by him or his teammates.

I really thought they'd address that pretty glaring oversight, but no, "Caliban’s Passive is virtually unchanged"
Pablo cooked on everything else though, this just seems like a pretty obvious space for improvement.

[(PSN)Cephalon_Scarlet]

How are you so quick to judge something you have not even played yet? Like the update isn't even out yet.

[Kaiga]

Because they've directly stated they aren't changing it, aside from the stack gain while invul, which doesn't change the core mechanic problems i mentioned above.

They mentioned that in the dev workshop, remember?

[dwqrf]

It affect everything in affinity range though.

But I agree it sucks for the player ; It should be a solo buff that stack with Adaptation ; but meanwhile, considering all things, it affects new players at no cost, companions, your summons, Archwing, Railjack?, and maybe even specters and hostage. Its not "nothing" ; but realistically, you often dismiss all of it for the impact it only has on your Warframe ; which is almost none if you have Adaptation (almost, because they don't stack and decay in the same way).

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, (PSN)Cephalon_Scarlet a dit :

How are you so quick to judge something you have not even played yet? Like the update isn't even out yet.

Caliban came out three years ago bro. Are you just getting out of Duviri ? It's about time !

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

Caliban is getting other survivability buffs, his passive I see as more of a buff for his summons and companions than him.
It would be nice if they improved it, but they said that isn't gonna happen.
 

[vFlitz]

Agreed. Even if Adaptation didn't exist to encroach on the functionality, 50% DR just isn't a worthwhile effect in Warframe's environment. In some other games it absolutely would be, but not Warframe.

If an enemy can kill you in a few hits, 50% DR doubles the amount of hits. But stay in the mission for 10 or so more minutes and the enemies scale enough to put you back at square one. There's a reason why the staple for DR abilities is 90%, which is 5 times more effective, and those stack with Adaptation.

And the passive isn't even a real 50% DR, much like Adaptation isn't a real 90%.

On top of that, Caliban's kit is biased more towards shield-gating than tanking, so the passive doesn't really synergize with it.

[Numerounius]

I think you are looking way too much into this.

20 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

-Not affected by mods

Isn't this true of all stated passives?

23 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

-No gain from damage over time

I'm not seeing what the sucks part about this is? There are other passives that only affect one aspect out of many.

29 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

-Useless if adaptation is equipped/doesn't stack

This is the big key kicker for me. They are updating Nova's passive because a singular mod nullifies its existence. How in the world does that same precedent not also apply to Atlas and Caliban???

31 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

-Still get hit by the remaining 2/3rds of damage types per attack.

DR is still DR, I'm sick of people complaining that it isn't. People also don't value avoidance as much as they should.

32 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

So he basically has no passive if one of the most important mods in the game (Adaptation) is run by him or his teammates.

Mod space can be at a premium if built right. Removing it in favor of going all-in on nuke builds or something works. I've done this for other frames by utilizing their passive.

It is very possible to build without adaptation but the problem is running a rank 6 adaptation (8 capacity) isn't that much of a hit and able to slot in very easily if you are tight on space vs. something like PSF which is a whopping 16 capacity.

37 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

I really thought they'd address that pretty glaring oversight, but no, "Caliban’s Passive is virtually unchanged"
Pablo cooked on everything else though, this just seems like a pretty obvious space for improvement.

Yeah this was like complaint numero uno even before we got full details. During the devstream reveal for Caliban they even had the gall to point out it didn't stack with Adaptation when left everyone confused about what the point of the passive even was. Which continued into Caliban's release. They aren't addressing feedback with these Caliban updates by leaving the passive unchanged except for updating a minor fix with it.

I also really hope they fix it before release by giving it something of significance.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Let's just skip a few days forward here:

- Forum member today: THIS SUCKS BEFORE I EVEN GET TO TRY IT!!

- Update Releases

- Forum Member on update day: ............ (They were never heard from again)

[Kaiga]

1 minute ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Let's just skip a few days forward here:

- Forum member today: THIS SUCKS BEFORE I EVEN GET TO TRY IT!!

- Update Releases

- Forum Member on update day: ............ (They were never heard from again)

This is like post #2 that seems to have missed  the part where they said the passive is going to be largely unchanged.
Was that not highlighted enough? We're playing with the update version of the passive. That's the complaint.

If by some magic they happen to indeed give caliban a useful passive, it will probably be because of feedback like this, in response to the proposed (non)changes.

[tel__arin]

As a volt main i need to say, he has a very nice passive i want it.  

[Quest]

39 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

On top of that, Caliban's kit is biased more towards shield-gating than tanking, so the passive doesn't really synergize with it.

this is kind of what i was worried about and i think it will remain true post-rework

[Traumtulpe]

47 minutes ago, tel__arin said:

As a volt main i need to say, he has a very nice passive i want it.  

That's a fair point. There's like 30 warframes that would like to trade passives with Caliban lol!

It *is* lame how Adaptation *completely* replaces his passive, but on a lot of builds I have no space for Adaptation (for example on Volt!) so it would still be nice to have.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Its intentional. Its to remind players what the rest of Caliban's kit used to be like, in the past, and how things are different now. Better, more hopeful, more effective. Now Caliban is like many, many other Warframes, great abilities, great Warframes, memorable even, but with bad, or useless passives. Its a Legacy passive, a monument to the dark forgotten Caliban ages. New Caliban experience, same old useless passive. The kids will love it! Marketing 101! 

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Kaiga said:

No gain from damage over time

[edit:  derp, I need to look at this more. :/ ]

* * *

As far as the main part of the  topic goes, I wish it stacked with Adaptation in a minor way. 92.5% would be great.  Although even if it stayed at 90 but went to 15% per hit and inherited Adaptation's duration, I'd be pretty satisfied.

I'm not totally dissatisfied now, to be honest.  I don't use Adaptation on him.  Minion aggro and casual shield gating do the heavy lifting obviously, but his passive contributes some padding.

Since I do  end up relying in shieldgate a fair amount, the  change they're making so that he can still build up stacks while invulnerable will be an improvement.

Edited 12 hours ago by Tiltskillet

[0_The_F00l]

It's ok as far as a passive goes , not to mention it is provided to everyone in range.

I don't run adaptation on my Caliban and he can survive anything I throw at him well enough , but under no circumstances is he tanky. Adaptation works better on frames that already have some form of DR. 

(Side note , it's not 50% DR , it's resistance to a specific element , so the actual DR is usually lower)

[Karyst]

9 hours ago, vFlitz said:

Agreed. Even if Adaptation didn't exist to encroach on the functionality, 50% DR just isn't a worthwhile effect in Warframe's environment. In some other games it absolutely would be, but not Warframe.

If an enemy can kill you in a few hits, 50% DR doubles the amount of hits. But stay in the mission for 10 or so more minutes and the enemies scale enough to put you back at square one. There's a reason why the staple for DR abilities is 90%, which is 5 times more effective, and those stack with Adaptation.

And the passive isn't even a real 50% DR, much like Adaptation isn't a real 90%.

On top of that, Caliban's kit is biased more towards shield-gating than tanking, so the passive doesn't really synergize with it.

You keep talking like Caliban can't spawn a single ally and is all by himself in every mission. 

[Prof-Dante]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Cephalon_Scarlet said:

How are you so quick to judge something you have not even played yet? Like the update isn't even out yet.

 

11 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Let's just skip a few days forward here:

- Forum member today: THIS SUCKS BEFORE I EVEN GET TO TRY IT!!

- Update Releases

- Forum Member on update day: ............ (They were never heard from again)

@Kaiga these two posts are proof for at least one of my two theories

1. the average number of Forum users have very low attention span, and would not and will not read the post before commenting.
2. Caliban was in such a terrible state people really thought he's a new Frame.
3. all of the above.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

11 hours ago, Kaiga said:

This is like post #2 that seems to have missed  the part where they said the passive is going to be largely unchanged.
Was that not highlighted enough? We're playing with the update version of the passive. That's the complaint.

If by some magic they happen to indeed give caliban a useful passive, it will probably be because of feedback like this, in response to the proposed (non)changes.

Well that, or you could notice that Caliban is now a self healing frame which means in combination with his passive he'll be harder to kill than 85% of the others.

But to be fair,  this was my error in judgement, trying to bring rationality and facts in here. Please continue.

[Prof-Dante]

To add a comment related to the thread.

I think Caliban's passive should be a little but more empowered than Adaptation. in the way it stacks resistances at least.
Sentient get a damage resistance to the highest damage type from the weapon's source, and when it's maxed out they go for the next type.

caliban should have this sort of stacking.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

11 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

 

@Kaiga these two posts are proof for at least one of my two theories

1. the average number of Forum users have very low attention span, and would not and will not read the post before commenting.
2. Caliban was in such a terrible state people really thought he's a new Frame.
3. all of the above.

Or, there are people who actually read the Workshop, noticed the passive will be working alongside the other changes to Calibans powers, and for some strange reason you felt the need to advertise that you aren't one of them.

"It's not fair! Caliban needs a better Adaptation! I mean yes, he can now heal himself and his shields, yes, he can now lift an unlimited amount of enemies all at once who now can't attack you, and yes, one of his Sentient Summons literally pulls aggro away from Caliban, but I need better Adaptation because........ well because!"

What a silly, silly person.

[Prof-Dante]

1 minute ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Or, there are people who actually read the Workshop, noticed the passive will be working alongside the other changes to Calibans powers, and for some strange reason you felt the need to advertise that you aren't one of them.

"It's not fair! Caliban needs a better Adaptation! I mean yes, he can now heal himself and his shields, yes, he can now lift an unlimited amount of enemies all at once who now can't attack you, and yes, one of his Sentient Summons literally pulls aggro away from Caliban, but I need better Adaptation because........ well because!"

What a silly, silly person.

I apologize, didn't mean to try to make a scene or out you guys...I just really have bad experience with some forum comments who can't be bothered reading the thread yet judge based on their abridged imagined understanding anyway...thought this was the case.

I guess you're right if your point was to see how the passive, which we can currently experience, fares with his the changes which we currently can't...and that's fair.
I'm not against the number, it's 50% adaptation for all allies, that's really strong, I just feel like the idea of it not stacking with Adaptation multiplicatively, a weird choice...all sources of Damage reduction in the game stack with adaptation, most of them anyway. 

[SneakyErvin]

It's a free mitigation bonus that extends to allies within affinity range. As someone that never slots adaptation this is a nice passive since it also benefits companions, summons and other things. And those do not exactly have a chocolate box full of options to pick from in order to get more durable.

So look at it this way. If you really find that you need all of what adaptation provides, slot it, you'll still have the passive providing what it does to your companions, summons and so on, and every player not caring about adaptation aswell.

[vFlitz]

3 hours ago, Karyst said:

You keep talking like Caliban can't spawn a single ally and is all by himself in every mission. 

The benefit gained getting outscaled by enemies in just a short while applies as much to everyone around as it does to Caliban. When it gets to the point where the summons get shredded, do you think it makes a tangible difference whether I have to resummon them every 2 seconds or every 4 seconds?

11 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's a fair point. There's like 30 warframes that would like to trade passives with Caliban lol!

Not really. Caliban's passive looks better on paper, but its actual impact on gameplay past early game misisons is only barely more than nothing. Whether you make loud farts when falling from a height like Rhino or have Caliban's passive, you'll never feel a difference.

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Or, there are people who actually read the Workshop, noticed the passive will be working alongside the other changes to Calibans powers, and for some strange reason you felt the need to advertise that you aren't one of them.

"It's not fair! Caliban needs a better Adaptation! I mean yes, he can now heal himself and his shields, yes, he can now lift an unlimited amount of enemies all at once who now can't attack you, and yes, one of his Sentient Summons literally pulls aggro away from Caliban, but I need better Adaptation because........ well because!"

What a silly, silly person.

Stop embarrassing yourself. Caliban always had distracting enemies and shield regen from his summons as well as token healing from Razor Gyre, the latter getting only slightly less useless and still being the designated Helminth fodder in his kit changes nothing in the equation. People rightfully called his passive bad then and it still remains that now.

I don't even think he should have adaptation as his passive to begin with. Something that interacts with Tau status would be far more interesting now. He has no built-in ways to capitalize on status vulnerability on enemies like Dante does, so the new status that only he can apply is as useful to his as it is to everyone else. More specialization in this field would make it feel much more unique.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

I apologize, didn't mean to try to make a scene or out you guys...I just really have bad experience with some forum comments who can't be bothered reading the thread yet judge based on their abridged imagined understanding anyway...thought this was the case.

I guess you're right if your point was to see how the passive, which we can currently experience, fares with his the changes which we currently can't...and that's fair.
I'm not against the number, it's 50% adaptation for all allies, that's really strong, I just feel like the idea of it not stacking with Adaptation multiplicatively, a weird choice...all sources of Damage reduction in the game stack with adaptation, most of them anyway. 

My apologies too then, you aren't as silly as you first seemed. Normally the forums is packed with folks unable to see things from a different perspective, even despite bringing facts/sense to the table. Good to see one who can. It's best though not to generalise/lump together anyone who disagrees with a thread, I have no idea what the others' points were or if they even made sense, but having read the Workshop I know my own did.

But yeah, Calibans passive seems like it would be too powerful if it were a full 1:1 with Adaptation. Obviously you can use that mod, but it has a cost then.

Getting half damage from certain attacks + Healing yourself + Healing Shields + Shield Regen from summons + immobilising every enemy surrounding you + aggro pulled by your summons, seems like enough. It actually honestly seems like too much. (Touch wood) but I'm half expecting a nerf to something. Caliban might just be an A -> S Tier frame with all of that plus Armor Strip in his repertoire.